HPRE

Menu

Members Rides

First oil change 200 miles G5


in
Members Rides

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
August 27, 2014, 01:10:07 PM

Login with username, password and session length

 

Author Topic: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread  (Read 6695 times)

ace.cafe

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 8117
  • Karma: 0
  • World leaders in racing or performance Bullets
Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
« Reply #60 on: February 12, 2014, 12:21:16 AM »
Okay, so at Mondello's today, we hatched the plan of attack.
I have emailed Tooseevee with some of the details, and some requests for measurements.

Basically, we need to have more space at the valve to let more air in.
If cams or rockers are not wanted in the job, then that leaves bigger valves. So, that's what we plan.

The approach is more valve area via bigger diameter valves, and to unshroud the bigger valves by doing some re-shaping of the combustion chamber to allow better flow out of the bigger valves. This will also require new valve seats.
The chamber will be cc'd prior to the work, so we know the starting volume of the chamber before we do anything to it. After we do the flow relief work around the valves, we will weld up some aluminum in another part of the chamber, and  grind it and shape it to help out the flow over there in that part. And we will adjust the chamber volume with this added metal to have the same cc volume as it had previously, so that the compression will not be adversely affected. When it's done, the chamber will have a somewhat different shape, much improved, bigger valves, but the same cc's of volume and compression.

In this case of larger valves, it is possible that even with the standard lift, and depending on how far down the bore the piston is at TDC, we may have to provide clearance for the valves by fly-cutting valve relief pockets in the piston crown. This is not an unusual procedure in performance work. Then we have some room to work our plan without the piston banging into the valves over TDC.
Basically, we have to do something to get more room to let air in around the valves.  Cams, rockers, or bigger valves. Pick one, or more.

And to all you other AVL owners out there who may experience issues with interference in piston-to-valve clearance over TDC, we can fly-cut your piston too, if you need it, and it is a quite inexpensive procedure to do. Much much cheaper than a new piston. There is a limit to how far it can be cut into the crown, but if you are doing big time lift mods that go beyond what we are doing in this job, then you will need another piston anyway, and most of you contemplating anything like that would already realize this.

So, we have a pretty good plan here. Depending on how the location of the piston at TDC works out, we may or may not have to do anything with that. If we do, then it isn't too expensive of a job to provide clearance relief cuts in it, and this gives a route to anyone else with an AVL needing to do that. Just send in your piston if you need it done.

Of course, this job gets all the other Fireball stuff like the beehives and Fireball valve gear hardware and installation methods, and the performance coatings too.

Waiting for a response from Tooseevee about it.

Tom
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head . Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available .  AVL mods. Redditch 700/750 Twin mods. UCE kit soon.

Please visit my new website:
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/AcePerformanceBullets/

DanB

  • Grease Monkey
  • ****
  • Posts: 443
  • Karma: 0
Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
« Reply #61 on: February 12, 2014, 01:03:19 AM »
Cool. I'm very interested to see how this turns out.

Ace, how do you measure the piston clearance?  Considering you have the head and 2cv has the rest of it. Curious....
« Last Edit: February 12, 2014, 01:07:08 AM by DanB »
Suppose I were an idiot, and suppose I were a member of Congress; but I repeat myself. ... Mark Twain
2006 AVL Electra

ace.cafe

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 8117
  • Karma: 0
  • World leaders in racing or performance Bullets
Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
« Reply #62 on: February 12, 2014, 01:21:37 AM »
Cool. I'm very interested to see how this turns out.

Ace, how do you measure the piston clearance?  Considering you have the head and 2cv has the rest of it. Curious....
He has to give me the measurement of how far down in the hole that the piston is at TDC, and also the thickness of the head gasket. Then I can know how far the valve can come down without touching. The cam profile will dictate how far the valve will be out at TDC, and I have a set of AVL cams in my possession, so I can get that from the profile.

With the AVL cams intake valve only beginning to open at 9*BTDC, it won't be open very much at TDC. But, it depends on how high up the piston is. If the piston is not right up to the top, and we have a 1mm gasket thickness or something like that, we might have enough room.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2014, 01:27:07 AM by ace.cafe »
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head . Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available .  AVL mods. Redditch 700/750 Twin mods. UCE kit soon.

Please visit my new website:
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/AcePerformanceBullets/

DanB

  • Grease Monkey
  • ****
  • Posts: 443
  • Karma: 0
Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
« Reply #63 on: February 12, 2014, 02:13:38 AM »
Thanks Ace. Same procedure with S cams?
Suppose I were an idiot, and suppose I were a member of Congress; but I repeat myself. ... Mark Twain
2006 AVL Electra

ace.cafe

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 8117
  • Karma: 0
  • World leaders in racing or performance Bullets
Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
« Reply #64 on: February 12, 2014, 02:23:01 AM »
Thanks Ace. Same procedure with S cams?
Same basic procedure, but the S Cams open the intake earlier with their longer duration. This means that the valves are more open around TDC, which means more likelihood of valve to piston clearance issues.

It can be done, as long as I can get the owner to take the measurements that I need, and do it accurately.
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head . Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available .  AVL mods. Redditch 700/750 Twin mods. UCE kit soon.

Please visit my new website:
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/AcePerformanceBullets/

ace.cafe

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 8117
  • Karma: 0
  • World leaders in racing or performance Bullets
Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
« Reply #65 on: February 12, 2014, 03:23:12 PM »
I would also like to note that because of the similarities between the valves and chamber of the AVL and the UCE, all these same options can be available for the UCE too.
So, if any UCE owners want a big valve kit for their UCE, and don't want cams or rocker changes, we can accommodate.
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head . Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available .  AVL mods. Redditch 700/750 Twin mods. UCE kit soon.

Please visit my new website:
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/AcePerformanceBullets/

ace.cafe

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 8117
  • Karma: 0
  • World leaders in racing or performance Bullets
Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
« Reply #66 on: February 12, 2014, 04:55:19 PM »
He has to give me the measurement of how far down in the hole that the piston is at TDC, and also the thickness of the head gasket. Then I can know how far the valve can come down without touching. The cam profile will dictate how far the valve will be out at TDC, and I have a set of AVL cams in my possession, so I can get that from the profile.

With the AVL cams intake valve only beginning to open at 9*BTDC, it won't be open very much at TDC. But, it depends on how high up the piston is. If the piston is not right up to the top, and we have a 1mm gasket thickness or something like that, we might have enough room.

It looks like his piston is about right at the top of the barrel at TDC, so no extra room there.
I asked him to pull the piston and send it to me for relief cutting of the crown for valve clearance.
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head . Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available .  AVL mods. Redditch 700/750 Twin mods. UCE kit soon.

Please visit my new website:
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/AcePerformanceBullets/

1 Thump

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 1250
  • Karma: 0
Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
« Reply #67 on: February 12, 2014, 05:36:25 PM »
I would also like to note that because of the similarities between the valves and chamber of the AVL and the UCE, all these same options can be available for the UCE too.
So, if any UCE owners want a big valve kit for their UCE, and don't want cams or rocker changes, we can accommodate.

Ace,

Could you indicate the anticipated ball park performance with this mod, along with the usual free flow and carb upgrades.


ace.cafe

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 8117
  • Karma: 0
  • World leaders in racing or performance Bullets
Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
« Reply #68 on: February 12, 2014, 06:43:39 PM »
Ace,

Could you indicate the anticipated ball park performance with this mod, along with the usual free flow and carb upgrades.

I can't right now, because this is the first AVL we have done, and we don't have any flow results from the porting yet. I can provide a decent estimate based on the ported flow test info, after that gets done.

The bottom line is that we always do the best we can,  based on whatever budget limitations or other limitations we have to observe for the customer's wishes.

As I mentioned earlier,  some of this stuff will give us good info about UCE mods, because of the similarity between them and the AVL. We can apply things we learn here to the UCE too.

If you would like a guess, I will say it should be around the Fireball power area. Not too sure about the shape of the power curve. Basically it will have similar valve size, similar compression, similar carb and exhaust, . The Fireball has more cam duration and lift, and 35 more cc displacement. The AVL has a little larger port, and has some of the stuff like alloy barrel and 8.5:1 piston, and steel rod and roller bearing, so it is less expensive to convert for power, as long as the factory parts hold up.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2014, 07:12:54 PM by ace.cafe »
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head . Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available .  AVL mods. Redditch 700/750 Twin mods. UCE kit soon.

Please visit my new website:
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/AcePerformanceBullets/

tooseevee

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 1145
  • Karma: 0
  • There Are No Truths Outside The Gates of Eden
Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
« Reply #69 on: February 12, 2014, 09:16:31 PM »
      I'm VERY happy with what's going on so far & this guy (YOU, Ace) is just the best guy to work with that I've come across in a long time. We are SO lucky to have him & the Mondello guys.

       I hammered on the cylinder for a while this afternoon with a
block of hardwood & my 4 pound, coxcombed harley hammer. No luck. Dead arm. These guys ceMENT the gaskets in Chennai. Later tonight I'm going down & drive a putty knife in horizontally all the way around. That'll do it.

       Then the piston will go off to Ace to have recesses calculated & cut into the top for the huge beautiful new F-ing valves!

        Stay tuned  :)   ;D   ;D

       
2008 RE AVL Classic
1977 Shovelhead Hardtail Bobber

armando_chavez

  • Bulleteer
  • ***
  • Posts: 145
  • Karma: 0
Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
« Reply #70 on: February 12, 2014, 11:30:03 PM »
woah how much better would the upgrades be if you did the head and a 535cc big bore?

ace.cafe

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 8117
  • Karma: 0
  • World leaders in racing or performance Bullets
Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
« Reply #71 on: February 13, 2014, 12:29:39 AM »
woah how much better would the upgrades be if you did the head and a 535cc big bore?

We are doing the head.
It's getting the full porting job, full Ace valve gear, big valves, chamber mods, and thermal barrier coatings on the chamber and exhaust port, Mikuni TM32 flatslide carb with Ace flow-matched alloy manifold, and free flow exhaust.
And the piston's getting relief cuts to clear the bigger valves when they are part open over TDC.
So, it's getting a lot.

It's just not getting cams or rockers, so the lift will remain the same. But the big valves will give more open valve area, even at the same lift, so that's why we are going that route.

Of course, it would do more if it got the cams or rockers too, but the desire of the owner was to keep the lift as it was, and do what else we could do. So, there you have it.

The 535 is good for about a horse and a half more. It can be done at any time, if he wants that. We can fly cut the valve reliefs in the flat top 535 piston too.

Basically, what we do is what the owner wants us to do. We can do practically anything that is wanted. Each job is custom.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2014, 12:35:03 AM by ace.cafe »
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head . Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available .  AVL mods. Redditch 700/750 Twin mods. UCE kit soon.

Please visit my new website:
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/AcePerformanceBullets/

Chuck D

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 884
  • Karma: 0
Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
« Reply #72 on: February 13, 2014, 02:16:19 AM »
      I'm VERY happy with what's going on so far & this guy (YOU, Ace) is just the best guy to work with that I've come across in a long time. We are SO lucky to have him & the Mondello guys.

       I hammered on the cylinder for a while this afternoon with a
block of hardwood & my 4 pound, coxcombed harley hammer. No luck. Dead arm. These guys ceMENT the gaskets in Chennai. Later tonight I'm going down & drive a putty knife in horizontally all the way around. That'll do it.

       Then the piston will go off to Ace to have recesses calculated & cut into the top for the huge beautiful new F-ing valves!

        Stay tuned  :)   ;D   ;D

     
Tooseevee,
You're going to be REALLY glad you did this. If you think that you loved your bike before... I'm excited for you man.
Chuck.
2006 Bullet Sixty-5 w/ Ace "Fireball 535" Kit (#10)
Ace "GP" head in the works.

'76 Honda CB550Four K(sold)


"What's so funny 'bout peace, love, and understandin'?"

tooseevee

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 1145
  • Karma: 0
  • There Are No Truths Outside The Gates of Eden
Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
« Reply #73 on: February 14, 2014, 08:48:27 PM »
   Just a quick update to keep the thread alive:

             The cylinder came right off once I drove a putty knife horizontal into the gasket from all 4 corners. Then it was just wiggle, wiggle, wiggle.

              The wrist pin keepers are very simple. Out in 2 seconds with a needle nose. The wrist pin slid right out after 5 minutes with the hair dryer.

              The worst part is getting the old gasket off both surfaces; no gouges allowed). It stewed all night in carb cleaner, but that evaporates too fast. Goo-Gone is pretty good. Still a finger-killer job. I should have bought some acetone, but what do I do with the rest of it? Don't need it.

              The piston & new head gasket were sent off to Ace at noon.

              All the jets for the TM are here; needle, pilots & mains. Gonna stick with the stock needle to begin with. They're pricey & the stock one has 5 grooves. Waiting on throttle cable. When that gets here I can set it up & adjust it to the carb. I hope I'm lucky & the free cable length at the carb end is right.

                 
2008 RE AVL Classic
1977 Shovelhead Hardtail Bobber

High On Octane

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 3732
  • Karma: 0
  • Go Fast & Look Good Doing It
Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
« Reply #74 on: February 15, 2014, 04:43:07 PM »
 
......The worst part is getting the old gasket off both surfaces; no gouges allowed). It stewed all night in carb cleaner, but that evaporates too fast. Goo-Gone is pretty good. Still a finger-killer job. I should have bought some acetone, but what do I do with the rest of it? Don't need it......
               

That's what these are for.  They clean old gasket material in 10 seconds.  We go through a box every 2 or 3 weeks at the Subaru shop.



Scottie J
Bulldog Kustoms - Denver, CO
Specializing In Kustom Paint

The Blackhawk
1958 Enfield/Indian 711cc Twin

Building the 1st EVER Supercharged RE Twin
FULL RACE motor with ACE Performance