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Author Topic: UCE 500 cams on AVL 500 ??  (Read 1352 times)

TejK

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UCE 500 cams on AVL 500 ??
« on: November 22, 2013, 05:56:20 AM »
 Hi,
While awaiting the S cams, the urge to experiment seems to have taken over . Every time I see something new I end up wondering if this can be done - and more importantly will it be beneficial.

So the latest though which came to my mind was " Can the cams from the Classic (UCE model)  500 be used on the AVL 500 and will it improve the performance??"

The cams for the Classic seem to have smoother profile that the stock AVL cams and this thought keeps coming to me again and again - try it out. However, since I now have a pretty reliable running bike, I thought of bouncing off the idea with the experts here and see if anyone has tried out this before. :-\

Do let me know what you think.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2013, 01:39:28 PM by TejK »

Bullet Whisperer

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Re: Classic 500 cams on AVL 500 ??
« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2013, 09:52:09 AM »
Hi TejK,
 Yes you can do this and gain some midrange and top end power [a couple of horsepower can be found], but be carefull to make sure they are timed in a manner so as not to make the valves contact the piston. Also, these cams will not fix the inlet valve 'bounce' at around 5,800 RPM, as I found out when I tried these cams and several other types as well, before discovering the 'S' type worked the best out of them all.
 Worth trying, though, as the 'Classic' type cams are readily available and very cheap compared to what I have to charge for the 'S' types, by the time I get them.
 B.W.

dampking

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Re: Classic 500 cams on AVL 500 ??
« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2013, 09:55:50 AM »
Paul I think Tej is talking about UCE500's cams. Here in India UCE's have a variant called "Classic", they come in 350 and 500cc version.

TejK

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Re: Classic 500 cams on AVL 500 ??
« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2013, 01:37:48 PM »
Hi BW,
I have tried the CI cams on my bike any though there is a definite improvement, I
switched back to the original cams as the top end speed remained pretty much the same. I think the wait and the price for the S cams will be worth it. Where its been around 6 months, whats a few more months till I get those :)

Dampking is right, I was actually referring to the UCE cams ( regret the misc description on my part).

Have you tried those by any chance??

PS: I have updated the subject
« Last Edit: November 22, 2013, 01:40:55 PM by TejK »

ace.cafe

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Re: UCE 500 cams on AVL 500 ??
« Reply #4 on: November 22, 2013, 01:43:50 PM »
UCE cams will not work on an AVL.
The UCE has roller profile cams , and I think the  cam gears are different too.
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Re: UCE 500 cams on AVL 500 ??
« Reply #5 on: November 22, 2013, 01:46:56 PM »
I would take Ace's advice here. Believe it or not, TejK, I have had absolutely nothing to do with the UCE bikes [I don't think I have been any closer than a few feet away from the few I have seen]
 B.W.

TejK

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Re: UCE 500 cams on AVL 500 ??
« Reply #6 on: November 23, 2013, 05:57:15 AM »
Ah Well ! So much for that idea. :P

Now to continue the wait for 'S' ones ;)

TejK

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Re: UCE 500 cams on AVL 500 ??
« Reply #7 on: November 24, 2013, 05:18:03 PM »
In any case , just a comparative shot of the exhaust cams for both. 

In the meanwhile, I might grind the original AVL cams base circle ground off by 1-2 mm and try those out on my 500 AVL bike.

1. Pic side by side
2. lobes comparative
« Last Edit: November 24, 2013, 05:20:52 PM by TejK »

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Re: UCE 500 cams on AVL 500 ??
« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2013, 07:04:50 PM »
I assume the one on the left of the first pic is a uce type, TejK? I have heard of the AVL cams being used as 'blanks' to make performance cams for the 'Iron' type Bullets, as there is plenty of material in them to achieve that. [just edited a possible clanger, but the pitch of the cam gear teeth look different to each other in that first pic]
 B.W.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2013, 07:08:35 PM by Bullet Whisperer »

TejK

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Re: UCE 500 cams on AVL 500 ??
« Reply #9 on: November 25, 2013, 06:20:02 AM »
Hi Pail/BW,
Yes the one on the left is an AVL cam and the rounded lobe is the UCE cam. I have heard of people reprofiling the AVL cams for the CI engine. Unless done precisely, I am sure the lobes will end up with different cam timings than stock. However, haven't met anyone yet who has done so. The teeth on the cams are longer for the UCE and the pitch will be different for sure.

In the meanwhile, I had a spare set of AVL cams which on which I am filing/grinding off the base circle (painstakingly slow work) by 1.5 mm just as an experiment. I am aiming to have a slightly higher lift for the on the valves without altering the lobes. The slight change will definitely increase the lift and also the duration. I will have to check the base circle run-out very carefully to ensure uniform metal removal and flatness of the cam lobe surfaces ( w.rt. the follower).

I just can't help it - can't keep my hands off her and just need an excuse to touch her. And if I touch her at the right places, she just loves it and goes like a Bullet :)

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Re: UCE 500 cams on AVL 500 ??
« Reply #10 on: November 25, 2013, 01:42:12 PM »
Just curious, how do you anticipate to get more lift from the cam lobe by grinding it?  You can definitely achieve more duration by doing so, but in order to get more lift you need to add material to your cam lobe and then reshape it.  Are you by chance TIG'ing the lobes and reshaping them, or are you just working with what you already have there?

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ace.cafe

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Re: UCE 500 cams on AVL 500 ??
« Reply #11 on: November 25, 2013, 04:01:50 PM »
Just curious, how do you anticipate to get more lift from the cam lobe by grinding it?  You can definitely achieve more duration by doing so, but in order to get more lift you need to add material to your cam lobe and then reshape it.  Are you by chance TIG'ing the lobes and reshaping them, or are you just working with what you already have there?

Scottie

This can work to increase lift profile by reducing base circle, but it is a real shot in the dark, and would be considered "a hack job" by most mechanics.
However, in India, this is the kind of thing that is normal everyday practice.

I used to be horrified at hearing stories like this from India, but after a while I got de-sensitized to it. Like the guy who cuts off the skirts of his pistons with a hacksaw, and welds up his chambers without having any clue about what kind of effects it has, and fitting pistons into bores without knowing what the clearances are, and stuff like that.

Apparently, there is no clue about what effect this is going to have on the piston or the valve springs(which are already insufficient for the stock application, much less getting more lift), what any of this is actually going to do to the engine, etc, etc.

When I read stuff like this, I usually just quietly disassociate myself from the thread.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2013, 04:09:15 PM by ace.cafe »
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TejK

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Re: UCE 500 cams on AVL 500 ??
« Reply #12 on: November 25, 2013, 04:39:01 PM »
Hi Scottie,
I am no expert however, as I see it there are 2 ways of possibly increasing lift

1. Like you mentioned, adding material with welding onto the lobe top and regrinding. However, I don't think this is something I can try out as this would involve a lot of work and the results may not be controllable. And I don't have a welder with me.

2. The other option is to remove some material from the cam base circle which I can manage quite easily. And since i Had the spare cams sitting around, I tried it out. The logic or math behind it is something like this -  A cam is a bump on a circle. When the lifter is riding on the circle, it's at zero lift. As the cam rotates, the lifter sides over the bump. Regrinding a cam is making the circle smaller, in order to make the bump bigger.

Have made an illustration to explain. Just imagine the follower starting from rest at the new base circle and getting lifted higher.

Chuck D

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Re: UCE 500 cams on AVL 500 ??
« Reply #13 on: November 25, 2013, 06:11:54 PM »
I see.
So... It's addition by subtraction.
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TejK

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Re: UCE 500 cams on AVL 500 ??
« Reply #14 on: November 25, 2013, 06:22:57 PM »
I don't subscribe to this method myself , however, I am just experimenting and have no idea what the results will be. It might just be a classic fail.

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Re: UCE 500 cams on AVL 500 ??
« Reply #15 on: November 25, 2013, 07:08:27 PM »
I don't subscribe to this method myself , however, I am just experimenting and have no idea what the results will be. It might just be a classic fail.

Its better to do an informed experiment. I would encourage you to listen to what Ace.Cafe is indicating i.e. valvegear and its ability to tolerate the lift, piston clearance etc. You might end up creating a bigger problem for yourself. 

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Re: UCE 500 cams on AVL 500 ??
« Reply #16 on: November 25, 2013, 07:10:32 PM »
I see.
So... It's addition by subtraction.

Yes, the tappets could be adjusted to compensate for the decreased base circle diameter .......but Ace is pointing at something very important.

TejK

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Re: UCE 500 cams on AVL 500 ??
« Reply #17 on: November 26, 2013, 05:18:02 AM »
I understand the concern and well I guess its too much of a risk with the brilliantly running motor that I have right now. I might give it a pass at the moment.

However, just curious - isn't this the same thing which happen when we use the Cast iron engine cams in the AVL with the small base circle and which results in a higher lift on the same.

ace.cafe

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Re: UCE 500 cams on AVL 500 ??
« Reply #18 on: November 26, 2013, 11:38:38 AM »
I understand the concern and well I guess its too much of a risk with the brilliantly running motor that I have right now. I might give it a pass at the moment.

However, just curious - isn't this the same thing which happen when we use the Cast iron engine cams in the AVL with the small base circle and which results in a higher lift on the same.

The Iron Barrel cams are smaller base circle, yes.
However, they are ground with all the necessary attributes to work as a proper cam in a valve train.

A cam is not just a bump on a wheel. There is the base circle, lash ramps, flanks, nose, included on the cam shape which have functions defined by multiple polynomial curves. These curves translate the progressively different lift rates at various portions of the lift cycle which can be controlled by the valve springs.  The lash ramps have a certain length and lift acceleration, so that the lash is taken up gently, and doesn't hammer the valve train. The  lift cycle is then begun at a slow acceleration, gradually increasing with different mathematical curves blended together to a smooth acceleration curve, and then after reaching the maximum lift rate part-way along the flank, it gradually begins to reduce the lift rate so that it can get over the nose without flinging the valve out of contact. Additionally, flat tappet cams have a slight taper on the lobe and they are not "flat". This taper causes the tappet to spin during operation, so that it has a better wear life.  And the surface is hardened to a high hardness for wear resistance under heavy loading, and after any re-shaping might be done by a professional grinder, the surface is re-hardened to restore the wear resistance of the metal surface.
The reason that they use a cam grinder to do this grinding is because these contours must perfectly follow the mathematical curves programmed into it, and also grind a perfectly smooth contoured surface. This surface which is required cannot be met with normal machine cutting tools, much less a hand file. It needs a precision grinding machine. A cam in an engine is a very complicated piece of engineering that requires specialty knowledge to design, and special tooling to make

None of these geometrical attributes are met by "hand filing" the cam down, and if your diagram was any indication, the plan was to file down practically everything but the nose.
So no, it is not at all the same as using the Iron Barrel cams. The Iron Barrel cams may be somewhat crude, but at least they have the necessary design attributes.

The bottom line is that you can't just go filing these things down in your workshop and expect decent results. It might "work" in terms that the engine will go around and still run, but there will be problems associated with it which may not be initially apparent.

On top of that, the springs may not be(probably are not) able to handle the more rapid accelerations of a faster lift cam, and also might not have enough room between the coils to take that added lift without hitting coil bind. If you have not measured this, then you don't know. And we already know that the AVL has horrible valve springs that can't even control the valve properly in a normal application with normal cams. Then, we would have to see if there is enough room to lift the valve that much without hitting the valve guide. We have to measure that.  Then we have to measure if the valve is going to hit the piston as it goes over TDC.

There's just a lot more to this than you might think.
I can spec-out a cam with all the necessary parameters, but I go to a cam grinder to get it made. I wouldn't try to re-profile a cam, and I have a full CNC machine shop at my disposal.

« Last Edit: November 26, 2013, 12:24:11 PM by ace.cafe »
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head . Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available .  AVL mods. Redditch 700/750 Twin mods. UCE kit soon.

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TejK

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Re: UCE 500 cams on AVL 500 ??
« Reply #19 on: November 27, 2013, 04:35:04 AM »
Thank Ace for putting things in perspective ! I guess its too much of work and needs very specialised equipment.





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Re: UCE 500 cams on AVL 500 ??
« Reply #20 on: November 27, 2013, 01:17:07 PM »
Tejk - If you are interested in custom camshaft work, there is a gentleman in BC Canada that specializes in camshaft RE-profiling.  I spoke with him about my project and guess what?  He custom fabbed his own tooling for the Bullet camshafts (for one of his customers) and he is just itching to do some more RE cams.  He has over 3000 cam lobe profiles to choose from in his CAD program.  You just need to call him up and talk to him.  I know for my twin camshafts (2 cams, 2 lobes each) he was only going to charge me $300 a cam I believe (price may have been for the pair but I can't remember).

The name of the Company is Colt Cams.  There is a contact phone # on the website.

http://coltcams.com/

The name of the Gentleman you want to talk to is Jeff.  He seems to be very educated at his line of work and when I last spoke with him he was very excited to use his RE tooling again.

Scottie

EDIT:  You may want to call him soon depending on how interested you are in this.  This is from their website.
Quote
We're taking a little R&R and enjoying some time with family and friends. The shop will be closed December 9th, and will be back in the shop on Thursday, January 2nd, 2014.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2013, 01:19:44 PM by Scottie J »
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TejK

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Re: UCE 500 cams on AVL 500 ??
« Reply #21 on: November 28, 2013, 06:22:02 AM »
Thanks Scottie,

I am waiting for the next possible available 'S' cams if BW has my name on the list.

However, I will get in touch with Colt cams to understand what he cam do with the cores I can send him.

High On Octane

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Re: UCE 500 cams on AVL 500 ??
« Reply #22 on: November 28, 2013, 02:56:18 PM »
Basically Jeff does the build-and-mill technique at Colt Cams.  He TIG welds the cam lobes to build up the materials, then puts them in the CNC machine and completely redesigns to cam profile to what ever specs you'd like.  I'm not sure what profile he used for his customers RE he did, but I do know he spent a bit of time researching it.

Scottie
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TejK

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Re: UCE 500 cams on AVL 500 ??
« Reply #23 on: December 24, 2013, 07:09:43 AM »
Basically Jeff does the build-and-mill technique at Colt Cams.  He TIG welds the cam lobes to build up the materials, then puts them in the CNC machine and completely redesigns to cam profile to what ever specs you'd like.  I'm not sure what profile he used for his customers RE he did, but I do know he spent a bit of time researching it.

Scottie

Hi Scottie,
I tried reaching him however it seems he is on a holiday till next year. In any case , I think i maybe getting the S cams soon.

Wish you a merry Christmas and a happy new year !!

High On Octane

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Re: UCE 500 cams on AVL 500 ??
« Reply #24 on: December 24, 2013, 01:26:02 PM »
Merry Christmas!
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ace.cafe

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Re: UCE 500 cams on AVL 500 ??
« Reply #25 on: December 25, 2013, 02:20:35 PM »
Hi Scottie,
I tried reaching him however it seems he is on a holiday till next year. In any case , I think i maybe getting the S cams soon.

Wish you a merry Christmas and a happy new year !!

The thing about the S Cams is that they have been tested and proven to work with the existing valve springs to overcome the inherent issues that were preventing higher revving. This is a big advantage.
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head . Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available .  AVL mods. Redditch 700/750 Twin mods. UCE kit soon.

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High On Octane

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Re: UCE 500 cams on AVL 500 ??
« Reply #26 on: December 25, 2013, 02:25:59 PM »
The thing about the S Cams is that they have been tested and proven to work with the existing valve springs to overcome the inherent issues that were preventing higher revving. This is a big advantage.

That's why YOU need to talk to him and build the best Ace!

Don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking the S Cams, they obviously totally rock!  I'm just saying it would be nice to have a reliable performance supplier here in North America instead of everything coming from Europe.  Those damn exchange rates are ridiculous.
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ace.cafe

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Re: UCE 500 cams on AVL 500 ??
« Reply #27 on: December 25, 2013, 02:51:01 PM »
That's why YOU need to talk to him and build the best Ace!

Don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking the S Cams, they obviously totally rock!  I'm just saying it would be nice to have a reliable performance supplier here in North America instead of everything coming from Europe.  Those damn exchange rates are ridiculous.

I would only get into something like that with a complete engine kit like we have for the Fireball.
But I will talk to that guy about some other stuff when he gets back.
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head . Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available .  AVL mods. Redditch 700/750 Twin mods. UCE kit soon.

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dampking

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Re: UCE 500 cams on AVL 500 ??
« Reply #28 on: December 25, 2013, 02:56:00 PM »
That's why YOU need to talk to him and build the best Ace!

Don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking the S Cams, they obviously totally rock!  I'm just saying it would be nice to have a reliable performance supplier here in North America instead of everything coming from Europe.  Those damn exchange rates are ridiculous.

Exchange rates KILL us Indians :P

TejK

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Re: UCE 500 cams on AVL 500 ??
« Reply #29 on: December 26, 2013, 06:54:18 AM »
Exchange rates KILL us Indians :P

On the plus side 'Royal Enfield' is 'Made in India' so other things work out well for India !!  :D

dampking

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Re: UCE 500 cams on AVL 500 ??
« Reply #30 on: December 26, 2013, 10:19:23 AM »
Haha Yeah! :D