HPRE

Menu

Members Rides

My bike


in
Members Rides

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
September 30, 2014, 10:03:37 PM

Login with username, password and session length

 

Author Topic: back brakes locking up again...  (Read 1769 times)

Sectorsteve

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 676
  • Karma: 0
back brakes locking up again...
« on: March 04, 2014, 05:21:16 AM »
Sorry to bother you but ive had the lock up again. i just cant seem to get this sorted. Everything is straight now, maybe the swing arm plate isnt exactly straight, but for the last 3 weeks its worked fine, then the tell tale is when i press the brake pedal then it goes soft, and then locks up.
This is driving me crazy! i just cant figure it out. stuffed bearings?, maybe the rubber bushes in wheel causing movement?
im almost tempted to get a GT rear wheel with disc brake!
I replaced the backing plate, all the cam pivots etc...every washer every nut in that brake assembly, new shoes etc...

JVS

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 943
  • Karma: 0
  • I love chicken
Re: back brakes locking up again...
« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2014, 09:28:02 AM »
 :(

Sorry to hear about this...

Is it possible for you to post a picture of the brake assembly from the outside, before you take it off? And then, also, please take a picture of the inside of the brake assembly, where we can see the brake shoes/cam. Just want to have a look..
Sons continuing wars, our fathers were enemies


High On Octane

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 3958
  • Karma: 0
  • Go Fast & Look Good Doing It
Re: back brakes locking up again...
« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2014, 01:20:40 PM »
I'm starting to think you might have something broken inside of that rear hub.  You clearly have a good idea of how to install things correctly (I mean you've been dealing with this for a couple months now) but yet, even after replacing parts, it still locks up.  ???   Something must be wrong or amiss with the actuating system of the rear brake.  From what your describing with it going completely soft then immediately locking up tells me that something is jumping out of place and then getting bound up.  Could be something stupid simple like a broken retainer clip somewhere.  If you don't have one already, find an exploded view pic of your rear wheel assembly (like from Hitchock's or a manual) and pay close attention to all the tiny clips and retainers.  Remove your rear wheel (again, I know) and carefully open up the hub and take a look before completely opening up to see if anything has fallen out of place.  Then make sure that all of the clips/retainers are accounted for and correctly installed.

Scottie J
Bulldog Kustoms - Denver, CO
Specializing In Kustom Paint

The Blackhawk
1958 Enfield/Indian 711cc Twin

Building The 1st Ever Ace Performance
Enfield Twin Full Race Heads

JVS

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 943
  • Karma: 0
  • I love chicken
Re: back brakes locking up again...
« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2014, 01:42:23 PM »
Yeah, also have a look at the following and check if everything was in correct order...when you take the wheel off. I'm sure you had everything alright...but you never know, something may be missing?  :-\ -

« Last Edit: March 04, 2014, 01:54:24 PM by JVS »
Sons continuing wars, our fathers were enemies


gashousegorilla

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 2745
  • Karma: 0
Re: back brakes locking up again...
« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2014, 04:06:53 PM »
 It almost sounds like his axle is loose....not tightened down. Or loosens over time. As he applies the brake, it goes soft as the wheel pulls forward and to the left ...giving him a soft pedal. Then it locks up because the linkage is bent and can't return ? ???    I don't know, just a thought .... sound possible Steve ?
An thaibhsí atá rattling ag an doras agus tá sé an diabhal sa chathaoir.

ace.cafe

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 8392
  • Karma: 0
  • World leaders in racing or performance Bullets
Re: back brakes locking up again...
« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2014, 04:13:36 PM »
It is likely that it is a problem related to the incident with the kangaroo that was previously not detected.
I think a thorough inspection of the whole rear hub and braking related parts is indicated.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2014, 04:17:55 PM by ace.cafe »
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head . Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available .  AVL mods. Redditch 700/750 Twin mods. UCE kit soon.

Please visit my new website:
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AcePerformanceBullets/info

gashousegorilla

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 2745
  • Karma: 0
Re: back brakes locking up again...
« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2014, 04:27:59 PM »
 Also, maybe another look at that swing arm.  Not just the end plates where the wheel mounts. But at those side tubes as well. Make sure one side is not bent up or down, in relation to the other.... 
An thaibhsí atá rattling ag an doras agus tá sé an diabhal sa chathaoir.

Sectorsteve

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 676
  • Karma: 0
Re: back brakes locking up again...
« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2014, 10:10:08 PM »
Thanks heaps guys. Yes Ace, im starting to think it could have something to do with the roo incident too...i phoned a few bike mechanics yesterday, but no one is willing to try fix it, just advice is all they can offer...
i have put on the new chain tensioners to replace the old cam adjusters.
Keep in mind that new brake pads , sprocket and chain were replaced before a 2000km trip in the Aussie alps, meaning heaps of braking with a massive load, probably about 400kg including 2 people and gear.
Im pretty sure ive not missed a single washer etc on the wheel assembly but ill double check with the break down diagram. THanks again JVS for that, saves me digging that up from the parts manual! i spose i should print it off and put it in a plastic folder as im no doubt going to need it again and again!
so im about to get in there again, but what am i going to do different this time?
not sure to be honest. ill grease stuff, clean stuff and check the wheel bearing this time and the spongy things (part 2) in the wheel. i think a few of them are stuffed. I just wanna try find anything causing movement.
The real problem for me with this , is ive lost confidence. im not riding properly and have been a little scared each time i hop on. i need good brakes to be able to ride well.
 

Ducati Scotty

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 6139
  • Karma: 0
  • 2010 Teal C5
Re: back brakes locking up again...
« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2014, 10:44:41 PM »
When the brake locks is the brake pedal stuck down?  I'm just trying to figure out if it's the actuating cam that gets stuck or if that is free to move but something else in the system is getting stuck.  I'm wondering if the cam is upside down too.

Scott

JVS

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 943
  • Karma: 0
  • I love chicken
Re: back brakes locking up again...
« Reply #9 on: March 05, 2014, 12:08:54 AM »
When the brake locks is the brake pedal stuck down?  I'm just trying to figure out if it's the actuating cam that gets stuck or if that is free to move but something else in the system is getting stuck.  I'm wondering if the cam is upside down too.

Scott

That's why I was asking for some pics. Maybe one of us will be able to spot something wrong in the assembly? No harm in checking it out =D
Sons continuing wars, our fathers were enemies


whoguy

  • Scooter
  • **
  • Posts: 71
  • Karma: 0
  • Hi... I love all things Beautiful...
Re: back brakes locking up again...
« Reply #10 on: March 05, 2014, 12:16:16 AM »
Gday Sectorsteve,

Get a white marker and put a line through the bolt and see whether it has undone itself. Also put a line across the bolt and swing arm plate to check if the bolt moves relative to the plate.

I find the slot should have been made much narrower in order to have more metal to grip onto. I was thinking of welding metal tabs so that it is impossible for the drum plate to rotate relative to the swing arm.

Alot of force is put onto the two bolts which form the pivoting point of the drum brakes... are these bolts bending all the time???  Did you get the silver bolt, not the black one??

Just my thoughts.
To ride or not to ride... That is the question!

Sectorsteve

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 676
  • Karma: 0
Re: back brakes locking up again...
« Reply #11 on: March 05, 2014, 12:42:52 AM »
its looking like the whole swing arm is bent, twisted somewhat. the wheels is sitting on a weird angle.
i agree with the slot hole being too big. i think my problem is something other though. ive bent heaps of these bolts since this prob started yes.

im gonna take some pix now and post them.

Sectorsteve

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 676
  • Karma: 0
Re: back brakes locking up again...
« Reply #12 on: March 20, 2014, 01:58:54 PM »
so it happened yet again so today tried something different.
on my kangaroo trip, my muffler nut and bolt came off my muffler and i replaced it in a country town with something else that held the muffler on tight but also obstructed the brake rod.
so today ive changed that and it seems good.
preetty boriiiing i know. for me this has been a trial and error and trouble shoot thing - for months now. im hoping this is it!

Ducati Scotty

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 6139
  • Karma: 0
  • 2010 Teal C5
Re: back brakes locking up again...
« Reply #13 on: March 20, 2014, 02:00:14 PM »
9th time is the charm?  Good luck Steve.

Sectorsteve

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 676
  • Karma: 0
Re: back brakes locking up again...
« Reply #14 on: March 20, 2014, 03:54:22 PM »
we"ll see Scotty. but it makes sense. the brake rod was kinda levering on this bolt. i didnt realise. i dont have the highest IQ... thank you for all your input

Ducati Scotty

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 6139
  • Karma: 0
  • 2010 Teal C5
Re: back brakes locking up again...
« Reply #15 on: March 20, 2014, 04:23:14 PM »
All the other stuff, the roo hit, the damage to the backing plate, could have contributed but when you took it apart and found the swingarm was straight it seemed less likely.  You had the hub apart multiple times.  If that was it I think you'd have seen it one of those times.  This sounds like a more likely option.  I really hope this solves it all.

Scott

suitcasejefferson

  • Grease Monkey
  • ****
  • Posts: 424
  • Karma: 0
Re: back brakes locking up again...
« Reply #16 on: March 21, 2014, 12:31:25 AM »
I have seen this happen on both disc and drum brakes. The pads/shoes don't bite at first, then they lock up. Something is causing the friction level between the pads/shoes and disc/drum to change during brake application. I have no idea whether this has anything to do with your problem or not.

Something else I haven't seen mentioned. Is the brake drum completely round? And does the radius of the shoes match the radius of the drum? Some weird things can happen if the drum is out of round, or if the shoes are only touching the drum at the center or just the ends of the shoes. This is one of the issues I have always disliked about drum brakes. It can be almost impossible to get a perfect match between the shoes and drum.
I am a motorcyclist, NOT a biker.
2013 Royal Enfield B5
2002 Kawasaki Vulcan 750
2001 Yamaha XT225
2012 Yamaha Zuma 125
2009 Genuine Stella 2 stroke
1980 Puch Maxi ZA50 2 speed
1971 VeloSolex S3800

Sectorsteve

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 676
  • Karma: 0
Re: back brakes locking up again...
« Reply #17 on: March 21, 2014, 10:29:04 PM »
its still happening....im thinking my only option is to renew the whole ******* back end...

gashousegorilla

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 2745
  • Karma: 0
Re: back brakes locking up again...
« Reply #18 on: March 21, 2014, 10:59:21 PM »
 Steve..... Steve o'........ Dude !  :o  ;)   How are you unlocking the brake when it happens ?   After it happens...... HOW does the rear wheel and brake assembly look ?   Does it still look like the alignment is good and how you left it ?  Or does it look screwed up afterwords ?
An thaibhsí atá rattling ag an doras agus tá sé an diabhal sa chathaoir.

Sectorsteve

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 676
  • Karma: 0
Re: back brakes locking up again...
« Reply #19 on: March 23, 2014, 03:50:54 AM »
everything is looking sweet and aligned. i have to undo the brake nut on the rod a little to free the wheel afterwards. ive been too scared to really hit the back brake hard for fear of bending everything. so when these little lock ups happen they are little ones. the next thing to check is the pedal end. its a bit loose up there, but honestly i cant really see how that would cause it.

Arizoni

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 4381
  • Karma: 0
  • "But it's a dry heat here in Arizona
Re: back brakes locking up again...
« Reply #20 on: March 23, 2014, 04:37:14 AM »
Hmmmmm.

Loosening the brake adjustment allows it to unlock?

Is it possible you have the adjustment set too tight?
Personally, I like my rear brake to start to work with about 3/4 of an inch of pedal travel but when I first got it the dealer had adjusted it so it didn't do much unless I moved the pedal at least 1 1/2 inches.

With this in mind, how far do you have to move the rear brake pedal to get it to start to get hard to push?
Jim
2011 G5 Deluxe
1999 Miata 10th Anniversary

GreenMachine

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 3038
  • Karma: 0
Re: back brakes locking up again...
« Reply #21 on: March 23, 2014, 03:01:19 PM »
With the bike up on the center stand, does the rear drum brakes lock up with just spinning the tire and depressing by hand the pedal vice taking it down the road ?
Oh Magoo you done it again

gashousegorilla

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 2745
  • Karma: 0
Re: back brakes locking up again...
« Reply #22 on: March 23, 2014, 03:59:30 PM »
everything is looking sweet and aligned. i have to undo the brake nut on the rod a little to free the wheel afterwards. ive been too scared to really hit the back brake hard for fear of bending everything. so when these little lock ups happen they are little ones. the next thing to check is the pedal end. its a bit loose up there, but honestly i cant really see how that would cause it.



  Not to state the obvious...... but that spring should have no problem pulling that rod back  when you release the pedal. There is a lot of tension in that spring, or should be. By loosening the nut, your making it easier for that spring to pull the rod back.  Sounds like something may be binding and or bent,  from that spring/ arm, through the rod to the pedal.  I no longer have the stock set up, so I can't look. But is it possible that the pedal travel  adjustment is sooo loose, that you are getting it into a position... down so far. That the rod winds up straight, binds and can't return?
An thaibhsí atá rattling ag an doras agus tá sé an diabhal sa chathaoir.

High On Octane

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 3958
  • Karma: 0
  • Go Fast & Look Good Doing It
Re: back brakes locking up again...
« Reply #23 on: March 23, 2014, 04:04:10 PM »


  Not to state the obvious...... but that spring should have no problem pulling that rod back  when you release the pedal. There is a lot of tension in that spring, or should be. By loosening the nut, your making it easier for that spring to pull the rod back.  Sounds like something may be binding and or bent,  from that spring/ arm, through the rod to the pedal.  I no longer have the stock set up, so I can't look. But is it possible that the pedal travel  adjustment is sooo loose, that you are getting it into a position... down so far. That the rod winds up straight, binds and can't return?

+1

How far do you have to push the pedal down for the brake to engage?
Bulldog Kustoms - Denver, CO
Specializing In Kustom Paint

The Blackhawk
1958 Enfield/Indian 711cc Twin

Building The 1st Ever Ace Performance
Enfield Twin Full Race Heads

suitcasejefferson

  • Grease Monkey
  • ****
  • Posts: 424
  • Karma: 0
Re: back brakes locking up again...
« Reply #24 on: March 23, 2014, 04:28:09 PM »
I always adjust rear drums by putting the bike on the centerstand, and spinning the rear wheel, while slowly tightening the adjusting nut, until I feel slight resistance, then I back off just enough that the resistance is gone. I like as little play in the rear brake pedal as possible.

I would check that spring, and the whole linkage for something that is binding. It may not be in the actual brake at all.
I am a motorcyclist, NOT a biker.
2013 Royal Enfield B5
2002 Kawasaki Vulcan 750
2001 Yamaha XT225
2012 Yamaha Zuma 125
2009 Genuine Stella 2 stroke
1980 Puch Maxi ZA50 2 speed
1971 VeloSolex S3800

gashousegorilla

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 2745
  • Karma: 0
Re: back brakes locking up again...
« Reply #25 on: March 23, 2014, 05:20:29 PM »
I always adjust rear drums by putting the bike on the centerstand, and spinning the rear wheel, while slowly tightening the adjusting nut, until I feel slight resistance, then I back off just enough that the resistance is gone. I like as little play in the rear brake pedal as possible.

I would check that spring, and the whole linkage for something that is binding. It may not be in the actual brake at all.

  +1   They're  COULD or SHOULD also be a pedal stop screw to adjust pedal height. I would imagine, if it is set where the pedal is TOOOO far down..... Then the rod is adjusted, the rod may bind.
An thaibhsí atá rattling ag an doras agus tá sé an diabhal sa chathaoir.

suitcasejefferson

  • Grease Monkey
  • ****
  • Posts: 424
  • Karma: 0
Re: back brakes locking up again...
« Reply #26 on: March 23, 2014, 07:15:48 PM »
My 2013 does have the pedal stop screw. The spring is also pretty strong. I loosened the brake rod adjustment nut so there was too much play, pushed the pedal down all the way, released it, and it immediately snapped back against the stop screw. Readjusted it correctly.
I am a motorcyclist, NOT a biker.
2013 Royal Enfield B5
2002 Kawasaki Vulcan 750
2001 Yamaha XT225
2012 Yamaha Zuma 125
2009 Genuine Stella 2 stroke
1980 Puch Maxi ZA50 2 speed
1971 VeloSolex S3800

gashousegorilla

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 2745
  • Karma: 0
Re: back brakes locking up again...
« Reply #27 on: March 23, 2014, 08:01:48 PM »
 Good test !...... Damn, if doesn't sound like that spring is not hooked in on one side and un- tensioned too. 
An thaibhsí atá rattling ag an doras agus tá sé an diabhal sa chathaoir.

Sectorsteve

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 676
  • Karma: 0
Re: back brakes locking up again...
« Reply #28 on: March 23, 2014, 10:55:42 PM »
I'm tightening the nut tight until the wheel is locked up then I back off til the wheel turns freely.

The spring , shoes, & all brake components are new, however the new cam bolt thread is much shorter and cross threaded that opens the shoes. I need to re thread that bolt. In the meantime of lock tited it and its set but not ideal.
I must say some of the items I've been buying from hitchcocks have been substandard. I replaced many nuts in bolts etc that were pretty rubbish. Washers bending easy , the replacement cam bolts and nuts are soft and a horn I bought from them didn't work.
I'm going to focus on minimising movement down near brake pedal and also the brake arm.


Hmmmmm.

Loosening the brake adjustment allows it to unlock?

Is it possible you have the adjustment set too tight?
Personally, I like my rear brake to start to work with about 3/4 of an inch of pedal travel but when I first got it the dealer had adjusted it so it didn't do much unless I moved the pedal at least 1 1/2 inches.

With this in mind, how far do you have to move the rear brake pedal to get it to start to get hard to push?
[/quote]

GreenMachine

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 3038
  • Karma: 0
Re: back brakes locking up again...
« Reply #29 on: March 24, 2014, 02:39:55 PM »
I find adjusting the rear brakes on the center stand is a "get you in the ball park" setup ..Afterwards ,  I go for a scoot around the block and take a small wrench with me to re- adjust the play and feel of the rear  brake function...It should require just a nominal bit of pedal play vice having to mash down to effectively stop the bike at a moderate rate of speed...

When you start talking about cross threaded pieces in a braking mechanism, you're going to have problems...The drum brake system on the enfield is simplistic but requires all the pieces to be aligned and matched to properly activate in a correct manner....Sorry about the substandard parts but it would be best if you could replace any piece that is suspect concerning the drum brake...You'll fix it sooner than later and find it was a inexpensive fix or operator error. The bottom line is that safety comes first and braking is your first line of defense..... GM
Oh Magoo you done it again

whoguy

  • Scooter
  • **
  • Posts: 71
  • Karma: 0
  • Hi... I love all things Beautiful...
Re: back brakes locking up again...
« Reply #30 on: March 24, 2014, 09:42:19 PM »
Hey Steve,

I personally think it's the washer and nut not being able to hold firmly onto the swing arm plate which allows it to move. On my swing arm, the bolt is 10.8mm and the slot is about 13mm, which allows about 2.2 mm of movement if the nut is unable to hold the drum assembly.

If you can find some 2mm metal the same thickness as the swing arm plate and jam it above the bolt, then tighten the nut and washer on top of it all, it should stop the drum assembly rotating up or down. Be careful not to strip any thread when jamming the metal in there, and make sure you centre the drum brake by pressing the rear brake while you tighten the nut.

If this doesn't do it, I think the swing arm slot has become too wide after being deformed, and there is simply not enough metal for the washer and nut to grip onto... so you need to get a new swing arm, or weld metal to the slot to make it narrower.

Hope that helps SectorSteve
To ride or not to ride... That is the question!

Arizoni

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 4381
  • Karma: 0
  • "But it's a dry heat here in Arizona
Re: back brakes locking up again...
« Reply #31 on: March 25, 2014, 12:42:36 AM »
To keep that 2.2mm clearance from causing problems, rotate the brake backing plate (along with the threaded stud that goes thru the slot) clockwise until the stud stops the plate from rotating further.  Then, with the studs washer in place, tighten both the large nut on the axle and the smaller nut on the thru stud.

By doing this, even if the stud's nut doesn't tighten up enough to keep the stud from moving during braking, the stud is already pre-loaded against a fixed stop.  The backing plate cannot rotate further.

If the stud was centered in the slot or if the backing plate was rotated counter-clockwise before tightening the stud's nut, if it ever did move and the backing plate rotated clockwise during braking this would tighten the brake arm.
With the brake arm tightened, it would be the same as stomping on the brake pedal and the rear brake would lock up.
Jim
2011 G5 Deluxe
1999 Miata 10th Anniversary

Sectorsteve

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 676
  • Karma: 0
Re: back brakes locking up again...
« Reply #32 on: March 25, 2014, 12:51:24 AM »
The whole brake plate cannot move as I've secured it.  it isn't this.

Sectorsteve

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 676
  • Karma: 0
Re: back brakes locking up again...
« Reply #33 on: March 25, 2014, 08:44:03 PM »
yawwwwnnnnn. well its another morning and one where im gonna give it another try. last night whilst out to get some fish n chips i applied the brake ever so slightly, got a nice big lock up and skid that involved quite a few anti clockwises of the brake nut...
SO> im gonna take the brake rod off and bash that thing straight as its pretty bent. Im also gonna sort the pedal end out so its not moving about side to side. Its gotta be this. Inside the hub, the brake arm etc and everything down the wheel end is fine. its def operator error , just tryna find where. this has only been going on 3 months!

Ducati Scotty

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 6139
  • Karma: 0
  • 2010 Teal C5
Re: back brakes locking up again...
« Reply #34 on: March 25, 2014, 09:03:44 PM »
The post that the foot brake lever mounts to/pivots on, that should be pointing straight out.  If it's not 90 degrees to the line of the bike you may want to look into getting it that way.

Scott

Sectorsteve

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 676
  • Karma: 0
Re: back brakes locking up again...
« Reply #35 on: March 25, 2014, 11:04:21 PM »
the pedal end is fine. ripped that off, cleaned greased put back on.
straightened rod.
from hitchcocks, i bought brake plate, cam bolts, spring, for the rear brake.
These bits are slightly different to the originals and i think this is where my problem is.
the new brake plate doesnt have a second tiny bolt for the new spring. the new spring has only 1 loop in it to attach to the new brake plate. seems like they are made for each other and that is cool, but this means there is less support and when the brake is applied, the whole lever is kinda moving away from the bike, rather than just vertically towards the front of bike when you depress the pedal. Also the new pivot cam(that separates the shoes) is really short so you can only put the 1 nut on there. The old system had a longer bolt and you could have the brake shoe measurement gizmo plus a second nut.
Basically (i believe) this new system is flawed. without being able to to properly secure the spring to the brakeplate and the brake lever to the brake plate you have this perpendicular movement. Now i think i can get around the short pivot bolt, but im not so sure with the spring. I think that spring needs to be flush and secured in 2 places to the brake plate.


Sectorsteve

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 676
  • Karma: 0
Re: back brakes locking up again...
« Reply #36 on: March 25, 2014, 11:17:47 PM »
i think thats it...



  Not to state the obvious...... but that spring should have no problem pulling that rod back  when you release the pedal. There is a lot of tension in that spring, or should be. By loosening the nut, your making it easier for that spring to pull the rod back.  Sounds like something may be binding and or bent,  from that spring/ arm, through the rod to the pedal.  I no longer have the stock set up, so I can't look. But is it possible that the pedal travel  adjustment is sooo loose, that you are getting it into a position... down so far. That the rod winds up straight, binds and can't return?

gashousegorilla

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 2745
  • Karma: 0
Re: back brakes locking up again...
« Reply #37 on: March 26, 2014, 12:11:53 AM »
i think thats it...


  IF the spring is not secured at both ends, at the arm and at the screw.... no tension.  You would hit the brake and it would probably stay there, a bent rod could make it even harder for it to return .
An thaibhsí atá rattling ag an doras agus tá sé an diabhal sa chathaoir.

whoguy

  • Scooter
  • **
  • Posts: 71
  • Karma: 0
  • Hi... I love all things Beautiful...
Re: back brakes locking up again...
« Reply #38 on: March 26, 2014, 01:38:58 AM »
Hey Steve,

One question I forgot to ask you... when your rear brake locks up, how do you release it?

Mine was impossible to release, so I had to resort to undoing the adjustment nut at the end of the rod.... did you have to do the same?
To ride or not to ride... That is the question!

Sectorsteve

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 676
  • Karma: 0
Re: back brakes locking up again...
« Reply #39 on: March 26, 2014, 01:43:13 AM »
yes Brian i have to release the tension nut.

i just tried to find a tap and die so i can rethread the bolt. the bolt i got from hitchcocks - cam bolt is really crap. its like putty. the metal just shaves off it and its not even long enough to cover the width of one nut.
i will try and find another. no doubt be another waste of time and waste of money.
ive written to hitchcocks about all their crap they sent me recently that bent, warped, folded, didnt work, and wasnt as advertised. i understand its all from india - but still. ffs get it together a holes. one of the reasons this is taking so long is because of the time it takes to get crap from them. pretty annoying when its substandard as well...
« Last Edit: March 26, 2014, 01:54:18 AM by Sectorsteve »

whoguy

  • Scooter
  • **
  • Posts: 71
  • Karma: 0
  • Hi... I love all things Beautiful...
Re: back brakes locking up again...
« Reply #40 on: March 27, 2014, 03:35:46 AM »
Hmmm... sounds like something is definately moving, whether it be the cam bolt or something else. Might try to get it from Graham instead, might be a little pricier, but it'll be quicker... he might be able to get you the part that won't cause problems too.

I don't know why your cam bolt is short??? ... If you get it apart, might be worthwhile taking pics of the two bolts side by side.
To ride or not to ride... That is the question!

Sectorsteve

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 676
  • Karma: 0
Re: back brakes locking up again...
« Reply #41 on: March 27, 2014, 05:33:29 AM »
so i just spent another 3 hours on it. a waste of time again im sure. the cam bolt thread is absolutely rooted - not to mention way too short. You cant even get the nut all the way on. the nut wil go on just over halfway. Not enough purchase. this mechanism needs more than that. the original bolt you could get 2 nuts plus the measurement gizmo.
the brake arm moves perpendicular at the pivot point which i think is the cause of the problems. The spring is also not right but i could possibly live with that spring if i have the longer bolt. Brian i dont have the other bolt anymore. it was so bent that i chucked it thinking i was in the clear. boy was i wrong. i wish i had of kept it as i would have tried to bend it back to shape.

GreenMachine

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 3038
  • Karma: 0
Re: back brakes locking up again...
« Reply #42 on: March 27, 2014, 01:25:00 PM »
I was looking at my Bullet spare parts catalogue and it appears that the rear drum brake parts for the 350 up to the the 500 model 65 all use the same parts for the rear brake assembly...Does the UCE follow the same convention? ....Is it possible that they are sending you  a "rear hub spindle" that is f/u/w the older models vice what you need ....2 bad u threw away the old one as it would had been good to compare.....I wouldn't be surprise if the UCE uses a slightly different size one...With the nuts and washers removed, the Hub spindle bolt should just require a bit of knocking out to get the bolt out the other side whereas you can just grab it and pull it out (shouldn't be rooted) ...Mine just fell out the other end and the spacers fell on the ground..Luckily I had a pic and parts manual to show how they were assembled...
Oh Magoo you done it again

singhg5

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 2228
  • Karma: 0
Re: back brakes locking up again...
« Reply #43 on: March 27, 2014, 04:09:17 PM »
so i just spent another 3 hours on it. a waste of time again im sure. the cam bolt thread is absolutely rooted - not to mention way too short. You cant even get the nut all the way on. the nut wil go on just over halfway. Not enough purchase. this mechanism needs more than that. the original bolt you could get 2 nuts plus the measurement gizmo.
..

Yes, it is too small as compared to what is on G5. I think you will need new set of correct size and specs.
1970's Jawa /  Yezdi
2006 Honda Nighthawk
2009 Royal Enfield Black G5

Professor

  • Scooter
  • **
  • Posts: 93
  • Karma: 0
Re: back brakes locking up again...
« Reply #44 on: March 27, 2014, 04:28:58 PM »
If nothing works. it may be your brake drum is out of round. Go to the Race Tech Suspension Website. They have a brake service that trues the drum and matches the brake shoe to the drum. It works. My Triumph was fixed permanently. You must remove the rear tire from the bike and the tire.

Professor

  • Scooter
  • **
  • Posts: 93
  • Karma: 0
Re: back brakes locking up again...
« Reply #45 on: March 27, 2014, 05:00:37 PM »
Go to Race Tech Suspension. Click on Vintage Bikes. Go down to Brake Arcing. Click on more information and you'll see how they do it.

Ducati Scotty

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 6139
  • Karma: 0
  • 2010 Teal C5
Re: back brakes locking up again...
« Reply #46 on: March 27, 2014, 05:10:24 PM »
You won't need to remove the tire, for an Enfield you can just send the drum/sprocket ;)

You can have any machine shop check that the drum is round and centered to the bearing.  You can arc shoes to the drum yourself.  You can looki it up but here is the basic procedure:
1) Remove the drum.
2) Put chalk on the shoes, all over them.
3) Seat the brakes in the drum and pull the brake lever, rotate the brakes a little in the drum.
4) Remove the brake mechanism.  Anywhere you see the chalk rubbed off is a high spot.  Use a sanding block and medium sand paper to sand that spot down.
5) Repeat steps 2 through 4 until the brake comes out with no chalk.  That means the entire shoe is making contact.

This procedure gets the whole shoe hitting the drum for optimal contact.  They do some more work at the shop, like cutting grooves to improve performance, but this alone will make your brakes very good.

All that said, I think you have the wrong cam bolt.  Call or e-mail Hitchcocks and askDo you have someone local with an RE that you could compare to?  Maybe just take it to the shop and compare to a new one?

Scott

Professor

  • Scooter
  • **
  • Posts: 93
  • Karma: 0
Re: back brakes locking up again...
« Reply #47 on: March 27, 2014, 05:14:00 PM »
If you do it with just the drum and sprocket, then lace the wheel, would lacing pull the drum out of round?

Ducati Scotty

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 6139
  • Karma: 0
  • 2010 Teal C5
Re: back brakes locking up again...
« Reply #48 on: March 27, 2014, 05:17:24 PM »
On this bike, not at all.  The drum is not connected to the spokes.  On any other bike, maybe a little.  It would make sense to do it with the wheel already laced.  I suspect they do it with a lace wheel more because people don't want to unlace a wheel to have it done rather than the spokes affecting roundness of the drum.

Scott

Professor

  • Scooter
  • **
  • Posts: 93
  • Karma: 0
Re: back brakes locking up again...
« Reply #49 on: March 27, 2014, 05:25:23 PM »
Got it.

GreenMachine

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 3038
  • Karma: 0
Re: back brakes locking up again...
« Reply #50 on: March 27, 2014, 07:19:37 PM »
Singh5:  I don't have a UCE parts manual to compare the actual part list to see if G5/C5 uses the same parts for their rear drum brake assembly as the older machines...That being said, the parts that Sectorsteve purchased should had come with a part number listed on the bag and could be verified by anyone that has the newer complete parts list... I just as confused and would like to help him but we have to know if he's has the right parts....

Oh Magoo you done it again

Sectorsteve

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 676
  • Karma: 0
Re: back brakes locking up again...
« Reply #51 on: March 27, 2014, 10:37:04 PM »
thanks heaps guys for your input.
im pretty sure the drum is ok, because thats a sprocket i put on in november and it was sweet til january.
Ive nutted it down to 2 things : firstly im a retard and had the brake arm on backwards.(instead of the pull hole for brake rod on inside i had it on outside) This is a major thing because everytime i applied the brake it pulled the brake arm across a little.
secondly that new cam bolt just isnt long enough to get good purchase however ive checked it now after working on it yesterday. i stuck so much loctite on it and its solid and the arm is moving in a straight line and not perpendicular anymore. this isnt ideal though and i know that loctite will brake its seal and the brake arm will move side to side again. hopefully hitchcocks will send me the right bit soon.

Arizoni

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 4381
  • Karma: 0
  • "But it's a dry heat here in Arizona
Re: back brakes locking up again...
« Reply #52 on: March 27, 2014, 10:41:34 PM »
All of the parts and the part numbers for the rear brake assembly are exactly the same for both the C5 and the G5

The Operating Cam part number is 580363.

The Shoe Pin part number is 580362.  This is the part that the lower part of the shoes pivot on and its m12 X 1.25 threaded end extends outward from the backing plate and passes thru the elongated hole in the swing arm.

The "Bushing" that guides the Operating Cam is part number 145088.

I'm guessing but the Bushing part number looks like a old one.  That tells me the 500xxx series numbers are probably newly designed for the UCE motorcycles and the old parts might not fit/work correctly.
Jim
2011 G5 Deluxe
1999 Miata 10th Anniversary

Sectorsteve

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 676
  • Karma: 0
Re: back brakes locking up again...
« Reply #53 on: March 27, 2014, 10:48:59 PM »
actually looking at Singhs picture there of his brake arm and he has it the way round i had it...
must be the dodgy bushing bolt length. i need length...!

Arizoni

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 4381
  • Karma: 0
  • "But it's a dry heat here in Arizona
Re: back brakes locking up again...
« Reply #54 on: March 27, 2014, 11:08:35 PM »
Hoping it helps, here is a picture of my rear brake on my 2011 G5.

Looking at it I notice it has two nuts holding on the arm and the brake wear indicator pointer.
There is no way that setup could be used with the length of the threaded part of your brake cam and I notice that the Parts Manual only lists one nut in that area.
Maybe the G5 is using a different part number cam?

Anyway, hope this helps you.
Jim
2011 G5 Deluxe
1999 Miata 10th Anniversary

Sectorsteve

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 676
  • Karma: 0
Re: back brakes locking up again...
« Reply #55 on: March 27, 2014, 11:33:31 PM »
Thanks arizoni. Mines a c5 and the old bolt had 2 nuts. Hitchcocks sent me a shorter cam bolt. Barely houses 1 nut.

Ducati Scotty

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 6139
  • Karma: 0
  • 2010 Teal C5
Re: back brakes locking up again...
« Reply #56 on: March 27, 2014, 11:37:33 PM »
In addition to holding the little indicator arrow, don't those two nuts lock each othe in place?

Scott

Sectorsteve

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 676
  • Karma: 0
Re: back brakes locking up again...
« Reply #57 on: March 28, 2014, 12:45:12 AM »
Yeah mate. Its a pretty important thing. You need that extra nut

suitcasejefferson

  • Grease Monkey
  • ****
  • Posts: 424
  • Karma: 0
Re: back brakes locking up again...
« Reply #58 on: April 02, 2014, 06:13:30 AM »
The rear brake has been really mushy on my 2013 B5 since I bought it. I don't consider it a safety issue, but it still feels like something is not right. Then I saw this on Youtube  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHRm_t_8DYE  I noticed you had commented on it. I don't feel what that guy did was safe (how can you leave the nuts/bolts slightly loose and not have them come apart?) but I do see his point. I think I have the same problem, with only one shoe making good contact. I understand theren used to be a procedure in the manual where you centered the brakes by loosening these 2 bolts, spun the rear wheel, locked up the rear brake, and tightened the bolts. Opinions?
I am a motorcyclist, NOT a biker.
2013 Royal Enfield B5
2002 Kawasaki Vulcan 750
2001 Yamaha XT225
2012 Yamaha Zuma 125
2009 Genuine Stella 2 stroke
1980 Puch Maxi ZA50 2 speed
1971 VeloSolex S3800

Arizoni

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 4381
  • Karma: 0
  • "But it's a dry heat here in Arizona
Re: back brakes locking up again...
« Reply #59 on: April 03, 2014, 01:19:00 AM »
I wish that damn Youtube video would be removed.

It's suggesting things that could be downright dangerous and it seems every month or so someone asks about it here on the forum.

The generally accepted thought of all of us is don't do it.
Jim
2011 G5 Deluxe
1999 Miata 10th Anniversary

GSS

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 738
  • Karma: 0
Re: back brakes locking up again...
« Reply #60 on: April 03, 2014, 01:34:14 AM »
+1. Follow the instructions in the service manual.....this video is scary.
2014 GT - Red
2010 C5 - Teal
It's a Jeep thing......

High On Octane

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 3958
  • Karma: 0
  • Go Fast & Look Good Doing It
Re: back brakes locking up again...
« Reply #61 on: April 03, 2014, 03:05:57 AM »
+2  I agree.

Perhaps we could make a group effort and reply to the video informing others to NOT do this.  That way when someone new views the video they will see the multiple replies saying this is a bad idea and give it a second thought before doing it.  Just an idea.

I often wonder how many miles he rode before he tried coming to stop and realized his brakes fell apart.   

Scottie J
« Last Edit: April 03, 2014, 03:10:23 AM by High On Octane »
Bulldog Kustoms - Denver, CO
Specializing In Kustom Paint

The Blackhawk
1958 Enfield/Indian 711cc Twin

Building The 1st Ever Ace Performance
Enfield Twin Full Race Heads

JVS

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 943
  • Karma: 0
  • I love chicken
Re: back brakes locking up again...
« Reply #62 on: April 03, 2014, 06:32:53 AM »


Perhaps we could make a group effort and reply to the video informing others to NOT do this.  That way when someone new views the video they will see the multiple replies saying this is a bad idea and give it a second thought before doing it.  Just an idea.



I've posted comments on the video informing others why they shouldn't do that, along with links to this forum; only for the said comments to be deleted by the uploader.
Sons continuing wars, our fathers were enemies


suitcasejefferson

  • Grease Monkey
  • ****
  • Posts: 424
  • Karma: 0
Re: back brakes locking up again...
« Reply #63 on: April 03, 2014, 09:33:03 AM »
It was obvious the way he did it in the video is NOT the right way to do it. But the right way still seemed to require moving the pivot bushing, something I've never seen on a Japanese bike. They have a different setup though, where the brake assembly comes off with the wheel, and usually a torque rod going from the brake backing plate to the swingarm.

I don't have a service manual yet, but I found this. I'm assuming this is the way it should be done.  http://www.enfieldmotorcycles.com/forum/index.php/topic,12728.15.html


Yesterday I posted a comment on Youtube saying how that didn't sound like such a good idea, and that I thought the bolts should be tight. I noticed the poster of the video replied and seem to agree
« Last Edit: April 03, 2014, 09:39:49 AM by suitcasejefferson »
I am a motorcyclist, NOT a biker.
2013 Royal Enfield B5
2002 Kawasaki Vulcan 750
2001 Yamaha XT225
2012 Yamaha Zuma 125
2009 Genuine Stella 2 stroke
1980 Puch Maxi ZA50 2 speed
1971 VeloSolex S3800

mattsz

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 2537
  • Karma: 0
  • moto-gurdyist
Re: back brakes locking up again...
« Reply #64 on: April 03, 2014, 10:54:01 AM »
Suitcase - I followed the advice I found on this forum regarding rear brake adjustment; many different contributors, all saying more or less the same thing, similar to this (from that other thread about that video):

...when assembling the rear brake there is the point when you should step on the lever with loose nuts at the brake cam bushing in order to allow the cams to center themselves. But afterwards it´s done and you must fasten the nuts then. The cams are not designed to center themselves on every single braking...

My rear brakes felt mushy, too, before I took that adjustment step, and now they're much improved... not rock-hard, of course, but I can lock my rear wheel on clean dry pavement at 25 mph if I want to (I know, 'cause I tried it!).

Sectorsteve

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 676
  • Karma: 0
Re: back brakes locking up again...
« Reply #65 on: April 11, 2014, 12:25:53 AM »
related but kinda not to the thread...
the other day in the wet i had to apply front brake(as i still have no rear) suddenly to avoid a cat. i like cats...anyway, i slid out. very minor scratches etc, hardly anything actually, however when i picked the bike up and rode home the steering was outta whack. cant really see what it is. i thought maybe like some bikes the steering may have moved, but i cant see how it can. i pulled the bars off and repositioned them between 2 punch hole marks and things seem to be better, but when i jump on, something now on the front end appears bent.
It was just a matter of time. This rear brake thing has gone on way too long. still waiting for parts from hitchcocks from weeks ago.
i find it really hard to get things straight on bikes as they should be...

suitcasejefferson

  • Grease Monkey
  • ****
  • Posts: 424
  • Karma: 0
Re: back brakes locking up again...
« Reply #66 on: April 11, 2014, 12:55:31 AM »
Well I finally did find out one thing. My drum is out of round.I put it on the centerstand, and kept spinning the wheel by hand, while tightening the adjuster nut til I could hear it rubbing, but it didn't rub all the way around, more like half of a turn, then no rubbing. Even if the shoes are not centered, the only thing that can cause that is an out of round drum.
I am a motorcyclist, NOT a biker.
2013 Royal Enfield B5
2002 Kawasaki Vulcan 750
2001 Yamaha XT225
2012 Yamaha Zuma 125
2009 Genuine Stella 2 stroke
1980 Puch Maxi ZA50 2 speed
1971 VeloSolex S3800

Sectorsteve

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 676
  • Karma: 0
Re: back brakes locking up again...
« Reply #67 on: April 11, 2014, 01:52:13 AM »
so what would that mean if it isnt perfectly round? how can they stuff up circle?

JVS

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 943
  • Karma: 0
  • I love chicken
Re: back brakes locking up again...
« Reply #68 on: April 11, 2014, 02:00:11 AM »
Well I finally did find out one thing. My drum is out of round.I put it on the centerstand, and kept spinning the wheel by hand, while tightening the adjuster nut til I could hear it rubbing, but it didn't rub all the way around, more like half of a turn, then no rubbing. Even if the shoes are not centered, the only thing that can cause that is an out of round drum.

I think you need to center the shoes properly, if you haven't done so already.
Sons continuing wars, our fathers were enemies


Ducati Scotty

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 6139
  • Karma: 0
  • 2010 Teal C5
Re: back brakes locking up again...
« Reply #69 on: April 11, 2014, 03:08:13 AM »
My mechanic has seen one if these.  Not necessarily out of round but the brake surface and bearing seat are not on the same center.  No way it can ever work. 

On the front end, loosen the lower triple bolts and the axle bolts.  Loosen the steering tube clamp bolts on the upper nacelle.  Wedge the front wheel against the wall and twist back and forth.  Get things centered and tighten things up again.  There may not be anything bent, just twisted out of alignment.

Scott
« Last Edit: April 11, 2014, 02:01:47 PM by Ducati Scotty »

Arizoni

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 4381
  • Karma: 0
  • "But it's a dry heat here in Arizona
Re: back brakes locking up again...
« Reply #70 on: April 11, 2014, 05:37:24 AM »
Ah yes.  The old twister fix. :)

Before doing this, it's a good idea to study the situation a bit.
Often, when a bike goes down, the handlebars are the first thing to hit the road. 
When they hit they try to jerk the front fork towards the grip that hit the ground but then the side of the front tire hits the road and stops the forks from turning further.
That ends up causing the front forks/wheel to be pointing away from the grip that contacted the tarmac.
(If the right grip hit the tarmac, the front wheel/forks will  be pointed a bit to the left).
Jim
2011 G5 Deluxe
1999 Miata 10th Anniversary

GreenMachine

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 3038
  • Karma: 0
Re: back brakes locking up again...
« Reply #71 on: April 11, 2014, 05:11:10 PM »
Ah yes.  The old twister fix. :)

Use to do that on my 10 speed Huffy.....

Sectorsteve:  Shops use to have a arc machine to mate brakes to the curvature of the drum interior lining...I haven't seen one in years..Some people take a file or sander (wear a mask) to them especially if it's a new setup....If they are setup correctly, you'll be surprise of the bite that they provide vice slapping them and calling it a day...Still hard to believe that they're so misaligned that when they bite they lock up but anything is possible on a Enfield   ;D..It's just another thing that need to be looked at in your attempt to get the rears working correctly...Don't give up and be satisfied with just your front brake.  The fix is right in front of you..GM
Oh Magoo you done it again

suitcasejefferson

  • Grease Monkey
  • ****
  • Posts: 424
  • Karma: 0
Re: back brakes locking up again...
« Reply #72 on: April 11, 2014, 05:26:05 PM »
My mechanic has seen one if these.  Not necessarily out of round but the brake surface and bearing seat are not on the same center.  No way it can ever work. 

On the front end, loosen the lower triple bolts and the axle bolts.  Loosen the steering tube clamp bolts on the upper nacelle.  Wedge the front wheel against the wall and twist back and forth.  Get things centered and tighten things up again.  There may not be anything bent, just twisted out of alignment.

Scott

This is on the rear brake. Whether the hub is out of round, or as you said, the brake surface is not lined up with the bearing, fixing it means a new hub. I haven't had time to take it apart yet and check it out, but unless the brake shoes are moving as the wheel turns, it just about has to be the hub.
I am a motorcyclist, NOT a biker.
2013 Royal Enfield B5
2002 Kawasaki Vulcan 750
2001 Yamaha XT225
2012 Yamaha Zuma 125
2009 Genuine Stella 2 stroke
1980 Puch Maxi ZA50 2 speed
1971 VeloSolex S3800