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Author Topic: My Quest To Hit the Ton  (Read 2332 times)

High On Octane

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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #15 on: February 16, 2014, 02:53:21 PM »
Both my Chief and Trailblazer have a 29 tooth front sprocket.  Hitchcock's has other sizes available for the crank sprocket, but I think I'll be ok just changing the counter shaft sprocket.  I'm not even sure why the Connie comes with a 20TF and the Super Meteor comes with an 18TF.  I'm also throwing in 3 Surflex clutch plates, new springs and a new redesigned clutch pad roller thingy.  Hopefully that will get the clutch to stop slipping.  As far as the alternator goes, I guess the 3rd time is a charm right?  ???

Also while we're on the subject, what causes the the clutch basket to have a little slop and play in it?  Is that the cush drive rubber pieces that are worn out?  Or is there another bearing somewhere I'm not seeing.  It doesn't make any noise, I just notice it has a little bit of play when I have the primary cover off.

Scottie J
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ace.cafe

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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #16 on: February 19, 2014, 05:58:25 PM »
There is usually a large diameter circle of little ball bearings all the way around the clutch hub, where the basket rides on it. I don't have any specs on allowable play for that.
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coinzy

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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #17 on: February 23, 2014, 09:53:20 PM »
Twins also ran 32 or even 33 front sprockets from memory,you might consider these as it should mean less torque is transferred to the clutch,the torque at the back wheel is picked up again through the lower countershaft, that you can use.
Could help with your clutch slip :-\
Triumph clutch's were arguably better in that they used rollers instead of balls,that tended to hold the clutch plates more in line and helped reduce friction/drag.RE never caught on ::)
coinz

Blltrdr

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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #18 on: February 24, 2014, 01:55:12 AM »
You can contact Raceway Services in Salem OR. They can blueprint your clutch basket. They will reline it and true it up for about $120. Makes a big difference when you figure in the close tolerances involved with the clutch pack. http://www.racewayservices.comcastbiz.net/index.shtml
If you call them ask for Jim. Also I replaced all four stock friction plates with the Surflex plates. You most likely kept the heavily segmented plate. I thought there was some benefit in the heavy segmented plates since the upgrade friction plate kit sold for the 4spd are the stock 5spd friction plates. When switching out my four speed for a new 5spd box I decided to use the stock 5spd clutch pack. I had nothing but trouble and could never get it to quit slipping. I installed my Surflex clutch pack (4 plates) and my blueprinted clutch hub from Raceway Services and now have no clutch slip what so ever. I know Ace also recommends the Barnett plates but feel the Surflex are similar. Depending on HP you may need to go with a Newby clutch.
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High On Octane

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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #19 on: March 01, 2014, 04:13:15 PM »
So, I tore apart the primary cover for 1,378 time last night.  I have discovered that not only do I NOT need to remove the foot peg to get the cover off, but I don't even have to remove the rear brake pedal either, I just have to remove the push rod from the brake pedal and it drops completely out of the way.  So that's cool to learn!   :D

As for the clutch.  What a piece of crap!  I actually took a very close look at the individual pieces as I was tearing it apart, and what an archaic relic from the times of old!  As for the diagnosis.....  All the friction plates have plenty of material, but they are glazed like no clutch I've ever seen before.  Not to mention all the slop and play in every part of that clutch basket.  Needless to say, I now find myself at a cross roads.  Do I try and replace the crappy parts with slightly better parts and HOPE it doesn't slip anymore?  Or do I say fuck the dumb shit and order a clutch basket from Bob Newby, either chain or belt drive?  I'm inclined to get a Newby clutch, as the RE scissor clutch is nothing more than a semi-functioning 20 piece paper weight.

I'd rather be spending money on the Bonneville build, but damn it, I don't like not being able to ride anything at all either.     >:(

And Blltrdr - I do appreciate that info for the clutch basket blue printing, but I'm done polishing turds.  Sure, I could send it out and have that turd better than ever.  But it's still a turd, it still stinks, it's just shinier now.  LOL   ;D  But I am curious.....  You are in fact running the Sureflex plates in your clutch now.  Correct?  What are your thoughts on their performance?  Is it actually worth trying?  I'm already laying down way more torque than this clutch can handle as is, and I only plan on making it faster once the Bonneville bike is complete.  Maybe it's worth the money just replacing the entire clutch now and be done with it and having the security in mind that it will never be an issue again?   ???

Scottie J
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ace.cafe

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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #20 on: March 01, 2014, 11:17:24 PM »
Newby has the wet clutch that is less expensive than the belt drive and dry clutch,  and works with the regular primary stuff that's already there.
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head . Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available .  AVL mods. Redditch 700/750 Twin mods. UCE kit soon.

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High On Octane

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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #21 on: March 01, 2014, 11:25:56 PM »
Newby has the wet clutch that is less expensive than the belt drive and dry clutch,  and works with the regular primary stuff that's already there.

That's actually the kit I'm leaning towards.
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da punds

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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #22 on: March 02, 2014, 12:35:15 PM »
I would go for the wet Newby every time for a road bike, I have the dry version and I only have to miss a couple of weeks turning it over in the winter for the plates to bind up. I have never had any riding issues, light clutch no slip even with a reasonably tuned motor. The best mod I ever did to my motor, just go for it you won't regret it.

Blltrdr

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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #23 on: March 02, 2014, 07:26:09 PM »
So, I tore apart the primary cover for 1,378 time last night.  I have discovered that not only do I NOT need to remove the foot peg to get the cover off, but I don't even have to remove the rear brake pedal either, I just have to remove the push rod from the brake pedal and it drops completely out of the way.  So that's cool to learn!   :D

As for the clutch.  What a piece of crap!  I actually took a very close look at the individual pieces as I was tearing it apart, and what an archaic relic from the times of old!  As for the diagnosis.....  All the friction plates have plenty of material, but they are glazed like no clutch I've ever seen before.  Not to mention all the slop and play in every part of that clutch basket.  Needless to say, I now find myself at a cross roads.  Do I try and replace the crappy parts with slightly better parts and HOPE it doesn't slip anymore?  Or do I say fuck the dumb shit and order a clutch basket from Bob Newby, either chain or belt drive?  I'm inclined to get a Newby clutch, as the RE scissor clutch is nothing more than a semi-functioning 20 piece paper weight.

I'd rather be spending money on the Bonneville build, but damn it, I don't like not being able to ride anything at all either.     >:(

And Blltrdr - I do appreciate that info for the clutch basket blue printing, but I'm done polishing turds.  Sure, I could send it out and have that turd better than ever.  But it's still a turd, it still stinks, it's just shinier now.  LOL   ;D  But I am curious.....  You are in fact running the Sureflex plates in your clutch now.  Correct?  What are your thoughts on their performance?  Is it actually worth trying?  I'm already laying down way more torque than this clutch can handle as is, and I only plan on making it faster once the Bonneville bike is complete.  Maybe it's worth the money just replacing the entire clutch now and be done with it and having the security in mind that it will never be an issue again?   ???

Scottie J

Yes I am running four Surflex plates with the reworked basket from Raceway Services and they work great. Probably work great on your street bike, but for your Bonneville bike I would go Newby. Really the Newby clutch is probably your only option for the type of speed your attempting to achieve. Knowing the cost of one of these clutch kits pales in comparison to the costs you are going to incur going to Bonneville. It wouldn't be a bad idea to call up Raceway Services and have a conversation with Jim. I'm not sure if he can shed any light on helping you fix your clutch issues but he is a really knowledgeable guy that might be able to suggest an alternative solution. Dan Holmes would be another person to contact because of his Bonneville experience. http://bonnevillebullet.org/bonnevillebullet/
2003 Classic 500 5 spd
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High On Octane

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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #24 on: March 16, 2014, 01:24:52 PM »
I'm trying to get parts lined up to be ordered from Hitchcock's tomorrow.  I'm not willing to fork out the money for Newby clutch on the Blackhawk right now and I can't decide if I should order some Sureflex plates and use my old steel plates or if I should order the "Improved Clutch Service Kit" that has springs and both steel and friction plates.  I don't think the "Improved" kit has the Sureflex plates tho.  Does anyone know the answer to that?  Also, do you think it would be worth installing 6 heavy springs as opposed to 3 standard and 3 heavy?  I realize the lever will be heavier but I'm not quite over the hill yet and still have some strength left in my clutch hand.  :)

Also, for refinishing the friction liners on the basket itself.....  Just use some brake cleaner and some 220 grit sand paper?  ???  Or should I just order the re-liner kit?  How hard is it to set the rivets good for the re-liner kit?  Also, does Hitchcocks's supply any kind of prehistoric fossils when ordering replacement parts for a scissor clutch?    ;D

And one last thing, if I go with individual plates, can I sneak an extra friction and steel plate in there?  It looked like I have the room before I tore it all apart.

Scottie J
« Last Edit: March 16, 2014, 01:26:59 PM by High On Octane »
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ace.cafe

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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #25 on: March 16, 2014, 01:42:56 PM »
I don't know any specifics about the scissor clutch.

If the plates are like the Bullet, there are Barnett plates available. Also, Chumma had some special Barnett plates made that are thinner, so that he could sneak an extra plate in the basket. I don't know if he has any of those left.

The general methods of clean friction plates, perfectly flat steel plates with scuffed-up surfaces(120 grit), heavy springs, and Type F ATF, should do the job  unless the engine is putting out a lot more power than stock.
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High On Octane

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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #26 on: March 16, 2014, 02:00:44 PM »
This is what I have selected do far.  I can't seem to find a way to order 6 heavy springs, they only come in a kit of 3 and 3.  I need a clutch cable too but I think I'm just going to build my own cable.



It will probably be just over $200 after shipping.  A nice little investment to assure I hit The Ton.  ;)

Scottie J
« Last Edit: March 16, 2014, 02:04:52 PM by High On Octane »
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ace.cafe

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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #27 on: March 16, 2014, 02:26:10 PM »
We can hit the Ton on a Fireball with a similar clutch package. Use the Type F ATF.

At the dyno shop we used, they had some archived charts of some vintage British twins they had dyno'd. Our Fireball was within about 1 hp either way of the Triumph and BSA 650 and 750 twins that they had dyno'd previously. So we know that that clutch set-up should be able to hold your amount of power. It's close, and we slip if we don't use the ATF.

Also, if your clutch throw-out rod is segmented with a single ball bearing between the segments, like a Bullet, replace the steel ball bearing with a good quality ceramic ball bearing.  Lower friction and so it can't friction weld together..
« Last Edit: March 16, 2014, 02:42:06 PM by ace.cafe »
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head . Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available .  AVL mods. Redditch 700/750 Twin mods. UCE kit soon.

Please visit my new website:
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High On Octane

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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #28 on: March 16, 2014, 02:48:31 PM »

........Also, if your clutch throw-out rod is segmented with a single ball bearing between the segments, like a Bullet, replace the steel ball bearing with a good quality ceramic ball bearing.  Lower friction and so it can't friction weld together..

Second part from the bottom of the list.    ;)
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ERC

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Re: My Quest To Hit the Ton
« Reply #29 on: March 16, 2014, 04:43:00 PM »
His clutch is a scissor clutch doesn't have the rod if I remember correctly.  ERC
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