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Author Topic: My Quest To Hit the Ton  (Read 2594 times)

Bullet Whisperer

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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #75 on: April 03, 2014, 01:02:36 PM »
Don't know if this will help at all, Scottie, but this machine was fitted with the sidecar gearing by the factory when it was new. The gearbox sprocket is about to come off in this pic and solo gearing go on instead [amongst other things]. It was a 17 coming off and I put a 19 on. With the 17 on, it felt fit to burst at 80 mph, although it would have revved more [for a short while at least]  ;D
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High On Octane

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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #76 on: April 03, 2014, 01:09:44 PM »
Well, I just did a little research and discovered that if I order another from NFG, I can get it shipped out with 3 day shipping for about the same price as if I ordered one from Hitchcocks with standard shipping, so that's a plus.

But I need some feedback, so here we go.......



If you look at the chart, the top right portion you can see that I have a 18, 19, 20, 21 and 22 sprockets listed in the final drive area.  The 21 tooth is highlighted as I thought that is what I needed.

Here are the facts:  With an 18T I can achieve a top speed of 92 mph, which according to the chart would be just shy of 6000 RPMs which historically is what this engine red lines at in stock form.  Well, actually, the valves float and can't get any more air flowing and the motor pukes out.  Anyways.  Now, with the 21T, I can only achieve a top speed of 95 mph which indicates an RPM of only 5276, 800 RPMs shy of red line, which indicates a gearing outside of peak HP and torque.  Now if you also observe, a 20T indicates 5831RPMs @ 100mph, a 19T - 5831RPMs @ 95mph and an 18T - 5831RPMs @ 90 mph, which is just shy of my previous top speed best.  Most of us know that these 700 twins were hitting The Ton in stock form (I believe 103mph was what was achieved in ancient road tests) back in the day.

So the question is, do I go with a 19T and hope to squeeze out 5 mph out of those last 169 RPMs or do I go with the 20T and hope that I have just enough torque to get it up to 5831RPMs?  ???

Scottie J
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Bullet Whisperer

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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #77 on: April 03, 2014, 01:17:06 PM »
19t, no slack in the tappets, 1/2 gallon in tank, 40 psi in the rear tyre, 35 psi in the front, wear underpants only, flat on the tank, you should just about do it  ;D
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High On Octane

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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #78 on: April 03, 2014, 01:22:52 PM »
19t, no slack in the tappets, 1/2 gallon in tank, 40 psi in the rear tyre, 35 psi in the front, wear underpants only, flat on the tank, you should just about do it  ;D
 B.W.

I love your style B.W.!     ;D  Speaking of tappets, I think I heard some chatter yesterday.  I'd better pull the valve covers and take a peak.  ;)
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Blltrdr

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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #79 on: April 03, 2014, 03:04:28 PM »
Looking over your chart I see your RPM's @ 100 mph using a 19T will be 6138 which is additional 138 RPM's over your quote of 169 RPM's. If your bike can't pull to 6138 in top gear because of valve float you might need to use a different sprocket. It seems something between 19 and 20T would be optimal but not feasible. You could change out your rear sprocket to get you closer to your 6000 redline @ 100 mph. If you are using the stock speedo you might try a digital bicycle speedo or gps which could be the difference of you reaching the ton because it seems you will be close using the 19T.
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High On Octane

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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #80 on: April 06, 2014, 01:52:41 PM »
So.......  I had an epiphany last night.  And a good one at that.

Yesterday, I REtimed my bike.  I didn't have a timing light, but I did have a 360* plastic compass from my college survey drafting class I took a few years ago.  Luckily, it reads 360* in both directions.  So I pulled the primary cover off and set the piston to TDC, rocking the rear tire back and forth until I had the piston centered perfectly.  I then taped the compass to the rotor on the crank and used white touch up paint to make a single mark on the rotor, 1 mark on the alternator at TDC and 1 more mark 34* BTDC.  I then brought the piston around to 34* BTDC and then aligned my ignition rotor to fire right at the 34* BTDC mark fully retarded.  The bike fired on the first kick and with the abnormally high idle, I obviously had made a significant increase in ignition advancement.  Now, I don't have as much low end torque, but I do have significantly more mid range and top end revs and overall the bike pulls harder.

Since I've started on this bike I've slowly been getting it tuned better and better.  Every couple of months I manage to squeeze 1 or 2 more mph out of my top speed best.  My first attempt at trying to hit The Ton I only managed 87mph.  I eventually improved that to 90mph, then 91mph and 92, and now it seems that 93mph is all I can squeeze out of this motor with the 21T front sprocket.  Not a bad speed, and with it's current state of tune, it seems I can achieve that 93mph faster than ever, but that's it.  Still not The Ton.

Sitting in the garage yesterday after my last top speed run, I was trying to figure WHY in the World can I NOT get anything better than 93mph?  Even with a 21 tooth sprocket on there, I should have gotten CLOSER to The Ton than just 1mph.  Then it hit me all of a sudden and all the information started flooding in my head, like in the movies when a detective is just breaking the case!

CAMSHAFTS!!!!!


My particular bike is an abominated red-headed step-child.  Remember when I 1st started restoring this thing there was a lot of confusion as to what I actually had?  "Its a Trailblazer.  No, it's an Apache.  No it has to be a Trailblazer.  But it has these parts from the Apache."  I finally came to the conclusion that according to the number stamps, I do in fact have a Trailblazer.  But.  BUT, this bike has ALLLLLLL kinds of different parts on it that weren't issued on most RE/Indian models.  The Trailblazer is supposed to be based off of the Super Meteor.  BUT, my bike has a scissor clutch, found on the Connies.  I also have a K2F mag, also not a SM issued part.  On top of that, I also have the auto-advance on my mag which wasn't standard on ANY RE in '58 (to the best of my knowledge).  I also have a dual instrument casquette, not issued on any of the RE/Indian models.

So there is only ONE possible thing that is keeping my bike from hitting The Ton.......  I have the super wimpy Super Meteor camshafts with only .3125 lift on the intake and exhaust!  That's why in my videos it doesn't sound like I'm hitting 6000RPMs, because I'm not!  These wimpy camshafts aren't flowing enough fuel and air to even HIT 6000 RPMs.  Which does theoretically prove my argument that I am in fact not getting enough fuel at high RPMs.

But I do have a trick up my sleeve.  ;D  My Chief came with a pair of EX2 camshafts, The "hot cam" set up for the US issued Connies and Chiefs.  It basically uses a Connie exhaust camshaft on both the intake and exhaust sides.  And what are the lift on these cams you might be asking?  .328   Not crazy big, but BIGGER than what I have in there now.  My only concern is that 1 lobe on 1 of the camshafts has some corrosion on it.  I'll take a Roloc disc to it and clean it up and see how bad the lobe is actually pitted.  I think it's salvageable.  If it's not, I'll just use the 1 good camshaft and slap it on the exhaust side.  Might not be a huge improvement, but should make it run a little better.

Scottie J
« Last Edit: April 07, 2014, 12:26:37 AM by High On Octane »
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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #81 on: April 06, 2014, 03:02:24 PM »
Hi Scottie, if  I have read you right, you have your ignition going off at 34 deg BTDC fully retarded, so you must have getting on for 60 deg BTDC timing fully advanced, which is too early to give you the best from this motor. I would want about 35 to 38 deg fully advanced. I don't want to piss on your chips, just trying to help.
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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #82 on: April 06, 2014, 03:09:05 PM »
Hi Scottie, if  I have read you right, you have your ignition going off at 34 deg BTDC fully retarded, so you must have getting on for 60 deg BTDC timing fully advanced, which is too early to give you the best from this motor. I would want about 35 to 38 deg fully advanced. I don't want to piss on your chips, just trying to help.
 B.W.

LOL    OK  I was just going off of what my ignition installation instructions told me to do.  I'll admit, I'm still confused as to what kind of advance curve the auto mechanism actually has.  It's hard to decipher just where exactly this damn thing should be.   :-\  All, I know is that when I tried to do this technique based off of TDC I kicked for 15 minutes with barely a sputter.
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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #83 on: April 06, 2014, 03:13:38 PM »
I think you need to use a strobe in conjunction with your marks on the rotor, then you will know for certain what's happening and when  ;)
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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #84 on: April 06, 2014, 03:35:20 PM »
I knew you were going to say that!  Well, it's running good and I don't have a light at the moment and I'm heading out to the dirt track with some riding buddies to ride some hot laps.  I'm bringing enough tools to make any necessary changes.  I don't hear the bike pinging and it's running better than before so I must be close.

Scottie J
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ace.cafe

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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #85 on: April 06, 2014, 03:48:05 PM »
Scottie,
If that one cam is too bad to be used, you can just use the good .328" one on the inlet, and use the stock .3125" exhaust cam. We don't use the same lift on intake and exhaust on any of our cams. It is common that the exhaust cam would have lower lift in many applications. I think it would do fine.

And I definitely agree that the 34*BTDC should be at the fully advanced position. You might even be able to take more advance than that, if you ping time it by ear under load up a hill in top gear at approximately torque peak rpm.
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High On Octane

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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #86 on: April 06, 2014, 11:36:44 PM »
I have access to a couple of timing lights, I just didn't yesterday, and I was trying to get the bike ready for the race track today.  So to get right down to it, the bike ran like a champ!  I did almost exactly 180 miles today, about 165 of which were freeway averaging speeds of 75mph with burst of 85-90mph.  Took a break about every 40 miles or so.  Did a total of 18 laps on the race track ripping in 2nd gear.  Other than the tranny missing the occasional 3rd gear and the loop of false neutrals trying to downshift, the bike didn't miss a beat!  I on the other hand am wore the fuck out.  20-30mph cross winds and the lack of a second layer of clothing really took a toll on the body, I am very sore and crampy.  But you know what?  The 3 1/2 hours or boring prairie cruising was totally worth the 15 minutes of fun!

Scottie J
« Last Edit: April 07, 2014, 01:39:51 AM by High On Octane »
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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #87 on: April 08, 2014, 03:24:31 AM »
OK, so I timed the bike with a light tonight.  AND my timing was set at roughly 30* BTDC about 3/4" retarded on the actual rotor.  Like I said, pretty close.  On only my second adjustment, I got her dead freaking nuts exactly 34* BTDC!  Who's a bad ass!?  LOL   ;D  I took video of shooting the light on the rotor but you can't really see it in the video.  But you can hear on the 3rd shot how the throttle just snaps alive instantly now.

AND FOR THE BONUS POINT:  After looking at my Super Meteor manual when I got home I discovered that I can swap the camshafts by simply removing the timing gears and bearing caps and rotating them out without disassembling the top end.  Yeah Buddy!

Scottie J
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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #88 on: April 08, 2014, 04:24:26 AM »
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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #89 on: April 08, 2014, 06:54:23 AM »
All good, stuff Scottie  8) For extra peace of mind, I would lay the machine on its' side to perform a cam swap, just to make sure the pushrods etc stay located as intended  ;)
 B.W.