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Author Topic: My Quest To Hit the Ton  (Read 2105 times)

High On Octane

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My Quest To Hit the Ton
« on: February 09, 2014, 06:10:54 PM »
Now that I have to tear the primary cover off of the Blackhawk again, I decided that I'm going to replace the clutch plates/springs and counter-shaft sprocket while I'm in there playing.  So I decided to go ahead to play with the gearing spreadsheet and CeD/MPH/HP calculator.  With the way the engine is built and tuned, I'm guessing I have close to 45hp at the block.  I need 42hp to to hit 105mph, so I went with that figure.  I took all my magic numbers and started plugging them in and this is what I came up with.



All the important numbers are highlighted in red and yellow.  With the 21 tooth sprocket I should be able to cruise at 70mph at less than 4000 RPMs, which should make it much more capable of cruising down the Interstate without having to worry about getting killed by stupid cagers.  Also, I should be able to redline right around 107mph.  ;D  Best part is at normal 55mph speeds I'll putting cruising nicely at only 3000 RPMs.   8)

Scottie
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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2014, 08:00:57 PM »
With a 19th sprocket, you should be able to hit the Ton at around 6000 rpm in top gear.
That's what it takes with the Fireball.
Anything over that is "gravy".
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barenekd

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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2014, 11:08:56 PM »
I think I mentioned this, but the stock sprocket on that bike is a 21T. Road tests showed them easily capable of the ton.
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High On Octane

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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2014, 01:54:02 PM »
"Factory" road tests indicated them hitting the ton.  Every "independent" road indicated a top speed of 94mph.  And my bike doesn't have a 21 tooth, it has an 18 tooth front, which is why I want to put a 21 tooth on it.  Constellations came with a 20 tooth, the Super Meteors only came with a 18.

Scottie J
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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2014, 02:02:04 PM »
"Factory" road tests indicated them hitting the ton.  Every "independent" road indicated a top speed of 94mph.  And my bike doesn't have a 21 tooth, it has an 18 tooth front, which is why I want to put a 21 tooth on it.  Constellations came with a 20 tooth, the Super Meteors only came with a 18.

Scottie J

19 teeth works very well on the Bullet, which is very similar layout.
19T on the Fireball gives easy 75-80 mph cruising, and just tops the Ton. Still has good acceleration.
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head . Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available .  AVL mods. Redditch 700/750 Twin mods. UCE kit soon.

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ERC

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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2014, 02:27:04 PM »
With a 20 you might lose lower end. Most likely would give you a great top end. As Ace says a 19 might be safer for all around performance.  ERC
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High On Octane

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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2014, 03:12:02 PM »
With a 20 you might lose lower end. Most likely would give you a great top end. As Ace says a 19 might be safer for all around performance.  ERC

I realize that small change in sprockets can have a significant difference, but I'm telling you this bike is way under geared.  I can get up to 75mph in about 8 seconds and then it takes about 3/4 of a mile to go from 75-90.  The motor pulls pretty damn hard all the way to that 75mph mark and then just starts losing steam.  And I should be putting out a bit more power than a stock 700cc twin as well, being the cylinders are punched +.040 and I have EI installed.  And if you look at the gear chart, you can see right now (18TF/46TR) that I'm damn near redlined at 90mph in 4th gear.  Only jumping to a 19TF will redline me below the ton, 6123 RPMs @ 100mph when the bike is barely good for 6K in current form.  I'm not too worried about sacrificing a little low end power, as when I'm playing in the dirt I'm usually creeping in 1st or 2nd gear anyways and the 20TF will give me a little more leeway for 1st gear fun.  If I'm on the street, chances are I'm cranking on it anyways.  ;D  I guess I'll go with a 20TF as it is good for just over The Ton and should still ease up my highway speeds.  This whole cruising at 4500 RPMs at 65 mph is no good.

Scottie J
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The Blackhawk
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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2014, 03:27:44 PM »
I realize that small change in sprockets can have a significant difference, but I'm telling you this bike is way under geared.  I can get up to 75mph in about 8 seconds and then it takes about 3/4 of a mile to go from 75-90.  The motor pulls pretty damn hard all the way to that 75mph mark and then just starts losing steam.  And I should be putting out a bit more power than a stock 700cc twin as well, being the cylinders are punched +.040 and I have EI installed.  And if you look at the gear chart, you can see right now (18TF/46TR) that I'm damn near redlined at 90mph in 4th gear.  Only jumping to a 19TF will redline me below the ton, 6123 RPMs @ 100mph when the bike is barely good for 6K in current form.  I'm not too worried about sacrificing a little low end power, as when I'm playing in the dirt I'm usually creeping in 1st or 2nd gear anyways and the 20TF will give me a little more leeway for 1st gear fun.  If I'm on the street, chances are I'm cranking on it anyways.  ;D  I guess I'll go with a 20TF as it is good for just over The Ton and should still ease up my highway speeds.  This whole cruising at 4500 RPMs at 65 mph is no good.

Scottie J

Oh! It's your 46T rear that's the problem.
Normal Enfield gearing is 38T rear.
Where did that 46T come from?
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ERC

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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2014, 04:03:30 PM »
I believe all the old twins came with 46 teeth.  ERC
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High On Octane

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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2014, 04:33:52 PM »
I believe all the old twins came with 46 teeth.  ERC

Yep, I have the big ol' extra huge rear sprocket/drum assembly.  Honestly, when I found out the Bullets have a 38 tooth rear, the thought had crossed my mind to pick up an 18" Bullet rear wheel.  :)
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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2014, 04:38:18 PM »
Okay, well the larger tooth sprocket like the 21 would be good then.
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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #11 on: February 16, 2014, 08:58:39 AM »
I will check, as I am sure I have one lying around somewhere, but I think the twins have, or should have, a larger engine [crank] sprocket than the singles which will offset the effect of the larger 46t rear sprocket.
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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #12 on: February 16, 2014, 09:56:52 AM »
Here is a picture of a 700 Meteor, that might help if you zoom in on the engine sprocket  ;)
 B.W.

ERC

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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #13 on: February 16, 2014, 02:21:32 PM »
Bullet, I've got three in front of me and they all have 29 teeth. Don't know how many are on the bullet. Your right this could make a difference.   ERC
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ERC

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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #14 on: February 16, 2014, 02:27:14 PM »
Just looked the Bullet one has 25 teeth.  ERC
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High On Octane

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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #15 on: February 16, 2014, 02:53:21 PM »
Both my Chief and Trailblazer have a 29 tooth front sprocket.  Hitchcock's has other sizes available for the crank sprocket, but I think I'll be ok just changing the counter shaft sprocket.  I'm not even sure why the Connie comes with a 20TF and the Super Meteor comes with an 18TF.  I'm also throwing in 3 Surflex clutch plates, new springs and a new redesigned clutch pad roller thingy.  Hopefully that will get the clutch to stop slipping.  As far as the alternator goes, I guess the 3rd time is a charm right?  ???

Also while we're on the subject, what causes the the clutch basket to have a little slop and play in it?  Is that the cush drive rubber pieces that are worn out?  Or is there another bearing somewhere I'm not seeing.  It doesn't make any noise, I just notice it has a little bit of play when I have the primary cover off.

Scottie J
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The Blackhawk
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ace.cafe

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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #16 on: February 19, 2014, 05:58:25 PM »
There is usually a large diameter circle of little ball bearings all the way around the clutch hub, where the basket rides on it. I don't have any specs on allowable play for that.
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coinzy

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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #17 on: February 23, 2014, 09:53:20 PM »
Twins also ran 32 or even 33 front sprockets from memory,you might consider these as it should mean less torque is transferred to the clutch,the torque at the back wheel is picked up again through the lower countershaft, that you can use.
Could help with your clutch slip :-\
Triumph clutch's were arguably better in that they used rollers instead of balls,that tended to hold the clutch plates more in line and helped reduce friction/drag.RE never caught on ::)
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Blltrdr

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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #18 on: February 24, 2014, 01:55:12 AM »
You can contact Raceway Services in Salem OR. They can blueprint your clutch basket. They will reline it and true it up for about $120. Makes a big difference when you figure in the close tolerances involved with the clutch pack. http://www.racewayservices.comcastbiz.net/index.shtml
If you call them ask for Jim. Also I replaced all four stock friction plates with the Surflex plates. You most likely kept the heavily segmented plate. I thought there was some benefit in the heavy segmented plates since the upgrade friction plate kit sold for the 4spd are the stock 5spd friction plates. When switching out my four speed for a new 5spd box I decided to use the stock 5spd clutch pack. I had nothing but trouble and could never get it to quit slipping. I installed my Surflex clutch pack (4 plates) and my blueprinted clutch hub from Raceway Services and now have no clutch slip what so ever. I know Ace also recommends the Barnett plates but feel the Surflex are similar. Depending on HP you may need to go with a Newby clutch.
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High On Octane

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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #19 on: March 01, 2014, 04:13:15 PM »
So, I tore apart the primary cover for 1,378 time last night.  I have discovered that not only do I NOT need to remove the foot peg to get the cover off, but I don't even have to remove the rear brake pedal either, I just have to remove the push rod from the brake pedal and it drops completely out of the way.  So that's cool to learn!   :D

As for the clutch.  What a piece of crap!  I actually took a very close look at the individual pieces as I was tearing it apart, and what an archaic relic from the times of old!  As for the diagnosis.....  All the friction plates have plenty of material, but they are glazed like no clutch I've ever seen before.  Not to mention all the slop and play in every part of that clutch basket.  Needless to say, I now find myself at a cross roads.  Do I try and replace the crappy parts with slightly better parts and HOPE it doesn't slip anymore?  Or do I say fuck the dumb shit and order a clutch basket from Bob Newby, either chain or belt drive?  I'm inclined to get a Newby clutch, as the RE scissor clutch is nothing more than a semi-functioning 20 piece paper weight.

I'd rather be spending money on the Bonneville build, but damn it, I don't like not being able to ride anything at all either.     >:(

And Blltrdr - I do appreciate that info for the clutch basket blue printing, but I'm done polishing turds.  Sure, I could send it out and have that turd better than ever.  But it's still a turd, it still stinks, it's just shinier now.  LOL   ;D  But I am curious.....  You are in fact running the Sureflex plates in your clutch now.  Correct?  What are your thoughts on their performance?  Is it actually worth trying?  I'm already laying down way more torque than this clutch can handle as is, and I only plan on making it faster once the Bonneville bike is complete.  Maybe it's worth the money just replacing the entire clutch now and be done with it and having the security in mind that it will never be an issue again?   ???

Scottie J
Bulldog Kustoms - Denver, CO
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The Blackhawk
1958 Enfield/Indian 711cc Twin

Building the 1st EVER Supercharged RE Twin
FULL RACE motor with ACE Performance

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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #20 on: March 01, 2014, 11:17:24 PM »
Newby has the wet clutch that is less expensive than the belt drive and dry clutch,  and works with the regular primary stuff that's already there.
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High On Octane

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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #21 on: March 01, 2014, 11:25:56 PM »
Newby has the wet clutch that is less expensive than the belt drive and dry clutch,  and works with the regular primary stuff that's already there.

That's actually the kit I'm leaning towards.
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da punds

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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #22 on: March 02, 2014, 12:35:15 PM »
I would go for the wet Newby every time for a road bike, I have the dry version and I only have to miss a couple of weeks turning it over in the winter for the plates to bind up. I have never had any riding issues, light clutch no slip even with a reasonably tuned motor. The best mod I ever did to my motor, just go for it you won't regret it.

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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #23 on: March 02, 2014, 07:26:09 PM »
So, I tore apart the primary cover for 1,378 time last night.  I have discovered that not only do I NOT need to remove the foot peg to get the cover off, but I don't even have to remove the rear brake pedal either, I just have to remove the push rod from the brake pedal and it drops completely out of the way.  So that's cool to learn!   :D

As for the clutch.  What a piece of crap!  I actually took a very close look at the individual pieces as I was tearing it apart, and what an archaic relic from the times of old!  As for the diagnosis.....  All the friction plates have plenty of material, but they are glazed like no clutch I've ever seen before.  Not to mention all the slop and play in every part of that clutch basket.  Needless to say, I now find myself at a cross roads.  Do I try and replace the crappy parts with slightly better parts and HOPE it doesn't slip anymore?  Or do I say fuck the dumb shit and order a clutch basket from Bob Newby, either chain or belt drive?  I'm inclined to get a Newby clutch, as the RE scissor clutch is nothing more than a semi-functioning 20 piece paper weight.

I'd rather be spending money on the Bonneville build, but damn it, I don't like not being able to ride anything at all either.     >:(

And Blltrdr - I do appreciate that info for the clutch basket blue printing, but I'm done polishing turds.  Sure, I could send it out and have that turd better than ever.  But it's still a turd, it still stinks, it's just shinier now.  LOL   ;D  But I am curious.....  You are in fact running the Sureflex plates in your clutch now.  Correct?  What are your thoughts on their performance?  Is it actually worth trying?  I'm already laying down way more torque than this clutch can handle as is, and I only plan on making it faster once the Bonneville bike is complete.  Maybe it's worth the money just replacing the entire clutch now and be done with it and having the security in mind that it will never be an issue again?   ???

Scottie J

Yes I am running four Surflex plates with the reworked basket from Raceway Services and they work great. Probably work great on your street bike, but for your Bonneville bike I would go Newby. Really the Newby clutch is probably your only option for the type of speed your attempting to achieve. Knowing the cost of one of these clutch kits pales in comparison to the costs you are going to incur going to Bonneville. It wouldn't be a bad idea to call up Raceway Services and have a conversation with Jim. I'm not sure if he can shed any light on helping you fix your clutch issues but he is a really knowledgeable guy that might be able to suggest an alternative solution. Dan Holmes would be another person to contact because of his Bonneville experience. http://bonnevillebullet.org/bonnevillebullet/
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High On Octane

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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #24 on: March 16, 2014, 01:24:52 PM »
I'm trying to get parts lined up to be ordered from Hitchcock's tomorrow.  I'm not willing to fork out the money for Newby clutch on the Blackhawk right now and I can't decide if I should order some Sureflex plates and use my old steel plates or if I should order the "Improved Clutch Service Kit" that has springs and both steel and friction plates.  I don't think the "Improved" kit has the Sureflex plates tho.  Does anyone know the answer to that?  Also, do you think it would be worth installing 6 heavy springs as opposed to 3 standard and 3 heavy?  I realize the lever will be heavier but I'm not quite over the hill yet and still have some strength left in my clutch hand.  :)

Also, for refinishing the friction liners on the basket itself.....  Just use some brake cleaner and some 220 grit sand paper?  ???  Or should I just order the re-liner kit?  How hard is it to set the rivets good for the re-liner kit?  Also, does Hitchcocks's supply any kind of prehistoric fossils when ordering replacement parts for a scissor clutch?    ;D

And one last thing, if I go with individual plates, can I sneak an extra friction and steel plate in there?  It looked like I have the room before I tore it all apart.

Scottie J
« Last Edit: March 16, 2014, 01:26:59 PM by High On Octane »
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The Blackhawk
1958 Enfield/Indian 711cc Twin

Building the 1st EVER Supercharged RE Twin
FULL RACE motor with ACE Performance

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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #25 on: March 16, 2014, 01:42:56 PM »
I don't know any specifics about the scissor clutch.

If the plates are like the Bullet, there are Barnett plates available. Also, Chumma had some special Barnett plates made that are thinner, so that he could sneak an extra plate in the basket. I don't know if he has any of those left.

The general methods of clean friction plates, perfectly flat steel plates with scuffed-up surfaces(120 grit), heavy springs, and Type F ATF, should do the job  unless the engine is putting out a lot more power than stock.
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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #26 on: March 16, 2014, 02:00:44 PM »
This is what I have selected do far.  I can't seem to find a way to order 6 heavy springs, they only come in a kit of 3 and 3.  I need a clutch cable too but I think I'm just going to build my own cable.



It will probably be just over $200 after shipping.  A nice little investment to assure I hit The Ton.  ;)

Scottie J
« Last Edit: March 16, 2014, 02:04:52 PM by High On Octane »
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The Blackhawk
1958 Enfield/Indian 711cc Twin

Building the 1st EVER Supercharged RE Twin
FULL RACE motor with ACE Performance

ace.cafe

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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #27 on: March 16, 2014, 02:26:10 PM »
We can hit the Ton on a Fireball with a similar clutch package. Use the Type F ATF.

At the dyno shop we used, they had some archived charts of some vintage British twins they had dyno'd. Our Fireball was within about 1 hp either way of the Triumph and BSA 650 and 750 twins that they had dyno'd previously. So we know that that clutch set-up should be able to hold your amount of power. It's close, and we slip if we don't use the ATF.

Also, if your clutch throw-out rod is segmented with a single ball bearing between the segments, like a Bullet, replace the steel ball bearing with a good quality ceramic ball bearing.  Lower friction and so it can't friction weld together..
« Last Edit: March 16, 2014, 02:42:06 PM by ace.cafe »
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High On Octane

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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #28 on: March 16, 2014, 02:48:31 PM »

........Also, if your clutch throw-out rod is segmented with a single ball bearing between the segments, like a Bullet, replace the steel ball bearing with a good quality ceramic ball bearing.  Lower friction and so it can't friction weld together..

Second part from the bottom of the list.    ;)
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The Blackhawk
1958 Enfield/Indian 711cc Twin

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FULL RACE motor with ACE Performance

ERC

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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #29 on: March 16, 2014, 04:43:00 PM »
His clutch is a scissor clutch doesn't have the rod if I remember correctly.  ERC
2-57 Apaches, 2-57 Trailblazers, 60 Chief, 65 Interceptor, 2004 Bullet, 612 Bullet chopped.

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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #30 on: March 16, 2014, 08:22:37 PM »
Yeah, I just realized that part # 90010D won't work with the scissor clutch.   :(

Also my clutch is pretty beat up all over.  I'm just going to throw new plates and springs in it for now until I can afford a Newby and throw a 21 tooth sprocket on while I'm in there and already have it tore aprt.

Scottie J
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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #31 on: March 16, 2014, 09:51:28 PM »
I'd throw a new friction disc in there also. Order extra rivets to. It'll give you some to practice with to get them right.  ERC
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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #32 on: March 17, 2014, 11:18:36 AM »
I planned on replacing all the plates, steel and friction.  For those rivets, I should just be able to smash them together with an air hammer right?

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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #33 on: March 17, 2014, 01:17:15 PM »
It doesn't take much to flatten them an air hammer will be way to much. You have to practice a bit to get them right.   ERC
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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #34 on: March 17, 2014, 02:32:25 PM »
My Co worker has a real nice IR air hammer with a very forgiving trigger.  I have actually used it a couple of times to pound dents out of sheet metal that were I'm hard to reach areas where I couldn't swing a body hammer.  It worked quite well.

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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #35 on: March 17, 2014, 05:10:22 PM »
Scottie if you are going to replace your friction material on your clutch basket you should just send it to Jim at Speedway Services in Oregon (this guy is freakishly knowledgeable). Even if you don't have the work done he is someone you should call (503-588-7227) just to bend his ear about your project (he is doing an Interceptor 750 right now). He says they use a Raybestos Super 10 lining that is thicker than stock so they can true up the lining material on a lathe. They glue it rather than rivet it for longevity and superior strength. Jim has built a truing jig using a main shaft that is a stand alone setup just to do this procedure. Whatever he charges (I talked to him today and he quoted $125 for your clutch basket) is a fraction of what someone would have to spend in time to get it right. If you do happen to call him I would let him know what model it is off of. This may seem petty or insignificant but I'm sure that blueprinting your clutch will be worth all the time and money. Starting with a known trued surface will be optimal. You would think that even if you do rivet on your friction material you would still need to have it chucked and turned (that's where the extra main shaft comes in handy) to make it completely flat and I'm not really sure if the new friction material that Hitchcock's sells is thick enough to allow for any truing. Well good luck with whatever way you decide to go about it. I'm sure it will perform much better than it does now.

Brad
« Last Edit: March 17, 2014, 05:13:43 PM by Blltrdr »
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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #36 on: March 17, 2014, 05:31:58 PM »
Thanks for that info Brad, but I'm going to do it on the cheap this time around and just fix and repair I have.  Just finished resurfacing my pressure plate.





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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #37 on: March 17, 2014, 05:55:07 PM »
Well I would call Jim anyway. He is a cool old guy with lots of knowledge, which I'm sure he would be delighted to share with you. Maybe he could give you some ideas on how to maximize it on the cheap.
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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #38 on: March 17, 2014, 06:56:07 PM »
Ok cool,  I'll be sure to give him a shout.   :)

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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #39 on: March 17, 2014, 09:29:29 PM »
Clutch parts are ordered.  :)
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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #40 on: March 18, 2014, 05:01:19 AM »
Just a thought about using something like an air hammer.

If the rivets are easily peened over with hand tools, that is the way I would recommend.
It allows the builder to sneak up on the right amount of peening so the friction material is held in place but not crushed.
It also reduces the chance of overdoing it and warping the underlying plates.

Just a thought. :)
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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #41 on: March 18, 2014, 12:23:11 PM »
Just a thought about using something like an air hammer.

If the rivets are easily peened over with hand tools, that is the way I would recommend.
It allows the builder to sneak up on the right amount of peening so the friction material is held in place but not crushed.
It also reduces the chance of overdoing it and warping the underlying plates.

Just a thought. :)

I was under the impression, that considering what the rivets need to hold, that they would be made out of steel.  Are they actually aluminum or pot metal or something?  Because if that's the case, I need to find a different method all together to mount the pads.  I'm not putting this clutch back together with a set of crap rivets.  You can forget about that.  If I can peen the rivets by hand, then I feel like they won't be strong enough for how I ride.     :-\

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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #42 on: March 18, 2014, 01:04:40 PM »
Max torque on those linings is not all that dramatic.
If you have about 2:1 primary ratio, then you have about double the engine torque as a max, plus some shock loading on hard shifts. Probably under 100 ft-lbs at max. You can turn a torque wrench that hard with your hands.

Most clutch and brake lining rivets that I have seen on Brit vehicles are copper or some variation like bronze.
If you are concerned, look up on the internet for some specialty adhesive for brake and clutch linings, and use both adhesive and rivets.
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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #43 on: March 18, 2014, 01:37:54 PM »
Scottie, we have one of these in our 350 racer - very good value for money and a big improvement  ;)

http://www.burtonbikebits.net/alloy_hard_anodized_splined_clut.htm

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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #44 on: March 19, 2014, 06:54:25 PM »
Ordered an E-Z Coil tap and coils today.  Should have them tomorrow so I can fix the "primary problem" (pun intended  ;D ) while I wait for the clutch parts to arrive.  Still looking into chemical resistant metal bond for the basket corks.

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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #45 on: March 23, 2014, 02:27:45 PM »
Why do parts take so long to show up from over seas?  Funny, it's like 20*F outside, a little snow on the ground and all I can think about is "When are my parts going to show up?!"   ;D

No matter, I have to go swap out the fuel pump on my Legacy after I get some coffee and pancakes in me.  ;)  Hopefully it won't be too big of a PITA, I'm going to be putting in a used fuel pump out of a newer H6 model.  So I will have a little more fuel pressure (hopefully it will help fill that gap of lack of power between 3/4 T and WOT) but I'm probably going to end up doing a little custom fab work.  If all goes to plan, I can do what I need my my garage.  But I'm not doing shit until it warms up a little.

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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #46 on: March 24, 2014, 12:57:17 PM »
When I was messing around with the bike yesterday I noticed that the bearing in the outer clutch/spring plate is seized.  Does anyone know if that bearing can be pressed out and if there is a sealed bearing that can be pressed in to replace it?  The release pin spins rather freely in there but I don't see the bearing moving at all and it takes some work to get it to move with my fingers.

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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #47 on: March 24, 2014, 01:10:40 PM »
The way I look at things like that is that if they put one in there, then it can be removed and replaced.
It may not be easy, but they got one in there when they made the thing.
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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #48 on: March 24, 2014, 02:12:24 PM »
Is this for the ratchet clutch?   ERC
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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #49 on: March 24, 2014, 02:54:24 PM »
Scissor clutch.  I brought it in to work and the bearing popped right out of the plate with a socket and hammer.  Took some measurements and the local bearing supplier has a new one in stock for $11.  Its on the way home so I'll stop and pick it up after work.

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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #50 on: March 24, 2014, 10:54:55 PM »
Great you found one Hitchcocks doesn't show it in there parts list. I even went to an original parts manual. None of them list it as a part you can buy. They just show a picture of it. With no #.  ERC
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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #51 on: March 25, 2014, 12:20:26 AM »
Not only did I find the right bearing in town, in stock, it is an EXACT match!!!!!  Best part is, it was on my way home and it only cost $12.01 out the door!  It took longer for me to measure the bearing and call in to put it on will call than it did to replace the bearing.







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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #52 on: March 25, 2014, 01:21:14 AM »
Sweet I'm writing that # down.  ERC
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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #53 on: March 25, 2014, 01:51:21 AM »
I called with the dimensions and described it to the guy and he responds "26 by 10 by 8 submerged bearing?  That's going to be a NAC6000.  I have 2 on the shelf."  That dude knows his bearings.

ERC - If you're in need and can't find one just let me know.   Or anyone else for that matter.    :)

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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #54 on: March 27, 2014, 10:14:04 PM »
Well, here I am, 10 days later and still no parts from Hitchcocks.  And God forbid they give you a tracking number to prove they actually shipped it when they said they did.  It better not take 2 1/2 weeks again.  I freaking HATE that I have to order parts from them, their deliveries are below sub par.

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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #55 on: March 28, 2014, 03:15:35 AM »
Well, here I am, 10 days later and still no parts from Hitchcocks.  And God forbid they give you a tracking number to prove they actually shipped it when they said they did.  It better not take 2 1/2 weeks again.  I freaking HATE that I have to order parts from them, their deliveries are below sub par.

Scottie J

As annoying it is waiting for parts, it is coming from half way across the world and I've found the UK postage system can be amazing, or shit. I ordered two things from the same supplier, posted same time. A month apart from each other.
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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #56 on: March 28, 2014, 04:01:08 AM »
Actually, England is only about a 1/3 of the way around the world.    ;)

I don't know what the deal is.  EVERYtime I order from Hitchcocks it takes at least a 1 1/2 weeks for it to show up.  When I ordered my ignition from England, it showed up in 5 days.  When I ordered parts from India they showed up in 4 days.  My wife has ordered stuff from China and it showed up in a week.  It just pisses me off that Hitchcocks has a monopoly on Vintage Enfield parts and they don't really seem to give a shit when people actually get their parts.    :-\  I was really hoping I would have my bike back together in time for the flat track open practice this Saturday.  That's not going to happen now.    :(

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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #57 on: March 28, 2014, 12:34:56 PM »
You have to have them send it with tracking. Costs more but you get it in a couple of days. Other than that it can take what seems like forever.  ERC
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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #58 on: March 28, 2014, 01:33:08 PM »
You know ERC, the one time I DID pay extra for tracking it didn't seem like it showed up any sooner so I haven't wasted my money on it since.  I guess I'll give it another try with my next order.  Frustrating none the less.

Happy Birthday too!!!   :D

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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #59 on: March 28, 2014, 11:20:13 PM »
If you had spent the money for tracking you would be able to see that your parts have been in Colorado Springs all week.  >:(
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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #60 on: March 29, 2014, 01:27:18 AM »
If you had spent the money for tracking you would be able to see that your parts have been in Colorado Springs all week.  >:(

Eeeek!    :o  I assume this happened to you?  ???

On a good note.  I guess some times you just have to vent and rant for something to happen.  My parts showed up today!  If you need me, I'll be out in the garage.    ;D

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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #61 on: March 29, 2014, 03:49:53 PM »
On the clutch basket, you just tighten the 3 bolts until they are tight correct?  Do they need Loctite too?     ???
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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #62 on: March 29, 2014, 04:30:50 PM »
On the clutch basket, you just tighten the 3 bolts until they are tight correct?  Do they need Loctite too?     ???

On the Bullet, it's just 7 ft-lbs torque on those small bolts. I don't know if the old ones you have are weak, but the Bullet ones twist the heads right off the bolts with hardly any force at all.
I never use Loctite on them.
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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #63 on: March 29, 2014, 04:45:30 PM »
I ordered new bolts because the heads on the old ones were chewed up.  Thanks Tom!
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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #64 on: March 29, 2014, 07:09:00 PM »
I always put an internal star lock washer on them. I think 80 in lbs is about right.   ERC
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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #65 on: March 30, 2014, 04:56:41 AM »
What a freaking fiasco.  Where the hell do I even start?  I guess with the arrival of the parts.  Everything showed up that I ordered, but God knows how long these parts have been sitting on the shelf.    :o  The packaging itself on all the parts was old and dry rotted and the plastic was falling apart.  The clutch plates looked good but had several several years of dust crusted onto the friction plates.  No big deal I just blew them off, but I didn't think to take a pic until I was about to blow off the last plate.



Next, the clutch springs had a bit of surface rust on them.  I didn't see any scaling or pitting and they all had consistent tension, so I just went ahead and used them.



Nothing real major and they were still in much better shape than the dinosaurs I pulled off of the bike.  First objective was to get the new 21 tooth sprocket on the front.  Holy crap what a difference in size!  I've changed front sprockets before, but usually only 1 or 2 teeth, never 3.  But it went right into place.  After loosening the rear wheel and shoving it all the way forward I was able to to get the chain back together I have the perfect tension on the chain, which was a concern because it's a brand new chain and I was afraid it was going to be too short.



Now I was happy to see that the new "cork inserts" are no longer made of cork and appear to be made with some kind hard composite much like a brake pad.  I decided that after talking to the guy that blltrdr recommended that I wanted to use some kind of bonding agent in conjunction with the rivets.  I ended up using 12 hour panel bond to bond the inserts to the clutch basket.  I use this stuff on occasion in auto body repairs.  It is designed to bond body panels to the vehicle in place of welding them and is guaranteed to hold for the life of the vehicle.  I don't know for sure about its' temperature limits or chemical resistance but my paint rep said that it should work well.  All I know is when use it as directed, it is about as permanent as anything you've ever seen.  It's practically impossible to unbond the panels once it has fully cured, which is why I used it sparingly.  To pound the rivets I took 3 small 1/4" sockets (5mm 6mm and 3/16" I believe it was) placed one directly under the rivet I was working on and the other 2 around the rim of the sprocket to support it and used a punch and hammer to pound the rivets.  It came out real nice and I didn't need any of the extra rivets.  Got all 7 of them on the first try.  ;)





After that I installed the primary cover with some loctite on the bolts and torqued them to 18 fps and let everything dry over night.  I don't think the cover is going to come loose again.   :)  This morning I went out and started assembling the clutch basket.  Everything went together real smooth and so I went onto making the custom clutch cable.  It was kind of a pain in my ass but I got it figured out.  Then I doctored up the original alternator off of the Chief as it was still good and just needed some new wires.  I got that all installed and as I was hooking it up to the Sparx one of the wires connectors came off exposing the wire.  And the battery was still hooked up.  And the wire grounded out on the chain guard.  And I'm pretty sure it fried the Sparx.    :'(

Put it all together and fire it up and it sounded good!  I went to put it in gear and as I'm pulling the lever I can feel and hear a loud chatter in the cable/lever except at full engage and full disengage.  I ride around the complex and it just doesn't sound or feel good at all.   >:(  I park it and go eat lunch come back out pull the primary cover to see whats up and saw the problem immediately.  The new clutch basket bolts that Hitchcock's supplied had too big of a head on them and were hitting the scissor brackets as they were passing thru.  So I pulled the bolts off one at a time and ground the heads down until they were about 5/16" thick and problem solved. 

I got it put back together shortly before the sun started to drop for the day so I went for a short ride around the neighborhood.  I have a totally different bike now!  COMPLETELY TRANSFORMED!!!  First thing I noticed is how smooth the transmission shifts now!  On a 30 minute ride I only had ONE missed shift!  I used to get missed shifts and false neutrals every other stop light.  Also the trans shifts so smooth now and I can barely tell the gear engaged.  NEXT, NO MORE SLIPPING!  In fact the clutch now works beautifully and engages quite well and certainly disengages 100%.  If I come off the clutch too fast it will actually squawk the tire.  And of course the gearing.  Just putting away from a stop it's a bit poochy if I don't rev it, I actually stalled it the first time.   ::)  But once it gets going it pulls so hard all the way thru 3rd!  I didn't get on the highway but I can tell already that this is going to be a huge improvement.  The gears run out so much longer and I still have plenty of torque to pull thru them.  I used to run out of steam at 75mph and red lined at 92mph, I now hit 70mph before I even shift out of 3rd!    ;D  And 4th gear is more like actual overdrive now, I can't hardly use it in town because I'm barely over idle at 40mph.

I had some struggles, but I am very VERY happy with the results.  As I mentioned, it's a completely different bike, and I am very pleased with the results of the clutch rebuild.

Oh, and how important is that big washer that goes over the crank bearing?  It had fallen off of my parts tray and didn't make it's way back on the bike.  I didn't even find the damn thing until I was done and cleaning up my mess.

Scottie J
« Last Edit: March 30, 2014, 05:06:44 AM by High On Octane »
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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #66 on: March 30, 2014, 12:34:14 PM »
Is this the washer that goes on the engine sprocket?  ERC
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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #67 on: March 30, 2014, 12:57:09 PM »
Yep, sure is.
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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #68 on: March 30, 2014, 02:36:11 PM »
That won't matter. The one you have to worry about is the one that goes behind the oil seal up against the bearing on the end of the crank. Without that in there the bearing could move out of the case towards the back side of the primary.  ERC
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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #69 on: March 30, 2014, 03:09:18 PM »
Oh man.  I that's one I left out.  Which means that I have to remove EVERYTHING to install it.  Fuck me.    :(
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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #70 on: March 30, 2014, 03:25:43 PM »
Well I guess the one thing I have going for me is that I didn't use a gasket between the primary and engine case this time, just some sealer, so it can only move about 1/8", but still.  I'm so mad at myself,  I swore I remembered everything.  But that one damn washer had fallen down behind where I couldn't see it.  And like I said I didn't even know it was missing until I cleaned up.  FUCK!!!!!    >:(    I'm so anal about NOT doing this type of shit so it just makes me so angry that I did.  Even after staring at the exploded engine poster on the wall a dozen different times.

Epic Fail For Scottie     :-X

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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #71 on: March 30, 2014, 03:55:19 PM »
You may not have to worry about it. It's right behind the seal so it may just be to keep the seal from moving back a forth. Frankly the last one I did was a couple of years ago. It should definitely be in there. But if your sick of doing it leave it and see what happens. May not be that big a deal. Could be it keeps oil from making it to the seal to help it from leaking.  ERC
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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #72 on: March 30, 2014, 04:10:31 PM »
Yeah, I'm going to just run it for now and keep a close ear on the bottom end.  I'll wait for the next late spring cold front to come thru and tear it back apart during some crappy weather.  It's just been so nice lately you know?  Anyways I'm going to go out for a ride around town, maybe hit a back road or 2, go get a hair cut.

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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #73 on: April 02, 2014, 12:36:41 PM »
I think next weekend a bunch of us in Denver are going to get together, mostly old school chops and cafes, and were going to line 'em up out in the country and a good 'ol fashioned street drag show down.  I hope it all works out, I'm excited!  :D

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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #74 on: April 02, 2014, 11:38:52 PM »
Well, it's official.  I just don't have enough HP for the 21 tooth front.  I mean, it has a sweet cruising RPM in 4th, but it's just so slow now.

 ???       https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5atPYaxX0lM       :-\

I CANNOT freaking launch it.  At all.  I think I'm going to order up a 20 tooth.  But, being that I need to tear it back apart to put the crank washer in anyways, I think I'm going to put the 18 tooth back on for now.  I'd rather have more torque than a better cruising speed, I'm a Hot Rodder not a cross country tourer!   ;D   Besides, how am I supposed to win anything next weekend if I'm sitting around at the line feathering my clutch trying to get going?!   ;)

But I can't let that 21 tooth sprocket go to waste, so I think The Blackhawk may be getting the ACE treatment sometime in the future.  :D

Scottie J
« Last Edit: April 02, 2014, 11:43:01 PM by High On Octane »
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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #75 on: April 03, 2014, 01:02:36 PM »
Don't know if this will help at all, Scottie, but this machine was fitted with the sidecar gearing by the factory when it was new. The gearbox sprocket is about to come off in this pic and solo gearing go on instead [amongst other things]. It was a 17 coming off and I put a 19 on. With the 17 on, it felt fit to burst at 80 mph, although it would have revved more [for a short while at least]  ;D
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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #76 on: April 03, 2014, 01:09:44 PM »
Well, I just did a little research and discovered that if I order another from NFG, I can get it shipped out with 3 day shipping for about the same price as if I ordered one from Hitchcocks with standard shipping, so that's a plus.

But I need some feedback, so here we go.......



If you look at the chart, the top right portion you can see that I have a 18, 19, 20, 21 and 22 sprockets listed in the final drive area.  The 21 tooth is highlighted as I thought that is what I needed.

Here are the facts:  With an 18T I can achieve a top speed of 92 mph, which according to the chart would be just shy of 6000 RPMs which historically is what this engine red lines at in stock form.  Well, actually, the valves float and can't get any more air flowing and the motor pukes out.  Anyways.  Now, with the 21T, I can only achieve a top speed of 95 mph which indicates an RPM of only 5276, 800 RPMs shy of red line, which indicates a gearing outside of peak HP and torque.  Now if you also observe, a 20T indicates 5831RPMs @ 100mph, a 19T - 5831RPMs @ 95mph and an 18T - 5831RPMs @ 90 mph, which is just shy of my previous top speed best.  Most of us know that these 700 twins were hitting The Ton in stock form (I believe 103mph was what was achieved in ancient road tests) back in the day.

So the question is, do I go with a 19T and hope to squeeze out 5 mph out of those last 169 RPMs or do I go with the 20T and hope that I have just enough torque to get it up to 5831RPMs?  ???

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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #77 on: April 03, 2014, 01:17:06 PM »
19t, no slack in the tappets, 1/2 gallon in tank, 40 psi in the rear tyre, 35 psi in the front, wear underpants only, flat on the tank, you should just about do it  ;D
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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #78 on: April 03, 2014, 01:22:52 PM »
19t, no slack in the tappets, 1/2 gallon in tank, 40 psi in the rear tyre, 35 psi in the front, wear underpants only, flat on the tank, you should just about do it  ;D
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I love your style B.W.!     ;D  Speaking of tappets, I think I heard some chatter yesterday.  I'd better pull the valve covers and take a peak.  ;)
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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #79 on: April 03, 2014, 03:04:28 PM »
Looking over your chart I see your RPM's @ 100 mph using a 19T will be 6138 which is additional 138 RPM's over your quote of 169 RPM's. If your bike can't pull to 6138 in top gear because of valve float you might need to use a different sprocket. It seems something between 19 and 20T would be optimal but not feasible. You could change out your rear sprocket to get you closer to your 6000 redline @ 100 mph. If you are using the stock speedo you might try a digital bicycle speedo or gps which could be the difference of you reaching the ton because it seems you will be close using the 19T.
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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #80 on: April 06, 2014, 01:52:41 PM »
So.......  I had an epiphany last night.  And a good one at that.

Yesterday, I REtimed my bike.  I didn't have a timing light, but I did have a 360* plastic compass from my college survey drafting class I took a few years ago.  Luckily, it reads 360* in both directions.  So I pulled the primary cover off and set the piston to TDC, rocking the rear tire back and forth until I had the piston centered perfectly.  I then taped the compass to the rotor on the crank and used white touch up paint to make a single mark on the rotor, 1 mark on the alternator at TDC and 1 more mark 34* BTDC.  I then brought the piston around to 34* BTDC and then aligned my ignition rotor to fire right at the 34* BTDC mark fully retarded.  The bike fired on the first kick and with the abnormally high idle, I obviously had made a significant increase in ignition advancement.  Now, I don't have as much low end torque, but I do have significantly more mid range and top end revs and overall the bike pulls harder.

Since I've started on this bike I've slowly been getting it tuned better and better.  Every couple of months I manage to squeeze 1 or 2 more mph out of my top speed best.  My first attempt at trying to hit The Ton I only managed 87mph.  I eventually improved that to 90mph, then 91mph and 92, and now it seems that 93mph is all I can squeeze out of this motor with the 21T front sprocket.  Not a bad speed, and with it's current state of tune, it seems I can achieve that 93mph faster than ever, but that's it.  Still not The Ton.

Sitting in the garage yesterday after my last top speed run, I was trying to figure WHY in the World can I NOT get anything better than 93mph?  Even with a 21 tooth sprocket on there, I should have gotten CLOSER to The Ton than just 1mph.  Then it hit me all of a sudden and all the information started flooding in my head, like in the movies when a detective is just breaking the case!

CAMSHAFTS!!!!!


My particular bike is an abominated red-headed step-child.  Remember when I 1st started restoring this thing there was a lot of confusion as to what I actually had?  "Its a Trailblazer.  No, it's an Apache.  No it has to be a Trailblazer.  But it has these parts from the Apache."  I finally came to the conclusion that according to the number stamps, I do in fact have a Trailblazer.  But.  BUT, this bike has ALLLLLLL kinds of different parts on it that weren't issued on most RE/Indian models.  The Trailblazer is supposed to be based off of the Super Meteor.  BUT, my bike has a scissor clutch, found on the Connies.  I also have a K2F mag, also not a SM issued part.  On top of that, I also have the auto-advance on my mag which wasn't standard on ANY RE in '58 (to the best of my knowledge).  I also have a dual instrument casquette, not issued on any of the RE/Indian models.

So there is only ONE possible thing that is keeping my bike from hitting The Ton.......  I have the super wimpy Super Meteor camshafts with only .3125 lift on the intake and exhaust!  That's why in my videos it doesn't sound like I'm hitting 6000RPMs, because I'm not!  These wimpy camshafts aren't flowing enough fuel and air to even HIT 6000 RPMs.  Which does theoretically prove my argument that I am in fact not getting enough fuel at high RPMs.

But I do have a trick up my sleeve.  ;D  My Chief came with a pair of EX2 camshafts, The "hot cam" set up for the US issued Connies and Chiefs.  It basically uses a Connie exhaust camshaft on both the intake and exhaust sides.  And what are the lift on these cams you might be asking?  .328   Not crazy big, but BIGGER than what I have in there now.  My only concern is that 1 lobe on 1 of the camshafts has some corrosion on it.  I'll take a Roloc disc to it and clean it up and see how bad the lobe is actually pitted.  I think it's salvageable.  If it's not, I'll just use the 1 good camshaft and slap it on the exhaust side.  Might not be a huge improvement, but should make it run a little better.

Scottie J
« Last Edit: April 07, 2014, 12:26:37 AM by High On Octane »
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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #81 on: April 06, 2014, 03:02:24 PM »
Hi Scottie, if  I have read you right, you have your ignition going off at 34 deg BTDC fully retarded, so you must have getting on for 60 deg BTDC timing fully advanced, which is too early to give you the best from this motor. I would want about 35 to 38 deg fully advanced. I don't want to piss on your chips, just trying to help.
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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #82 on: April 06, 2014, 03:09:05 PM »
Hi Scottie, if  I have read you right, you have your ignition going off at 34 deg BTDC fully retarded, so you must have getting on for 60 deg BTDC timing fully advanced, which is too early to give you the best from this motor. I would want about 35 to 38 deg fully advanced. I don't want to piss on your chips, just trying to help.
 B.W.

LOL    OK  I was just going off of what my ignition installation instructions told me to do.  I'll admit, I'm still confused as to what kind of advance curve the auto mechanism actually has.  It's hard to decipher just where exactly this damn thing should be.   :-\  All, I know is that when I tried to do this technique based off of TDC I kicked for 15 minutes with barely a sputter.
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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #83 on: April 06, 2014, 03:13:38 PM »
I think you need to use a strobe in conjunction with your marks on the rotor, then you will know for certain what's happening and when  ;)
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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #84 on: April 06, 2014, 03:35:20 PM »
I knew you were going to say that!  Well, it's running good and I don't have a light at the moment and I'm heading out to the dirt track with some riding buddies to ride some hot laps.  I'm bringing enough tools to make any necessary changes.  I don't hear the bike pinging and it's running better than before so I must be close.

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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #85 on: April 06, 2014, 03:48:05 PM »
Scottie,
If that one cam is too bad to be used, you can just use the good .328" one on the inlet, and use the stock .3125" exhaust cam. We don't use the same lift on intake and exhaust on any of our cams. It is common that the exhaust cam would have lower lift in many applications. I think it would do fine.

And I definitely agree that the 34*BTDC should be at the fully advanced position. You might even be able to take more advance than that, if you ping time it by ear under load up a hill in top gear at approximately torque peak rpm.
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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #86 on: April 06, 2014, 11:36:44 PM »
I have access to a couple of timing lights, I just didn't yesterday, and I was trying to get the bike ready for the race track today.  So to get right down to it, the bike ran like a champ!  I did almost exactly 180 miles today, about 165 of which were freeway averaging speeds of 75mph with burst of 85-90mph.  Took a break about every 40 miles or so.  Did a total of 18 laps on the race track ripping in 2nd gear.  Other than the tranny missing the occasional 3rd gear and the loop of false neutrals trying to downshift, the bike didn't miss a beat!  I on the other hand am wore the fuck out.  20-30mph cross winds and the lack of a second layer of clothing really took a toll on the body, I am very sore and crampy.  But you know what?  The 3 1/2 hours or boring prairie cruising was totally worth the 15 minutes of fun!

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« Last Edit: April 07, 2014, 01:39:51 AM by High On Octane »
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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #87 on: April 08, 2014, 03:24:31 AM »
OK, so I timed the bike with a light tonight.  AND my timing was set at roughly 30* BTDC about 3/4" retarded on the actual rotor.  Like I said, pretty close.  On only my second adjustment, I got her dead freaking nuts exactly 34* BTDC!  Who's a bad ass!?  LOL   ;D  I took video of shooting the light on the rotor but you can't really see it in the video.  But you can hear on the 3rd shot how the throttle just snaps alive instantly now.

AND FOR THE BONUS POINT:  After looking at my Super Meteor manual when I got home I discovered that I can swap the camshafts by simply removing the timing gears and bearing caps and rotating them out without disassembling the top end.  Yeah Buddy!

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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #88 on: April 08, 2014, 04:24:26 AM »
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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #89 on: April 08, 2014, 06:54:23 AM »
All good, stuff Scottie  8) For extra peace of mind, I would lay the machine on its' side to perform a cam swap, just to make sure the pushrods etc stay located as intended  ;)
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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #90 on: April 09, 2014, 11:47:16 AM »
Well, I'll be honest.  I guess I don't have a clue how the hell I came up with my previous timing set up, and quite frankly I barely remember doing it.  All I know is with the timing officially at 34* BTDC, the bike.....  Ummmm.....  Well, I only went down the road and back, but it DEFINITELY revved harder and higher than it ever has before since I've taken ownership!  WOT 2nd and 3rd gear I felt like I actually had to hold on tighter so I didn't fly off of the back of the bike!  Messing around in 1st the front tire darn near picks up off of the ground just rolling on the throttle.

All this time, I thought I was on the edge of being too far advanced, when in fact I was too far retarded.  I think the real confusion set in because I had the carb dialed in for that retarded timing set up, so when I did advance it closer to where it needed to be the motor started racing, making me think, "Oops, too far forward."  I know the bike always started and ran well before, but now it takes a lot less effort to kick over.  Idles a lot lower when cold and I actually have to hold the throttle open a crack for a minute or 2 til the blood gets flowing otherwise it knocks a bit trying to idle at 600 RPMs.  Once it warms up tho idles at around 1000 RPMs and purrs like an anxious lion ready to bite.

I don't know if this timing change will net me those extra few mph to Ton Up, but I do know that what ever speed I achieve I will be getting there way faster than ever before.  I think I'm going to ride into work today too.  Supposed to be nearly 70*F today, perfect riding weather.

I think the 21 tooth front is a definite keeper now that I have the bike tuned better.  ;)

Also, thanks again everyone for helping me troubleshoot this bike!  I Love This Forum!  :D

Scottie J
« Last Edit: April 09, 2014, 11:56:59 AM by High On Octane »
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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #91 on: April 09, 2014, 12:18:25 PM »
Having more advance, and the re-tune, should help the top end. You might make The Ton now. The hemi chambers do like a lot of advance.
But, you do have to keep an ear out for ping, especially at lower rpms when going up hills or heavily loaded with large throttle openings.

As soon as I saw those spark plug photos, I knew that engine could take more advance.
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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #92 on: April 09, 2014, 12:28:00 PM »
I NEVER lug the motor in any situation in my cars or bikes.  If I hit the gas the and I don't move faster, I downshift immediately.  I'm glad I posted the pics of the plugs the other day otherwise I probably would have still been clueless as to what my problem was.  Actually, just for fun I think I may pick up another set of plugs today.  And my bike made me laugh and smile yesterday.  I've always had a bit of talking from my exhaust, but now with the new timing, she really pops when I close the throttle now.  I may need a bigger pilot jet, or maybe not.  I'm rarely just chilling at idle, and I do go out of my way blipping the throttle just to make it pop.  ;D

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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #93 on: April 09, 2014, 04:05:30 PM »
Well, I WAS going to ride into work.  Had it all warmed and decided to give the battery another check.....  Only 11.83v.  I shut her down and rolled her back into the garage.  I'm picking up a new Tympanium on my lunch.

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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #94 on: April 09, 2014, 07:52:05 PM »
I picked up my Tympanium on my lunch break.  It's nice having a parts supplier 15 minutes away from work.   :)  They had a beautiful classic Bonneville twin sitting out front.  I should've taken a pic, it looked brand new with all the classic cafe touches.

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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #95 on: April 10, 2014, 02:18:25 AM »
I wasn't trying to Ton Up today, but I was getting on her pretty good.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5RuDI7nfWU&feature=youtu.be

I also got the Tympanium installed.  I think I have a short somewhere in my lighting circuit tho because with the lights off the voltage is in the high 13's low 14's.  But when I kick the lights on the voltage drops to low high 12's low 13's and then after a few minutes apparently the fuse blows.    ???
« Last Edit: April 10, 2014, 02:22:08 AM by High On Octane »
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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #96 on: April 10, 2014, 01:29:19 PM »
Sounding much better, and getting higher into the revs.
Sharper exhaust note too. Definitely a better tune than before.
It should get closer to the Ton than before. Maybe you'll even get it this time.

Here's a little 17 second video of a proven Ton-Up Fireball, so you can hear the 6000 rpm sound in the distance at the beginning of this drive-by video. Then he starts downshifting to slow for the stop sign, but it sounds very nice coming down off the throttle and thru the gears on the way down too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5ViWDmKo4Y

And that's a one-lung 500, so your pair of 350(700 twin) should sound a little revvier than that, even at the same rpm. I think you are probably getting into the right neighborhood for rpms now.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2014, 01:51:34 PM by ace.cafe »
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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #97 on: April 10, 2014, 03:46:39 PM »
Love those videos you do. Maybe you should give up the bike and get into full time action video.  ERC
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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #98 on: April 13, 2014, 09:05:07 AM »
I demand more burnout videos!
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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #99 on: April 13, 2014, 11:42:52 AM »
Funny!  I was actually going to compete in a burnout contest yesterday morning that a local radio DJ was hosting.  BUT, my boss made me come into work yesterday morning so I only got to hear about it on the radio instead.  So, I have been planning on doing another one, just waiting for the right time and place.  I am going to be moving out of my apartment here in a couple of weeks.  Maybe I'll do one here as I'm leaving for the last time as a Grand Finale!     ;D
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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #100 on: April 13, 2014, 03:16:40 PM »
Does the new place have a good place to work?  ERC
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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #101 on: April 13, 2014, 03:38:05 PM »
Sadly it does not, I'm losing my garage for now.  :(  I will have a car port which isn't the same but better than nothing.  Looks like I'll be moving a lot of my stuff out to the actual shop except for my tools.  I'm kind of pissed about it because my wife signed the lease on this new place without my knowing.  She just sends me a text one day "I signed the lease on the new apartment.  You need to go down after work soon so you can sign it too".  Damn woman!  I should buy a bunch of plywood and wall in my car port and MAKE it a garage.  ;)
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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #102 on: April 13, 2014, 06:21:07 PM »
What a bummer. Maybe you could find a cheap garage to rent, then you wouldn't have to worry about the roof over your head part.  ERC
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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #103 on: April 13, 2014, 06:24:30 PM »
If I was single, I think I would just rent a garage and put a cot in it.
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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #104 on: April 13, 2014, 07:02:40 PM »
DELETED
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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #105 on: April 13, 2014, 10:03:44 PM »
What was deleted?   ???  ERC
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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #106 on: April 13, 2014, 10:07:25 PM »
I accidentally posted the the flat track races on this thread, so I deleted it and moved.  I guess I could of just as well left.  :)
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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #107 on: April 15, 2014, 03:13:30 AM »
Well, I got some great news when I got home today after a horrible freaking day at work.  Our neighbors who has become friends with our family informed us that her good friend is moving to Virgina and is renting out her 2 bed 2 bath condo WITH garage for only $1100 a month!  The leasing agent is calling my wife in the morning to discuss the details.  Our friend said that she knows the person very well, and to tell her after we speak to him so she can call him herself "and talk to him to make sure we get the condo".   Man I sure hope this pans out.  Fingers crossed!   :)

Scottie J
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The Blackhawk
1958 Enfield/Indian 711cc Twin

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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #108 on: April 16, 2014, 11:40:26 AM »
I've been eyeballing these for a while now.  I think I can make them work by mounting them where the Hitchcocks ones mount in the "looped" hole towards the rearmost lower part of the frame.  For the shifter mount I'm thinking of just hacking up the the original shifter and welding/modding it to work with a Scottie Jlinkage kit.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/UNIVERSAL-REARSETS-honda-yamaha-cafe-racer-cb750-xs650-cb550-cb350-cb450-bobber-/351045039851

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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #109 on: April 17, 2014, 07:01:52 AM »
I just read on the other thread where you said that you don't have a duckbill on your bike yet.
That is a necessary item, especially on a small dry sump engine like that.
It's probably costing you 1-2 hp in pumping losses to leave that breather open like that. And if it's upsetting the ring sealing, then you're losing even more.
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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #110 on: April 17, 2014, 11:00:09 AM »
I've been meaning to order one and I always forget about it until I run the bike hard and get oil sprayed all over the rear half of the bike.  I'm curious tho.  Why is it I can order one from India for less than $5 shipped out, but they are $12.95 + shipping thru NFG?  Is it really worth me spending the $15 "convenience fee" to have it i a couple of days instead of a couple of weeks?  In fact I can order a pack of TEN duck bills for the same price as thru NFG.  Maybe I should just order a 10 pack a and sell a couple of them on the cheap.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Trade-Pack-Genuine-Duckbill-Breather-Hose-Pipe-140167-EnfieldSpares24x7-/181280186909?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2a3524221d&vxp=mtr

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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #111 on: April 17, 2014, 11:59:05 AM »
It's just their mark-up.
However, for certain things, it's worth it to have them act as the quality screener for a product, because they send you a good item, and have to deal with sending the defective ones back to India.

You wouldn't believe the absolutely worthless defective shit that some of these India vendors will ship to you. On the streets in India, thete is a thriving industry of knock-off parts. Maybe some good, but a lot of bad. Nothing is wasted there. They try to find somebody to stick with the junk, no matter how bad it is. A lot of that ends up on Ebay.

You can get good stuff on Ebay too. It's a "crap-shoot", though. If you have to send a heavy item back because it was defective, the return shipping costs you more than the item is worth. So then you are stuck with it and you can't blame the vendor because he says he'll replace the bad item if you return the bad one. That's how it works.

With duckbills, it might be worth the risk because they are cheap and the shipping is light weight and not very high. Probably a good idea to order a quantity if they are that cheap, because it will raise the chances that there will be some good ones in there. Oh, and saying "Genuine Royal Enfield Spares" generally means that they had the printer down the street print up bags or stickers that are copies of RE bags.

So , this happens to NField gear too. They "buffer" you from the defects, and pick the good ones out of the mess, and if they pass thru a bad one, you can return it cheaply and easily to them for replacement. They take the losses or the hassle on the load of crap that remains.
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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #112 on: April 23, 2014, 12:01:02 AM »
I can NOT freaking believe this.  ANOTHER fucking electrical failure!!!     >:(

I've been hearing this weird chatter coming from the primary which I just passed off as clutch chatter.  Well it turns out that the rotor I used from the Chief was in the process of failing, or the PO installed the woodruff key wrong.  Anyways, the bike started misfiring 3 miles away from home on my way back from work.  I killed the lights and went away for the most part and I'm saying to myself "you've got to be kidding me."  I grab the primary cover at the next light and it was tight so I'm wondering what the hell is going on.  I get home and I NEED to know what happened so I start pulling the primary cover off to find out that the HUB on the rotor ovaled out and was wobbling inside the alternator.  After looking at the rotor hub a little closer, it looks like the key way on the hub itself is worn to about twice the size as it is supposed to be.  Even with the woodruff key inserted properly there is about a 1/4" of play in all directions.

I'm so frustrated right now.     :-[
« Last Edit: April 23, 2014, 12:02:46 PM by High On Octane »
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The Blackhawk
1958 Enfield/Indian 711cc Twin

Building the 1st EVER Supercharged RE Twin
FULL RACE motor with ACE Performance