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Author Topic: How to adjust timing?  (Read 2224 times)

High On Octane

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Re: How to adjust timing?
« Reply #15 on: December 03, 2013, 08:33:26 PM »
I'm not familiar with your points set up but you should be able to adjust the timing in the points plate itself.  Don't give up!  You're almost there!

Scottie
Scottie J  ~  Bulldog Kustoms Denver  ~  1958 Enfield/Indian Trailblazer  ~  1959 Enfield/Indian Chief

AgentX

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Re: How to adjust timing?
« Reply #16 on: December 03, 2013, 10:09:54 PM »
Appreciate the timing input! Went out this morning and kicked it over a few times and even messed with the electronic ignition.

Wait, so do you have points or a retro-fitted electronic ignition of some kind?

Blltrdr

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Re: How to adjust timing?
« Reply #17 on: December 04, 2013, 12:12:04 AM »
A couple posts above coolgoose2 gave a pretty good description of what you need to do to get it set up for your starting point. Using the lamp as suggested will get you in the ballpark as far as static timed, from there you will have to advance the timing plate slightly and then take it for a spin up an incline in a higher gear and listen for ping. You want to advance it till you get a little ping on your uphill runs in your higher gear then back off slightly so there is little or no ping when lugging slightly uphill. At this point you will have your timing optimized. I hope you have a manual. If not get yourself a copy of the Snidal manual.
2003 Classic 500 5 spd
1992 Kawasaki ZG 1200 Voyager XII
1977 Yamaha XS 360-2D (Cafe Project)

coolgoose2

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Re: How to adjust timing?
« Reply #18 on: December 04, 2013, 04:55:42 AM »
Old Monk is good.. ;) ;D
It solves lot of issues  :o :P

btw, in case of adjustment of timing in 'dynamic' way,  tune the carburetor first. You may need to change/clean air filter and carburetor (For details on cleaning carburetor refer this link
http://urge2blabber.blogspot.in/2008/05/cleaning-carburettor.html
In normal cases, checking float bowl will tell us whether it needs cleaning or not. If float bowl is clean, don't mess with it.

Tuning the carburetor:-

I do it like this:-
 
1. Ride the bike for couple of kms or so ( to get engine just warm);
2. increase the idle (turn the idle screw clockwise) so that idle speed is increased to somewhat like riding at 45-50 kmph in fourth gear;
3. close the air-screw fully( turn it clockwise). Do it slowly.. don't strip the thread;
4. loosen the air screw slowly(turn it anti-clockwise)... real slowly... so that idle speed peaks..(this happens somewhere between one and a half to two full turns)
5. At that position of air-screw.. loosen the idle screw back to normal beat( turn it anti-clockwise)..
6. If your carb has a screw between carb and inlet manifold, tighten it.. Don't over tighten and strip the thread

Once the carburetor is tuned, (it is exactly NOT tuned, as your timing is out), adjust timing like this.
Bring the piston to TDC and check whether your lamp lights (or points just part). You don't need TDC finder for this.
How to adjust ignition timing, dynamically:-
1. Tune the carb as detailed above
2. Open the CB point cover
3. slightly loosen the two holding nuts
4. Start the bike
5. increase the idle speed..
6. Take the point plate fully clockwise.. beat will be very very slow.
7. slowly tap the condenser screw top with a screwdriver
8. At one point idle speed will peak..
9. make one small.. very small tap on the condenser
10. screw everything tight
11. decrease idle speed to normal beat

If you timing was far off, you may need to tune carburetor again (for this adjusted timing) and again set the timing correctly.

You will be rewarded with gentle start, clean beat and better mileage.

ride safe
« Last Edit: December 04, 2013, 05:02:15 AM by coolgoose2 »

316CMH

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Re: How to adjust timing?
« Reply #19 on: December 04, 2013, 11:17:17 AM »
Thanks a ton guys.  The "electronic" ignition I was referring to was the push start, thought maybe it would be easier than kicking it. I've put a new decompressor plunger in it, one thing I have noticed is that there doesn't appear to be any deflection on the battery meter while kicking it. If I don't use the decompression switch should I be able to kick it over and over or will it eventually build up to much pressure for this? Going back out today to work on it some more, hopefully I can figure something out. Thanks for all of your input this far.

AgentX

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Re: How to adjust timing?
« Reply #20 on: December 04, 2013, 01:28:43 PM »
Using the kicker multiple times won't "build up" pressure; as the engine goes through its cycle of operation the exhaust valve opens and lets out the previously-compressed air.  You'll get a compression stroke every time you go through the full engine cycle of operations, of course, but it's the same every time.

People do run these bikes without decompressors; you should be able to get it through the compression stroke without using it...but it's going to be a lot more difficult than with.  General advice from Snidal's manual is that you should be able to stand on the kicker during compression.

Was the ammeter ever deflecting?  If it's not with a standard points setup, you have a problem somewhere.  The deflection should happen as the points open.

High On Octane

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Re: How to adjust timing?
« Reply #21 on: December 04, 2013, 01:52:08 PM »
My twin is bored +.040 and has no decomp or ES.  I can kick start it on the 1st kick almost every time.  It's all in the tuning.

Scottie
Scottie J  ~  Bulldog Kustoms Denver  ~  1958 Enfield/Indian Trailblazer  ~  1959 Enfield/Indian Chief

GreenMachine

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Re: How to adjust timing?
« Reply #22 on: December 04, 2013, 03:38:18 PM »
Scottie:  + 1 on the tuning
Coolgoose: Is this the Zen of Enfield Maintenance that I always heard about or is it the Old Monk kicking in (small taps on the condensor ;D)...
Oh Magoo you done it again

ace.cafe

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Re: How to adjust timing?
« Reply #23 on: December 04, 2013, 04:01:56 PM »
Take this bike to somebody who knows how to jet it, time it, tune it, and make it run right.
Then you have a baseline that should be correct, IF the mechanic actually has a clue about what he's doing.

After that, you can take all these suggestions and use them to keep the bike in a properly running condition.

Clearly, you are way over your head with this, and it's better to get it put right by somebody in the know, and then learn about keeping it going right.

316CMH

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Re: How to adjust timing?
« Reply #24 on: December 04, 2013, 04:31:05 PM »
I agree with you ace. I think old boy that sold it to me seen me coming on this one.  Going to polish it up nice (I'm pretty experienced in that as I drive an '04 Vengeance chopper) and roll it down the sidewalk Christmas morning. Thanks again for all of the help and Happy Holidays.

Blltrdr

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Re: How to adjust timing?
« Reply #25 on: December 04, 2013, 04:33:14 PM »
I think Ace is partly right. If the intention is on giving the Bullet as a gift it would be marvelous to have it running in a tiptop manner. But I do recall this forums members helping many others over the years with little to no experience to work out their problems but that sometimes takes a very long time. The one thing I haven't figured out yet is if 316cmh has a manual to reference. If not, then c'mon man get a manual (preferably a Snidal). When I first got my Bullet there was no RE US forum to gather info and get questions answered. I had the factory manual and bought a Snidal manual right away. I researched the manuals front to back then back to front as I tinkered on my bike. Slowly but methodically I taught myself everything I needed to know to care for my bike. 316cmh may have little vested interest in the bike since this bike is intended as a gift and not keeper. All I can say is if you plan on giving this bike as a gift to your son make sure a manual is included. Hopefully everything can be sorted before Christmas. It is better to give (a running Bullet) than to receive (one that does not run). ;D
2003 Classic 500 5 spd
1992 Kawasaki ZG 1200 Voyager XII
1977 Yamaha XS 360-2D (Cafe Project)

316CMH

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Re: How to adjust timing?
« Reply #26 on: December 04, 2013, 04:58:43 PM »
Agreed, I wanted it to at least start. My son is 10 so we have a few years to work on it. I'll get the manuals and we can bob it out together. Again, thanks for yalls help.

Blltrdr

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Re: How to adjust timing?
« Reply #27 on: December 04, 2013, 05:41:15 PM »
Holy geez dad a Bullet! When I was your sons age I was rippin up the roads and trails with my '64 Honda CB 90. It was a great project for my dad and I to work on and really was my springboard for learning about and fixing anything and everything. Watching On any Sunday in the summer of 1971 and Evel Knievel on The Wide World of Sports started me down the path of two wheeled obsession. Hope your son catches the bug the way I did.
2003 Classic 500 5 spd
1992 Kawasaki ZG 1200 Voyager XII
1977 Yamaha XS 360-2D (Cafe Project)

baird4444

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Re: How to adjust timing?
« Reply #28 on: December 04, 2013, 05:42:10 PM »
I'm going to give you a totally different explanation of the timing
process that may be easier to understand. It is from the FAQ's on the
old DRS Cycle website from years gone by. Dan Holmes was rather long
winded at times but he DID give an easier explanation for the beginner
to understand....    - Mike 
  good luck, these bikes are as much for learning as they are for riding!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
How often should I check the timing on my Enfield ! What is the correct procedure ?
This is somewhat subjective . I would say checking the timing should be done on the average around a 1000 miles , now don't panic! Once the timing has been set correctly with a dial indicator mounted in the sparkplug hole, the next thing to do is make a permanent reference mark indexing the point plate and the distributor! Now do not realign the plate unneccesarily ever, all you have to do is clean your points. I use a point file or carbide sandpaper. Spray the points with contact cleaner, wipe clean & blow dry. Then gap the points to 16 thousandths! Timing is now set. Last but not least add a little dab of grease to the inside heel of the contact arm to lubricate the heel and minimize the wear. Increasing the gap advances the timing and closing it retards it. The ignition timing on a bullet is very easily set and even easier maintained. First , clean , gap and set points. Note the point cam is not always true in concentricity and the fact that it is centrifugal advance. It is very important to determine that the advance mechanism is not stuck and that you pick your spot to set the points (you need to recognize the spot for future reference to maintain point gap). I suggest that you pick a point off the ramp but just on the step and set the points at 15-16 thousandths (mark the spot). Once the point gap is set you now need to find top dead center on the compression stroke , this the same position that you would start the engine at. Here is where it gets a little more particular , since the gear train drives the distributor you need to back up from TDC to .8mm, always back in, if you miss go forward and back in again. If you are useing a TDC tool available from DRS Cycle for $10.00, you find TDC and then back up one little mark or about 1/32. Once you have arrived at this location the next step is to rotate the point plate so the points are just opening here, the better job you do of this the better the results. We use a buzz box, some people use a light, and others just eyeball it. Note, once you get the point plate set, all you have to do for a long, long time is maintain point gap, eccentric screws, slots, all that is unneccesary, the slot might make it handier, but if you loosen the retaining screws you can turn it by hand. The timing is very important for predictable idle and starting, as well as overall performance. However it is not really micrometer precise. It is more like a yardstick measurement. The only real precise way to time is dynamicly using a timing light. Static timing is low tech, and less time consuming. Easily done and very effective. ONCE the point plate is set and you find the timing is satisfactory, make a permanent mark, (Punch, nail, scratch ). This is the plate alignment mark, should you feel you need to take the plate out for some reason.
Every time anyone disturbs the plate they alter the timing unneccesarily. At some point in time, say when one replaces points or at extended intervals, the whole procedure should be repeated to compensate for wear. One should periodically look at the condenser to be sure it is not hitting on the advance, we have found this will cut the can on the condenser, then burn the points and heat up the coil to a point of failure.

"You can't drink all day if you don't start in the morning!! "
        -Cody Baird
'My dear you are ugly,
 but tomorrow I shall be sober and you will still be ugly'
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316CMH

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Re: How to adjust timing?
« Reply #29 on: December 04, 2013, 07:53:29 PM »
Thanks Baird! That sounds much simpler, gonna give it a go in the morning.
My son currently rides a Yamaha tt90, he's been riding sinc he was 5, with me always having at least one bike he's also gotten obsessed with them as well. He's really into bobbers which is why I bought this, figured it would be a good starter bike and project to chop. Kicking it over in front of him Christmas morning will be the icing on the cake for him.