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Author Topic: starting problem. fuel pump not priming - starter not spinning  (Read 744 times)

screamin lord sutch

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Hello all, this is my first post after lurking a while.

I recently did some repairs to my buddy's 2011 C5 bullet. It has no kickstart but I don't know if that was even an option for 2011.
I removed the right engine cover and replaced the gasket, removed the exhaust, rear fender and wheel, and installed LEDs in the gauge cluster.
Today I reinstalled everything except the exhaust and I tried starting it up to let it idle a few seconds. I guess I was doing this to circulate the oil and see if 2.2L was enough to read correct in the oil window. It started up easily and ran for about 4 seconds and then I shut it off.
I put the exhaust back on and then tried to start it and nothing happened. I could hear that the fuel pump (i'm guessing thats what I was hearing) was not whirring like it did before. The starter was obviously not spinning. I hit the start button and nothing happens. All the lights work and the kickstand is up, it's in neutral, clutch pulled in.
I don't have a service manual for the UCE version so I don't know where to start troubleshooting.
Any ideas?
And thanks in advance for taking time to help me out. I waited ages for parts to come from India and now it won't start. :(
« Last Edit: March 26, 2014, 03:41:08 AM by screamin lord sutch »

High On Octane

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Re: starting problem. fuel pump not priming - starter not spinning
« Reply #1 on: March 26, 2014, 03:39:36 AM »
Sounds like the side stand or roll over switch could be acting up on you.  If the bike hasn't been leaned over, it is probably the side stand switch and I'd start there.  Just unplug it and see if it starts up.  If not, check the fuses and battery terminals for failure.

Scottie J
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screamin lord sutch

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Re: starting problem. fuel pump not priming - starter not spinning
« Reply #2 on: March 26, 2014, 03:43:36 AM »
I'll check that, thank you!
I had checked all the 20amp fuses on the side and they're all ok. I just remembered there's another inline fuse on the battery terminal so I'll check that too, but it's probably fine because all the lights work.

trimleyman

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Re: starting problem. fuel pump not priming - starter not spinning
« Reply #3 on: March 26, 2014, 04:10:03 AM »
please don't cuss me out ,but did you check the engine cut-off switch on the r/h handlebars switch set/ I know it's obvious , but hey none of us are perfect.
Now 2011 Royal Enfield G5
Then:-
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Arizoni

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Re: starting problem. fuel pump not priming - starter not spinning
« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2014, 05:54:48 AM »
When the key is first turned on, the fuel pump should run for just a few seconds until it has built up pressure.  On my 2011 G5, it then stops until the engine crankshaft rotates a bit and then it temporarily runs for another second or so.

If the engine kill switch is in the run position, the neutral light is on, the clutch lever is pulled in and the key is turned on the engine should crank and start.

If nothing is happening my first guess after the fuses would be the starter solenoid.  Is it clicking when the start button is pushed?  Even if it does click it might be worthwhile to use a jumper wire to go directly from the + side of the battery directly to the starter motor for just an instant.  That would confirm that the starter motor will operate (or not).

I'm not sure where they mounted them but there are three (on my G5) little square relays somewhere.  Mine are in the left hot dog cover but the C5 doesn't have these chrome covers.
Anyway, these are the same relays that are used on many cars to operate power windows, seat heaters and an assortment of other devices.  It is possible that one of these has quit working.

Another possibility is even with the kick stand up, the safety switch on it is telling the ECU the sidestand is down.  The motorcycle won't start or run if the ECU thinks this is happening.

The quick way around this side stand switch is to simply disconnect it.  The wiring connector is at the left rear side of the engine where a branch of harness is running down the frame seat down tube.

Let us know what you find.
Jim
2011 G5 Deluxe
1999 Miata 10th Anniversary

screamin lord sutch

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Re: starting problem. fuel pump not priming - starter not spinning
« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2014, 07:08:18 AM »
it was the kickstand switch.
the kickstand is grinding away and wearing down the mount, so it's kind of loosey goosey and wobbles enough to barely push the button up in there.
I could try to machine out the slot in the kickstand to square it off again and do the same to the mount on the bike and put in a couple bronze or copper washers as bushings or I tell my buddy to get a new kickstand. the factory one is a POS I gotta say. >:(


screamin lord sutch

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Re: starting problem. fuel pump not priming - starter not spinning
« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2014, 07:17:10 AM »
When the key is first turned on, the fuel pump should run for just a few seconds until it has built up pressure.  On my 2011 G5, it then stops until the engine crankshaft rotates a bit and then it temporarily runs for another second or so.

If the engine kill switch is in the run position, the neutral light is on, the clutch lever is pulled in and the key is turned on the engine should crank and start.

If nothing is happening my first guess after the fuses would be the starter solenoid.  Is it clicking when the start button is pushed?  Even if it does click it might be worthwhile to use a jumper wire to go directly from the + side of the battery directly to the starter motor for just an instant.  That would confirm that the starter motor will operate (or not).

I'm not sure where they mounted them but there are three (on my G5) little square relays somewhere.  Mine are in the left hot dog cover but the C5 doesn't have these chrome covers.
Anyway, these are the same relays that are used on many cars to operate power windows, seat heaters and an assortment of other devices.  It is possible that one of these has quit working.

Another possibility is even with the kick stand up, the safety switch on it is telling the ECU the sidestand is down.  The motorcycle won't start or run if the ECU thinks this is happening.

The quick way around this side stand switch is to simply disconnect it.  The wiring connector is at the left rear side of the engine where a branch of harness is running down the frame seat down tube.

Let us know what you find.

great info I appreciate the response. I didn't think that the kickstand switch would keep the fuel pump from priming so I checked the relays and the fuses first... now I know in case it happens again. I could hear one of the relays clicking when I turned off the ignition so I could knew that was working. I'm more used to vintage japanese bikes without ECUs or safety kickstand switches.

Now I gotta find some oil filters... local chain stores can't find the bike in their system, and the purolator part PL7123 doesn't seem to exist anymore. And the local dealer no longer services or sells REs or stocks parts. So I guess it's ebay or something. :)

heloego

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Re: starting problem. fuel pump not priming - starter not spinning
« Reply #7 on: March 26, 2014, 09:25:54 AM »
RE has Purolator make the filters under some agreement. You won't find a replacement filter anywhere but through a RE dealer or order from Nfield Gear (nfieldgear.com). They also make up a 5-pack kit with all the o-rings, etc.
Filter only: PN is 500613/A for the C5.
5-Pack Filter Kit: PN is Z91499 for the C5.

trimleyman made a good point, too.
The kill switch bit me the other day.  :-[
« Last Edit: March 26, 2014, 09:37:15 AM by heloego »
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suitcasejefferson

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Re: starting problem. fuel pump not priming - starter not spinning
« Reply #8 on: March 26, 2014, 12:20:53 PM »
I hate those sidestand and clutch nanny switches with a passion. I have bypassed them on every bike I've owned, except for a couple of CVT scooters that have a centrifugal clutch, and could roll off the sidestand because they are always in gear. I have already disconnected the sidestand switch on the Enfield, and the clutch switch is next. My opinion is that if you really need these switches, you probably shouldn't be riding. And just like ABS, they prevent new riders from learning what they need to know to be able to ride safely. They also fail, and cause problems like you had.
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Arizoni

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Re: starting problem. fuel pump not priming - starter not spinning
« Reply #9 on: March 26, 2014, 11:15:13 PM »
My sidestand switch has been disconnected for over 2 1/2 years now with no problem leaving the stand down and no mis-fires due to the switch turning on and off whenever small bumps in the road were ridden over. :)
Jim
2011 G5 Deluxe
1999 Miata 10th Anniversary

screamin lord sutch

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Re: starting problem. fuel pump not priming - starter not spinning
« Reply #10 on: March 28, 2014, 04:22:03 AM »
has anyone noticed substantial wear on the kickstand or on the mount? The allen bolt is tightened all the way and so is the lock nut, but it feels pretty loose, wiggly. It doesn't feel like any other bike I've encountered, doesn't feel trustworthy. Is there a high quality non OEM replacement I could try?

High On Octane

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Re: starting problem. fuel pump not priming - starter not spinning
« Reply #11 on: March 28, 2014, 11:55:57 AM »
has anyone noticed substantial wear on the kickstand or on the mount? The allen bolt is tightened all the way and so is the lock nut, but it feels pretty loose, wiggly. It doesn't feel like any other bike I've encountered, doesn't feel trustworthy. Is there a high quality non OEM replacement I could try?

I don't believe anyone has tried an aftermarket switch.  The general consensus is to disconnect and remove it.  FWIW  I've been on this forum about 18 months or so and I seriously cannot remember or count the number of times people have come on here reporting "running issues" only for it to come back to be the side stand switch causing the trouble.  If you're worried about forgetting and leaving the side stand down.....  Most people only do that once.  ;)  Whether they go down or not is a different story, but it usually only happens once.

Scottie J
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1958 Enfield/Indian 711cc Twin

Building the 1st EVER Supercharged RE Twin
FULL RACE motor with ACE Performance

screamin lord sutch

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Re: starting problem. fuel pump not priming - starter not spinning
« Reply #12 on: March 31, 2014, 09:32:57 PM »
I don't believe anyone has tried an aftermarket switch.  The general consensus is to disconnect and remove it.  FWIW  I've been on this forum about 18 months or so and I seriously cannot remember or count the number of times people have come on here reporting "running issues" only for it to come back to be the side stand switch causing the trouble.  If you're worried about forgetting and leaving the side stand down.....  Most people only do that once.  ;)  Whether they go down or not is a different story, but it usually only happens once.

Scottie J


I'm not worried about the switch anymore as much as the kickstand itself not being strong enough to properly hold the bike. Its grinding down the mount on the bike and rounding off the plane of the mount so that it fits very loosely and doesn't give you a sense of security.

High On Octane

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Re: starting problem. fuel pump not priming - starter not spinning
« Reply #13 on: April 01, 2014, 02:06:42 AM »

I'm not worried about the switch anymore as much as the kickstand itself not being strong enough to properly hold the bike. Its grinding down the mount on the bike and rounding off the plane of the mount so that it fits very loosely and doesn't give you a sense of security.

That's the first I've heard of that problem.  That may be a manufacturing defect.  Can you attach a pic?

Scottie J
Bulldog Kustoms - Denver, CO
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The Blackhawk
1958 Enfield/Indian 711cc Twin

Building the 1st EVER Supercharged RE Twin
FULL RACE motor with ACE Performance

Ducati Scotty

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Re: starting problem. fuel pump not priming - starter not spinning
« Reply #14 on: April 01, 2014, 06:33:02 AM »
FWIW, the kickstand mount is a separate piece that bolts to the frame, at least on the C5.

Scott

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Re: starting problem. fuel pump not priming - starter not spinning
« Reply #15 on: April 01, 2014, 10:11:29 AM »
All this talk about moonshine makes we want to party!    ;D
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FULL RACE motor with ACE Performance

screamin lord sutch

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Re: starting problem. fuel pump not priming - starter not spinning
« Reply #16 on: April 23, 2014, 09:06:04 PM »
That's the first I've heard of that problem.  That may be a manufacturing defect.  Can you attach a pic?

Scottie J

hey sorry for the slow response, gonna revisit the bike soon and I'll get a pic.
It's got a problem now where it's kickin a lot of oil out of the airbox breather, coming up the breather hose. oil is turning dark very fast and level keeps going down. Even when the level is below the minimum in the window (when hot) it still will kick out oil through the breather hose. I found some tips to fix this for the carbureted models but not the EFI model. Gonna post a new thread if I can't find anything in the search, if you have any ideas on solutions or diagnostics I'd be very very grateful!

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Re: starting problem. fuel pump not priming - starter not spinning
« Reply #17 on: April 23, 2014, 09:24:28 PM »
I've never heard of a UCE engine spitting oil out of the breather unless the engine was overfilled.
The old Iron barrels and AVL, yes but not on the UCE engines.

Are you checking the oil level with the motorcycle resting on the side stand?
The only way to properly check it is to have the motorcycle on the center stand, resting on a level surface.

Even then, it will show a false reading unless the engine is started and allowed to run for at least 10 seconds.  This allows the oil in the side cases to flow back into the main oil tank and sight guage area so a accurate reading can be made.

Jim
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1999 Miata 10th Anniversary

ace.cafe

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Re: starting problem. fuel pump not priming - starter not spinning
« Reply #18 on: April 23, 2014, 09:31:54 PM »
The "oil getting dark very fast" concerns me. This, along with the apparent high crankcase pressure, may indicate a lot of blow-by.

Have you done a compression test?
You may have a ring problem.
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gashousegorilla

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Re: starting problem. fuel pump not priming - starter not spinning
« Reply #19 on: April 23, 2014, 09:38:08 PM »
Hello all, this is my first post after lurking a while.


I removed the right engine cover and replaced the gasket....
Today I reinstalled everything except the exhaust and I tried starting it up to let it idle a few seconds. I guess I was doing this to circulate the oil and see if 2.2L was enough to read correct in the oil window.

  Too much oil.  I usually wind up with just under 2 quarts.  You put in almost 2 1/2. 
When you had the right side cover off to replace the gasket, did you also replace the gasket on the breather chamber, inside the right side cover... That MAY have been the leak?  And MOST importantly, did you reinstall the O ring on the inlet side of the oil pump inside the right side cover, and or replace it if in bad shape? If oil can't circulate....   An oil plugged air filter is also something you could look at....
« Last Edit: April 23, 2014, 09:48:09 PM by gashousegorilla »
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screamin lord sutch

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Re: starting problem. fuel pump not priming - starter not spinning
« Reply #20 on: April 24, 2014, 06:10:06 AM »
Thanks for all the replies!
When I first worked on the bike the oil level was VERY low and very black. It was supposed to be within it's change schedule. The magnet on the drain bolt had a good bit of fuzz on it, no chunks no hunks, just fine sludgey goo of magnetic particles. None of this was very good, in my opinion, but I didn't know what to make of it yet. I didn't have a detailed maintenance record or anything like that.
Ordered a complete gasket set and opened up the right side cover because there were bits of gasket coming out and oil leaking over the swingarm, chain, inside the rear fender, all over back wheel. this is characteristic of oil coming out the airbox but I didn't check it then. The gasket bits were no big deal, just extraneous bits around the drive sprocket cover if you know what I mean....
So I did overfill at first, it was hard to gauge, and info online stated anywhere from just under 2L to 2.3L...
A few days later I checked the oil while hot on the centerstand, and it wasn't showing up in the window. So I added a bit more and the next day it pushed it out the breather again and the level was back juuuust under the window. I left it as is, and there was very little oil coming out, but after a week I checked the bike (it's my friend's bike that I'm trying to maintain for him) and the oil level was too low for my comfort and looking pretty black, so I added some more and it spit it out.
I have since learned about the oil/air labyrinth and the gasket in the breather chamber, and I'm very eager to get it opened up to see what's going on in there.
I will check for the oil pump o-ring when I'm in there as well. I have some oil change kits on order and I'll sort it out when they come in.
The air filter looked fine, but I will check it again. It has a plastic cover over it that the dealer added at some point after purchase, it seems that it's trying to direct air from the little vent in the back of the airbox directly to the filter, but it also keeps the oil off.

I suppose a compression test is in the cards. :-\

High On Octane

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Re: starting problem. fuel pump not priming - starter not spinning
« Reply #21 on: April 24, 2014, 11:49:20 AM »
Is the oil pump system the same on the UCE bikes as it is the old Iron barrels?  As in the oil pumps are operated off of a worm gear and there is a pressure/feed pump and a scavenge/return pump?  If it is then you might have the problem I ran into last year.  My bike kept spitting ALL the oil out of the crank breather.  It turned out that a PO had used an excessive amount of silicone on one of the gaskets, the silicone had broken away from the seam it was used on and made it's way through the oiling system.  It stopped when it reached the timing cover and completely blocked off the scavenge/return pump oil passages.  So the bike was pumping oil thru the engine, but the flow stopped when it reached the crank valley and just started dumping it out the back in a messy and sketchy fashion.  I pulled the timing cover off, removed the silicone pieces and blew out all of the passages with compressed air and have since added a duckbill breather.

Scottie J
Bulldog Kustoms - Denver, CO
Specializing In Kustom Paint

The Blackhawk
1958 Enfield/Indian 711cc Twin

Building the 1st EVER Supercharged RE Twin
FULL RACE motor with ACE Performance

gashousegorilla

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Re: starting problem. fuel pump not priming - starter not spinning
« Reply #22 on: April 24, 2014, 10:44:27 PM »
Thanks for all the replies!
When I first worked on the bike the oil level was VERY low and very black. It was supposed to be within it's change schedule. The magnet on the drain bolt had a good bit of fuzz on it, no chunks no hunks, just fine sludgey goo of magnetic particles. None of this was very good, in my opinion, but I didn't know what to make of it yet. I didn't have a detailed maintenance record or anything like that.
Ordered a complete gasket set and opened up the right side cover because there were bits of gasket coming out and oil leaking over the swingarm, chain, inside the rear fender, all over back wheel. this is characteristic of oil coming out the airbox but I didn't check it then. The gasket bits were no big deal, just extraneous bits around the drive sprocket cover if you know what I mean....
So I did overfill at first, it was hard to gauge, and info online stated anywhere from just under 2L to 2.3L...
A few days later I checked the oil while hot on the centerstand, and it wasn't showing up in the window. So I added a bit more and the next day it pushed it out the breather again and the level was back juuuust under the window. I left it as is, and there was very little oil coming out, but after a week I checked the bike (it's my friend's bike that I'm trying to maintain for him) and the oil level was too low for my comfort and looking pretty black, so I added some more and it spit it out.
I have since learned about the oil/air labyrinth and the gasket in the breather chamber, and I'm very eager to get it opened up to see what's going on in there.
I will check for the oil pump o-ring when I'm in there as well. I have some oil change kits on order and I'll sort it out when they come in.
The air filter looked fine, but I will check it again. It has a plastic cover over it that the dealer added at some point after purchase, it seems that it's trying to direct air from the little vent in the back of the airbox directly to the filter, but it also keeps the oil off.

I suppose a compression test is in the cards. :-\


 Yeah.... If you don't remember seeing that O ring, or dealing with it and such? IMHO, pull that cover and make sure ! It's too important, not to be sure. You would loose oil pressure if it's not there or in bad shape.  I could also imagine that MAYBE, with the oil not circulating like it should, and just accumulating in the case, it could get blown out the vent. Probably not a bad idea  to ask your buddy NOT to ride the bike until you could have a look, JUST in case.

  When you put the right side gasket cover back on... or a new one. There is absolutely no need for Permatex, three bond or gooey stuff and etc. Just a light coat of oil or grease. It's a good matting surface between the cover and case, and there should be no need for it. And will make taking it apart later MUCH easier. UNLESS , the surfaces have been damaged already.  There are very small oil passages that can be easily blocked if bits of that crap gets loose..... might even wind up in a lifter !

 There is also a oil passage that you want to be aware of behind the cover, it is on the top and just to the left and below the lifter inspection cover. It's a whole next to one of the side cover mounting bolt holes... it is NOT threaded.  Make SURE it is clear, you may wont to blow a bit of compressed air through it. And also make sure the hole on the corresponding side of the cover is clear.

 When you refill with oil after a change..... just put in the first quart. Then slowly add the second one as you watch the sight glass. And bring it up to the bottom third to one half of the sight glass and call it good... there is still a little bit of oil still in there.

  If you doing a compression test..... do it with a fully charged battery, so you can spin the motor over fast enough to defeat the auto decompressor on the exhaust cam. Fuel pump disconnected...unplugged.  And throttle wide open and hit the start button.  The starter will spin it over , without the fuel pump connected.   Bike in neutral, on center stand, side stand up.

 
« Last Edit: April 24, 2014, 11:00:49 PM by gashousegorilla »
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Re: starting problem. fuel pump not priming - starter not spinning
« Reply #23 on: April 24, 2014, 11:27:23 PM »
I didn't recall him saying he removed the oil pump and if he didn't, he wouldn't see the O-ring that's under it.

No, Scottie.  The oil pump on the UCE is entirely different than the oil pump on the Iron Barrels.
The UCE uses a modern gerotor pump instead of two piston pumps.  It also does not have a scavenge/return pump.  The UCE pump just pulls oil from the oil "tank" (sump) and supplies it to the filter cartridge.
From the filter the oil is distributed to the right end of the crankshaft, to the hydraulic valve lifters and to the rocker arms.
Oil going to the lifters and the rocker arms drains by gravity down to the cams and drive gears and back to the oil tank (sump).

Oil going thru the crankshaft lubes the bearings, piston and rings.  As it collects in the bottom of the crankcase, the flywheels on the crankshaft pick it up and throw it back onto the gears in the transmission.
After lubing the gears and gearshafts it drains by gravity back into the oil tank (sump).
Jim
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1999 Miata 10th Anniversary

Ducati Scotty

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Re: starting problem. fuel pump not priming - starter not spinning
« Reply #24 on: April 24, 2014, 11:29:20 PM »
Just want to confirm you're checking the oil level correctly.  When you say you checked it "hot", how hot?  How long had it been running?  In my experience anything less than actually riding it for 20 minutes or more and the oil isn't really hot and won't flow engough to read it easily.  Running the engine on the stand and sitting there doesn't count.

Anyway, once it's really hot stop the engine and immediately put it on the center stand on level ground.  Let it sit for a full five minutes.  THEN go look in the site glass and see where the level is.

If you just ride the bike for a few minutes and the oil isn't really hot, it won't flow over to the site glass.  It will just sit up in the engine's nooks and crannies and appear to be low when it isn't.  If you top up it will be an overfill and it will likely puke oil all over the place.

Scott

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Re: starting problem. fuel pump not priming - starter not spinning
« Reply #25 on: April 24, 2014, 11:37:31 PM »
I agree with your warm up comments Scotty but I think you forgot to mention that after the warmed motorcycle has rested on its center stand the engine needs to be restarted and allowed to idle for at least 30 seconds.

That will pump the excess oil in the left sidecover back into the oil tank so it will show up in the sight glass.

Failing to restart the engine will usually give a "low" reading.
Jim
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1999 Miata 10th Anniversary

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Re: starting problem. fuel pump not priming - starter not spinning
« Reply #26 on: April 24, 2014, 11:44:28 PM »
If it's really hot and you put it right up on the stand, it will all flow over in the five minutes.

Scott

gashousegorilla

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Re: starting problem. fuel pump not priming - starter not spinning
« Reply #27 on: April 25, 2014, 12:08:00 AM »
I didn't recall him saying he removed the oil pump and if he didn't, he wouldn't see the O-ring that's under it.


  Me neither..... I am referring to item 26 which is between the pump and the right side cover. Sorry, OUTLET side of the pump.....

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« Last Edit: April 25, 2014, 12:13:19 AM by gashousegorilla »
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Arizoni

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Re: starting problem. fuel pump not priming - starter not spinning
« Reply #28 on: April 25, 2014, 01:05:35 AM »
Ah!  That one. :)
Jim
2011 G5 Deluxe
1999 Miata 10th Anniversary

gashousegorilla

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Re: starting problem. fuel pump not priming - starter not spinning
« Reply #29 on: April 25, 2014, 02:03:28 AM »
Ah!  That one. :)


 Yes  ;)    Que es MUY importante !  A bad seal between IT and the back of the oil filter housing on the cover. NOT good.....  Sometimes when you pull the cover, you find it in place on the end of the pump, sometimes on the back side of the cover, sometimes it falls on the floor.  Before I put the cover back on, I stick it on the pump (new one) with some grease to hold it in place, then carfully watch it as I eaaase the cover on.

  A bad seal... or no seal between the pump and the filter would reduce pressure , or No pressure!  Out to the lifters, the cylinder, the head, the pushrod tips, the valve stems, the rockers, through the crank shaft to the big end, and etc.  It's an important little O ring !  As you mentioned....

 A bad seal or no seal, and the oil would pour or spray out between the pump and filter housing ...side cover...and accumulate in the side cover and sump. AND near or in the breather chamber.  Excess oil that is, because it is not going where it is supposed to be, or in a reduced amount.  Add in some normal ring blow by, and positive pressure in the case....... out the vent it goes.  Just a thought.  :-\

 
« Last Edit: April 25, 2014, 04:21:11 AM by gashousegorilla »
An thaibhsí atá rattling ag an doras agus tá sé an diabhal sa chathaoir.