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Author Topic: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread  (Read 7959 times)

tooseevee

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Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
« Reply #105 on: May 07, 2014, 10:19:15 PM »
Looks good!  How did you do that?

           Spray with VHT High Temp Wrinkle Plus.

            Shoot 3 coats a full 5 minutes apart, each moving in a different direction. Lay it on heavy & shiny, but not to the point of runs which is easy here because the surfaces are horizontal. Be sure on the 5 minutes between coats, time it.

             Put it away & don't even look at it for 24 hours. Don't put it in the oven, don't hair dryer it, don't put it in the sun. The slower it cools, the better the wrinkles.

             24 hours after you look at all pretty wrinkles, put it in a 200 degree oven for an hour. I did a whole 80 inch shovel harley like this in the mid-80s. Practically every piece of the whole bike except the frame, handlebars, rear fender, gas tanks & pipes was wrinkle blacked on that bike. The tanks & fender were House of Kolors Black Black lacquer, the frame was powder coated black & the pipes were what was called Black Chrome then. It all still looked great (some had greyed a little) when I sold it in 1998 after two days in Walneck's.

           Here are the tanks from that bike:
2008 ACE Head AVL Classic
1977 Shovelhead Hardtail Bobber

Arizoni

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Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
« Reply #106 on: May 08, 2014, 12:31:21 AM »
When you get everything together and start riding it, look for signs of overheating.
If there are any it might be due to your wrinkle paint job.

There are flat black paints made for use on BBQ's and wood burning stoves that have almost no insulating qualities so they will work great on cylinder fins.  The heat will pass right thru them.

The wrinkle paint being used is good up to temperatures of 350*F so it should last on a finned cylinder.  That doesn't mean it's a good thing to have on a cylinder though.

Just because a paint is called a High Temperature paint does not mean it has low insulating properties.  It means high temperatures won't cause the paint layer to break down.
The ability to allow heat to pass thru the paint layer is not true with many paints and I suspect a paint that wrinkles may in fact be rather poor at heat transfer.
The wrinkles themselves create thicker layers and that can't be good for letting heat pass thru them.

I did look at the available information for VHT Wrinkle Plus but it didn't have any data on heat transfer.
It did give several areas that can get up into the 200*F temperature range like valve covers but it did not include air cooled engine cylinder fins as a suggested place to apply it.

Hopefully it will not cause a problem.  It does look good on the fins.


Jim
2011 G5 Deluxe
1999 Miata 10th Anniversary

tooseevee

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Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
« Reply #107 on: May 08, 2014, 02:01:56 PM »
When you get everything together and start riding it, look for signs of overheating.
If there are any it might be due to your wrinkle paint job.
There are flat black paints made for use on BBQ's and wood burning stoves that have almost no insulating qualities so they will work great on cylinder fins.  The heat will pass right thru them.
The wrinkle paint being used is good up to temperatures of 350*F so it should last on a finned cylinder.  That doesn't mean it's a good thing to have on a cylinder though.
Just because a paint is called a High Temperature paint does not mean it has low insulating properties.  It means high temperatures won't cause the paint layer to break down.
The ability to allow heat to pass thru the paint layer is not true with many paints and I suspect a paint that wrinkles may in fact be rather poor at heat transfer.
The wrinkles themselves create thicker layers and that can't be good for letting heat pass thru them.
I did look at the available information for VHT Wrinkle Plus but it didn't have any data on heat transfer.
It did give several areas that can get up into the 200*F temperature range like valve covers but it did not include air cooled engine cylinder fins as a suggested place to apply it.
Hopefully it will not cause a problem.  It does look good on the fins.

           Thanks for the headsup, but I'm not too worried about a few degrees of temp change at the fins. My style of riding now is not going to ever stress this engine anywhere near its limits plus past experience tells me that there's usually no problem. The paint that was on the fins was quite heavy already. And black. Just not wrinkled. I removed just about all of it. If I lived in Arizona, rode for hours at a time on freeways at 75 mph or in heavy traffic at 3, weighed 280 pounds I might worry about it.

             I never ride an hour straight at a time now without a get-off. The bike will only see over 55 once in a very blue moon (I HATE the feeling of being beaten to death by the wind now) & the temp in RI is never what you'd call omigod hot. And I avoid traffic with the same diligence that I avoid Starbucks  :)   ;)http://

              My last oil change I made it a point to ride a full hour. I could still hold my fingers in the draining oil stream. Overheat? I think not. Look what these poor bikes put up with in India without seizing up.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2014, 02:06:59 PM by tooseevee »
2008 ACE Head AVL Classic
1977 Shovelhead Hardtail Bobber

ace.cafe

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Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
« Reply #108 on: May 09, 2014, 02:57:52 PM »
The custom big valves(1.8" intake, 1.57" exhaust) on new seats are installed, porting work done, the mods done for installing the beehive valve spring package, the chamber re-shaping has been done, the head skimmed .010" for flat surface, alloy 32mm manifold is installed and flow-matched to the head,and it is on the flow bench now to get the final flow numbers. Then the coatings go in the chamber and exhaust port.
I will probably have the flow numbers early next week. Very slight chance I might get the numbers later tonight if they can finish that today.

Ace Air Canister for TM32 is finished and waiting to be shipped with the head.
Piston needed no valve reliefs cut in for this. If the lift was increased, then we'd have to do it.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2014, 03:01:48 PM by ace.cafe »
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head . Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available .  AVL mods. Redditch 700/750 Twin mods. UCE kit soon.

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dampking

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Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
« Reply #109 on: May 09, 2014, 03:37:09 PM »
So it's pretty much looks like that the AVL can take a lot of mods from Ace fireball iron barrel ? I knew there were similarities but it's always fun to read your posts :D

ace.cafe

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Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
« Reply #110 on: May 09, 2014, 03:44:31 PM »
So it's pretty much looks like that the AVL can take a lot of mods from Ace fireball iron barrel ? I knew there were similarities but it's always fun to read your posts :D

We try to use the proven parts and techniques wherever we can. We know it works, and so we apply it across the model lines as much as possible.
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head . Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available .  AVL mods. Redditch 700/750 Twin mods. UCE kit soon.

Please visit my new website:
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tooseevee

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Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
« Reply #111 on: May 09, 2014, 05:00:50 PM »
The custom big valves(1.8" intake, 1.57" exhaust) on new seats are installed, porting work done, the mods done for installing the beehive valve spring package, the chamber re-shaping has been done, the head skimmed .010" for flat surface, alloy 32mm manifold is installed and flow-matched to the head,and it is on the flow bench now to get the final flow numbers. Then the coatings go in the chamber and exhaust port.
I will probably have the flow numbers early next week. Very slight chance I might get the numbers later tonight if they can finish that today.

Ace Air Canister for TM32 is finished and waiting to be shipped with the head.
Piston needed no valve reliefs cut in for this. If the lift was increased, then we'd have to do it.

            Excellent news all around on this, yet another, rainy day.

             Put off again yesterday by my friendly local Walmart bike shop* on my throttle cable order from Sudco. I gave them another two weeks. I can't believe it's taking this long to get an order in.

             Don't rush anything. It's still cold here.

             * They handle every bike there is except harley & Royal Enfield  :) They have hundreds of bikes on the floor & scooters of every color & ATVs & Ruckuses & Farm ATVs & on & on. And BMW & KTM Around The World bikes.
2008 ACE Head AVL Classic
1977 Shovelhead Hardtail Bobber

ace.cafe

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Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
« Reply #112 on: May 16, 2014, 10:08:21 PM »
Update:

Tooseevee's head is done!

I have the flow bench sheet and the bill.
I have not picked up the head yet, so I don't have pics. I will take some pics and post them when I pick up the head next week.

Basic info is that it flows about like  Fireball Iron Barrel flows, but the lift is not quite as high , so it flows a little bit less at the stock AVL lift. But, it's pretty close, even without the taller cams!
Picked up about 30 cfm on the intake, even without any lift increase.

Also the chamber was mildly re-shaped for better flow around the bigger valves, some squish area moved around, and chamber volume reduced for a bit of a compression increase, and the deck slightly surface milled to clean it all up nice and flat.

Of course, all our Ace proprietary valve gear has been installed, including the beehive springs and titanium retainers, etc.
Thermal barrier coatings in chamber, on valve faces, and exhaust port too.

There were a couple of surprise charges on the invoice which pushed the cost up over the expected price, but I  am going to absorb some of it so that it stays close to the estimate. They hit me with a couple hundred dollar custom fixture charge to make a machining fixture to mount this odd shaped head on to the machines.. I will swallow that fee because I can use that again if I get any other AVL jobs in.
The custom valves were a LOT more expensive than usual, and they said that they had to source them from a different custom shop because of the odd size. Nobody else would do them. So, any prospective AVL owners looking at this mod need to be aware that the valves cost a lot, and the job will be a little more costly than the usual Iron Barrel Fireball jobs because of this and the chamber mods we have to do on this closed chamber in the AVL.

All in all, I'm happy with the results, and I think it's pretty damn good to get this much more flow at the standard factory lift height. It should have some nice punch, and I think it will have some pretty good top end too, even if Tooseevee doesn't  use the top speed ability. It's there.
And I am dying to see this go thru the previous "AVL rpm limit" of 5800 rpm, just to prove that we have solved that valve bounce issue.
The "s" cams should do nicely with this head.

Flow numbers will be posted as soon as I get home.
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head . Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available .  AVL mods. Redditch 700/750 Twin mods. UCE kit soon.

Please visit my new website:
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AcePerformanceBullets/info

ace.cafe

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Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
« Reply #113 on: May 17, 2014, 12:03:23 AM »
Here's the flow test sheet for Tooseevee's head in the attachment below(pdf).
They called it the "Big Head" because it looks similar to the old Big Head, and so they started calling it the "new Big Head". So, that's why the file name is like that.

The columns labeled "1" for intake and exhaust, are the "before" flow test, and the columns labeled "2" for intake and exhaust, are the "after" flow test.

Note how the exhaust port is no longer backing up at lifts over .350", and the port is much more stable.
Also note how we now achieve more intake flow at .350" lift, than the OEM port flowed at .600" lift(if it could have ever gotten there!) But if we put our roller rockers in there, it could take advantage of all the increased flow up to 213 cfm @ .600" lift with the same porting that we put in it for this job.
In the AVL, the stock rockers are approximately 1.1:1 ratio, so the approximate max lift will be around .330". So, you can ballpark the flow level to be between the .300" and .350" rows on the chart.

This job was done to get the power improved in the normal rev-range, and so we estimate probably 6000 peak hp rpm, similar to the Fireball. It will rev above that, though, if he wants to, but it will just hold roughly the same peak power for a hundred rpm over the peak hp rpm, if necessary.
There will be a nice increase in the midrange torque, where most people are interested in riding.

Now, this is our response to what Tooseevee asked for, and we feel that this is a good package for the "AVL Fireball" type of head work. It fits the same niche as the Iron Barrel Fireball does.
However, if people want less or more, or even a lot more for racing or something, we can respond to those needs also. We can put the roller rockers into this head too.
So, we can meet almost any request for power upgrades on the AVL now.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2014, 12:24:00 AM by ace.cafe »
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head . Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available .  AVL mods. Redditch 700/750 Twin mods. UCE kit soon.

Please visit my new website:
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AcePerformanceBullets/info

tooseevee

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Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
« Reply #114 on: May 17, 2014, 02:24:20 PM »
Update:
Tooseevee's head is done!
I have the flow bench sheet and the bill.
I have not picked up the head yet, so I don't have pics. I will take some pics and post them when I pick up the head next week.


            Well, what good news for a Saturday morning!  Grin, grin, smile, smile  ;)

             I'll have to read this over & over a couple times to get it all, but it all sounds really, really good to me. Sounds like you've gotten me just what I wanted; a really, really good (better) running, torquey, mid-range, old fart monster who might go 75 mph once in a while just to see what it feels like, but is mostly in 2nd, 3rd & 4th gears.

              Now all you need to do is send me the bill offline so I can get to work on the 2nd mortgage  ;) Luckily my house is paid for & I still manage to scrape the taxes together every quarter.

               Thank you a big bunch, Tom, and thank all the other guys at Mondello's for me. I hope I've maybe helped some other guys with AVLs (the last engine with the true vintage look) to do some mods they might be on the fence about. And aren't we lucky that my engine still had less than a 1,000 miles on it?
2008 ACE Head AVL Classic
1977 Shovelhead Hardtail Bobber

tooseevee

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Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
« Reply #115 on: May 17, 2014, 02:34:13 PM »
Here's the flow test sheet for Tooseevee's head in the attachment below(pdf).
They called it the "Big Head" because it looks similar to the old Big Head, and so they started calling it the "new Big Head". So, that's why the file name is like that.

The columns labeled "1" for intake and exhaust, are the "before" flow test, and the columns labeled "2" for intake and exhaust, are the "after" flow test.

Note how the exhaust port is no longer backing up at lifts over .350", and the port is much more stable.
Also note how we now achieve more intake flow at .350" lift, than the OEM port flowed at .600" lift(if it could have ever gotten there!) But if we put our roller rockers in there, it could take advantage of all the increased flow up to 213 cfm @ .600" lift with the same porting that we put in it for this job.
In the AVL, the stock rockers are approximately 1.1:1 ratio, so the approximate max lift will be around .330". So, you can ballpark the flow level to be between the .300" and .350" rows on the chart.

This job was done to get the power improved in the normal rev-range, and so we estimate probably 6000 peak hp rpm, similar to the Fireball. It will rev above that, though, if he wants to, but it will just hold roughly the same peak power for a hundred rpm over the peak hp rpm, if necessary.
There will be a nice increase in the midrange torque, where most people are interested in riding.

Now, this is our response to what Tooseevee asked for, and we feel that this is a good package for the "AVL Fireball" type of head work. It fits the same niche as the Iron Barrel Fireball does.
However, if people want less or more, or even a lot more for racing or something, we can respond to those needs also. We can put the roller rockers into this head too.
So, we can meet almost any request for power upgrades on the AVL now.

            All VERy interesting. I'll print both your posts & the chart out & try to digest it all.

            Just out of curiosity, what would approx mph be at 6,000 in 5th gear?

            In fact, what would it be at 5,000 in 5th?

            I've wanted one of those tiny electronic tachs since I got this bike. Maybe now....
« Last Edit: May 17, 2014, 02:41:13 PM by tooseevee »
2008 ACE Head AVL Classic
1977 Shovelhead Hardtail Bobber

DanB

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Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
« Reply #116 on: May 17, 2014, 02:48:42 PM »
Quote
Thank you a big bunch, Tom, and thank all the other guys at Mondello's for me. I hope I've maybe helped some other guys with AVLs (the last engine with the true vintage look) to do some mods they might be on the fence about

Thanks 2CV for cutting the curve!  Im certainly going to be following in your shoes.  The S Cams, TM32 and then an Ace AVL head looks to be the 'biz'!
Suppose I were an idiot, and suppose I were a member of Congress; but I repeat myself. ... Mark Twain
2006 AVL Electra

ace.cafe

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Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
« Reply #117 on: May 17, 2014, 03:01:22 PM »
With an 18 tooth sprocket, 6000 rpm in 5th would be a mph or two over The Ton.
5000 rpm in 5th with an 18T would be about 85 mph.
This could vary a bit, depending on tire diameter.

I don't know if you have cored-out that "hot tube" restrictor out of the tail end of your header pipe yet, or if you have an aftermarket exhaust, but now would be the time for that if you have not already done so.

For those not wanting higher lift, the "S Cams" should give enough duration for the top speed work. I am not sure if the stock AVL cams have enough duration for the Ton, or not. I guess we'll see soon!

This finally gives the AVL owners some professional performance options which have been long awaited. With some serious ratio roller rockers and the duration of the "S Cams", and our porting and chamber work, these AVL engines could really put out some heavy duty power. I suspect over 40 hp at the rear wheel would be achievable with a hot street build on our roller rocker AVL head.

Please bear in mind that we can adjust any/all of the modifications to suit various power and rpm applications, and that this version for Tooseevee is just one of many possible variations. But, this is a good one for street use that many owners might select, sort of like the Fireball.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2014, 03:19:27 PM by ace.cafe »
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head . Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available .  AVL mods. Redditch 700/750 Twin mods. UCE kit soon.

Please visit my new website:
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AcePerformanceBullets/info

Bullet Whisperer

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Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
« Reply #118 on: May 17, 2014, 07:28:25 PM »
This is all very interesting and I have it on good authority that the AVL 500 was originally designed for 40 bhp plus potential, but changes made from drawing board to production line spelled the end of that theory.
 These engines offer many improvements over the 'Iron' types, as well as some last minute corner cutting, more's the pity.
 For what it's worth, the machine I tuned ran on an 18" rear wheel and 19t gearbox sprocket and achieved 103 mph @ 6200 rpm, the engine being able to exceed 7000 rpm [just], but no real point going there.
 We had 33.34 bhp @ 6000 rpm, so I am sure the Ace mods for tooseevee's machine might see 40 bhp. Those engines were so close, without ever getting the cigar, but it's all in there somewhere.
 As for the 'S' cams, I can only claim to have 'rediscovered' them, but 20 sets have gone to date, most for AVL 500's, but a few for 'Iron' engines, where improvements have also been noted.
 B.W.

ace.cafe

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Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
« Reply #119 on: May 17, 2014, 07:49:00 PM »
I appreciate the compliments, but I am not expecting this particular set of mods on this head to do 40hp on the stock cams.
However, I think it would be possible with some roller rockers with a good amount of lift, and some longer duration cams for making more power at higher revs.
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head . Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available .  AVL mods. Redditch 700/750 Twin mods. UCE kit soon.

Please visit my new website:
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AcePerformanceBullets/info