HPRE

Menu

Members Rides

musket v-twin


in
Members Rides

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
July 25, 2014, 06:23:37 PM

Login with username, password and session length

 

Author Topic: Oogally Catch Bottle  (Read 192 times)

tooseevee

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 1094
  • Karma: 0
  • There Are No Truths Outside The Gates of Eden
Oogally Catch Bottle
« on: July 08, 2014, 02:11:38 PM »
      Well, I never wanted to do this, but now I have.

       Since last summer I've had my CC breather hose blowing down behind the transmission with the duck bill on.

       The last time I had to clean the whole mess off the center stand, etc., I decided I ain't doin' That no mo'. It hurts.

        So I went & found some Tygon tubing by the foot (had to go to 4 places before I found it. Most places now have it only in short lengths in an indestructible, bomb-proof, knife-proof plastic container) & ran it all the way to the rear inside the rear fender fastened to the clips that hold the wiring. On my first couple rides the center stand was now perfectly clean & the whole rear end was covered with wind-spread oil mist. It's amazing how far a few drops of oil can spread themselves.

        So. Sick of that, I pulled it all off & cleaned the bike (again). I now have a catch can that was originally a Sta-Bil bottle behind the vertical frame member. I haven't ridden with it yet, but I'm sure it will work out fine. After a few rides to check out how much oil is actually blowing per mile I'll spray it black. Also have to see if any oil mist blows out the top of the container. The hose is a fairly tight fit (the small clearance being a necessary vent) so it might be OK.

          I wish I could solve the whole problem, but I'm not biting off any more with this bike. My harley engine (early '77) has the same type CC breather on it with a small 2" filter vented to the atmosphere. Nothing ever comes out of it & it never drips. Neither did my previous 1980 FXS. The harley scavenging system worked for all the panheads & shovelheads until the last one in '84 1/2; why were these AVL engines built to blow oil?  Do the UCEs still blow oil? Why?

           PS: I still love this bike. If this doesn't work I'll do something else. Ya know what? I just might look for a container I can fit inside the left side case. Then I won't have to listen to : "What's THAT thing"?
« Last Edit: July 08, 2014, 02:18:36 PM by tooseevee »
2008 RE AVL Classic
1977 Shovelhead Hardtail Bobber

ace.cafe

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 7966
  • Karma: 0
  • World leaders in racing or performance Bullets
Re: Oogally Catch Bottle
« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2014, 02:50:49 PM »
That should work.
You will need to empty it occasionally.

The reason that the Iron Barrel and AVL models are sensitive to breather design is that they are dry sump engines with very small crankcase volume. So, when that piston descends, it is really pushing that whole 500cc volume down hard. Unfortunately, on the later Iron Barrel and all the AVL models, the breather system was re-designed to a much less effective one. As a result, there is always some positive crankcase pressure,  and this has some negative effects.

One helpful tactic is to only fill the oil tank to 1/2 or 3/4, and never to the full mark.

The UCE is a wet sump design with an integrated transmission inside the same engine case, and so it has way more crankcase internal volume. The pumping pressures are much less inside this engine, and so it is less likely to eject much atomized oil out the breather tube. Also, the UCE has a breather baffle to act as an air/oil separator which can trap most oil that may be trying to get out.

Harleys have an integral one-way valve in their breather system, like the older Iron Barrel Bullets have with the duckbill. That is the kind of breather which can actually work, although some oil mist can still escape.

The catch can acts as an air/ oil separator at the end of the line, and it should catch just about all of it.
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head Conversion. Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available anywhere.  AVL mods available. UCE kit coming.

Please visit my new website:
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/AcePerformanceBullets/

Arizoni

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 4144
  • Karma: 0
  • "But it's a dry heat here in Arizona
Re: Oogally Catch Bottle
« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2014, 11:31:49 PM »
I wonder if putting a glass/metal fuel filter in that vertical stretch of tubing might dissuade much of the oil in the mist from getting to the catch bottle?

The 1999 Miata vents its crankcase vent into a small passage in the intake manifold and this can get clogged up.  To prevent this, I installed one of these fuel filters between the cam cover and the manifold.

The filter screen did seem to catch most of the oil mist and cause it to condense inside the filter body.
To improve this I added a very thin layer of cotton wrapped around the outside of the screen inside the filter body and it's done its job for over 40000 miles by just replacing the cotton every so often.

The filters look like this

http://www.amazon.com/Mr-Gasket-9706-Universal-Clearview/dp/B00068OR8M

It might be the large amount of oil being discharged would be too much for the fuel filter to trap, but it's a thought. :)
Jim
2011 G5 Deluxe
1999 Miata 10th Anniversary

azcatfan

  • Grease Monkey
  • ****
  • Posts: 400
  • Karma: 0
  • 2002 Bullet ES
Re: Oogally Catch Bottle
« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2014, 01:49:17 AM »
Hey, or you could stylize the container.  Maybe a stainless water bottle or a camping flask.  Camping flask would look good in stainless, polished or painted, or could be small enough to hide away.  You could also tap a plug into the bottom for easy draining...  Just a thought...

-2002 Bullet ES Up-Jetted with Ace Air Canister and punched HD Exhaust.

DanB

  • Grease Monkey
  • ****
  • Posts: 428
  • Karma: 0
Re: Oogally Catch Bottle
« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2014, 03:53:44 AM »
Suppose I were an idiot, and suppose I were a member of Congress; but I repeat myself. ... Mark Twain
2006 AVL Electra

ace.cafe

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 7966
  • Karma: 0
  • World leaders in racing or performance Bullets
Re: Oogally Catch Bottle
« Reply #5 on: July 09, 2014, 11:45:06 AM »
I saw someone did a fleabay special. How about something like this?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/CHROME-POLISHED-ALUMINUM-OIL-RESERVOIR-CATCH-CAN-TANK-WITH-BREATHER-FILTER-/151097046364?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item232e15f55c&vxp=mtr

I just did a search for oil catch can....

That actually looks like a pretty nice catch can kit for cheap.

However, regarding some technical matters, this breather needs to have a duckbill or other one-way valve in the hose before(or at) the catch can. It needs to have an outlet vent to the atmosphere. It cannot be sealed closed.
This vent would only see out-flow. It would never see any in-flow in a properly designed breather system. So, I see no need for any filters.
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head Conversion. Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available anywhere.  AVL mods available. UCE kit coming.

Please visit my new website:
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/AcePerformanceBullets/

tooseevee

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 1094
  • Karma: 0
  • There Are No Truths Outside The Gates of Eden
Re: Oogally Catch Bottle
« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2014, 12:11:50 PM »
I saw someone did a fleabay special. How about something like this?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/CHROME-POLISHED-ALUMINUM-OIL-RESERVOIR-CATCH-CAN-TANK-WITH-BREATHER-FILTER-/151097046364?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item232e15f55c&vxp=mtr

I just did a search for oil catch can....

            That's very cool & pretty & shiny, but the old, empty Sta-Bil bottle was so Cheap !!   ;) ;) :)

             Plus it's recycling, man. I'm not throwing away plastic & destroying the world  ;) ;)
2008 RE AVL Classic
1977 Shovelhead Hardtail Bobber

tooseevee

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 1094
  • Karma: 0
  • There Are No Truths Outside The Gates of Eden
Re: Oogally Catch Bottle
« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2014, 01:40:35 PM »
That should work.
You will need to empty it occasionally.
One helpful tactic is to only fill the oil tank to 1/2 or 3/4, and never to the full mark.


           I don't mind emptying it a couple times a season. No problem. Rather that than oil all over some part of the bike all the time no matter where you run the end of the hose.

           Not that I would do it, but talk a little about what would go on if you plugged the hose right back into the timing case fitting.

           I keep my oil level just a hair above 1/2 all the time. I check it two or three minutes after it's been running. It's always about the same between changes. I don't think there's any oil problem in these engines that the engine itself won't solve by blowing it out all over the bike or in the case of a stock system, blow it all over your air filter to the point of fouling the plug & shutting the engine down after a while.

           I would guess these engines would be perfectly fine if oil showed anywhere on the end of the stick.
2008 RE AVL Classic
1977 Shovelhead Hardtail Bobber

ace.cafe

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 7966
  • Karma: 0
  • World leaders in racing or performance Bullets
Re: Oogally Catch Bottle
« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2014, 02:43:04 PM »
Okay, if you plug the breather into the timing case nipple, it closes the breathing loop, and loses any venting.
The result is excessive internal pressure build-up, increased pumping losses, reduction of power, increased engine temps, probably some newly sprung oil leaks from this internal pressure, possible loss of power from this pressure unseating the rings during operation,  and probably worse fuel economy.
At some point, eventually it might even pop the hose off the nipple, or burst it open. Not immediately, but on a long, hard riding day it might.
All engines must vent. There are some methods which are better than others.

I posted some info pertinent to the AVL on this subject on the other thread you raised some questions in, on the iron barrel forum.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2014, 02:46:16 PM by ace.cafe »
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head Conversion. Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available anywhere.  AVL mods available. UCE kit coming.

Please visit my new website:
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/AcePerformanceBullets/

tooseevee

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 1094
  • Karma: 0
  • There Are No Truths Outside The Gates of Eden
Re: Oogally Catch Bottle
« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2014, 06:33:37 PM »
Okay, if you plug the breather into the timing case nipple, it closes the breathing loop, and loses any venting.
The result is excessive internal pressure build-up, increased pumping losses, reduction of power, increased engine temps, probably some newly sprung oil leaks from this internal pressure, possible loss of power from this pressure unseating the rings during operation,  and probably worse fuel economy.
At some point, eventually it might even pop the hose off the nipple, or burst it open. Not immediately, but on a long, hard riding day it might.
All engines must vent. There are some methods which are better than others.

I posted some info pertinent to the AVL on this subject on the other thread you raised some questions in, on the iron barrel forum.

            Beautiful   :) 

             That's azzackly what I expected to hear   :) ;)
2008 RE AVL Classic
1977 Shovelhead Hardtail Bobber