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Author Topic: Premium fuel  (Read 1319 times)

sbenson619

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Premium fuel
« on: April 24, 2014, 02:29:43 AM »
So I've read a couple of topics about how premium gas is a waste and people run there bike on 87. Well I decided today to try 91 and I definitely noticed less vibrations and a little bit more pep to the bike. Not sure about other peoples experiences but I'm definitely sticking with 91 now. Maybe it's california gas?

GSS

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Re: Premium fuel
« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2014, 02:34:41 AM »
No harm in using 91......and for how little gas this takes, the price difference is negligible.
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2010 C5 - Teal
It's a Jeep thing......

hortoncode3

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Re: Premium fuel
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2014, 07:58:19 AM »
I agree...run the 91. The EFI system compensates to a degree for lower octane but for a couple gallons who notices the price really? With no scientific data to back me I say it runs better at low speeds and gets better mileage. Also, with absolutely no science to back me up I say buy gas at a nationally known supplier. I prefer Sunoco, since they have the highest octane around here, 93. I think it's higher quality..

Mr.Mazza

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Re: Premium fuel
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2014, 08:51:41 AM »
Ive noticed a difference in fuel, 91 is the shit I run in the beatup backup car. 98 or 100 in Lizzy, big difference in power and milege and our high octane fuels have them lovely cleaning agents.
Lizzy - 07 500 Deluxe ES - Red and chrome

Pedrocas

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Re: Premium fuel
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2014, 12:34:58 PM »
I only use 95 Octane, every time and runs well.
Don't know about consumption, but to be honest, here in Sydney there is basically 91 Octane E10, 95 Octane and 98 Octane Premium. The thing is the 91 Octane has 10% Ethanol. Not really sure I would go down to that level anyways.

Barnone

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Re: Premium fuel
« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2014, 12:35:43 PM »
I agree...run the 91. The EFI system compensates to a degree for lower octane but for a couple gallons who notices the price really? With no scientific data to back me I say it runs better at low speeds and gets better mileage. Also, with absolutely no science to back me up I say buy gas at a nationally known supplier. I prefer Sunoco, since they have the highest octane around here, 93. I think it's higher quality..
Probably all the gasoline in your area comes down the same pipeline.   
Vince
2001 Kawasaki W650
2012 Ural Yamal
2012 DF250RTB
Fort Myers,FL or Robbinsville,NC

Vince

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Re: Premium fuel
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2014, 04:50:38 PM »
     Octane 101
     Octane is a measure of how slow or fast the gas burns. High octane = slow burn. Low octane = fast burn. It's help in performance is rooted to being matched to the engine's needs. Use the right octane for the engine.
     . Gas does not instantly explode, it burns at a rate predicated by the octane. Spark does not happen at top dead center. Spark ignites the gas at distance before top dead center that ensures a complete burn and maximum power at TDC. Because of higher piston speeds, high compression and high revving engines require more spark advance. This requires high octane for a controlled burn. Low octane would cause pre-ignition/detonation in a high performance motor as it would burn out before TDC. High octane in a low performance engine would not burn completely; the unburned gas will form carbon deposits that will affect running over time, damage valve seats, and cause sticking rings.
     Modern engine management systems are much more forgiving of different grades of octane. But even if the system manages it, it's not really needed or cost effective to run premium fuel in an Enfield.
   The octane # is an average of two different testing methods here in the US. Other countries use only one method, so the rating may be higher or lower and you can't draw a direct correlation to our numbers.
     Other misunderstandings:
     You don't need lead. Modern valves and seats are hardened and do not need the cushioning effect lead gave to 1930 era engines.
     Don't sweat the ethanol. Modern formulations are pretty good. It does tend to bond with water from condensation during periods of non-use. So ride more or use a drying agent such as Heet during storage.
     

Ducati Scotty

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Re: Premium fuel
« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2014, 05:15:30 PM »
I generally say use low octane.  If you notice your engine seems to run better and smoother on high octane, then use it :)

Also, remember there are different octane standards.  In the US, 87 is the lowest and 92 is the highest you can find at most stations.  Other parts of the world use a different standard and the lowest you may find there is in the low 90s.  That's the same as US 87, just measured with a different standard.

Scott

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Re: Premium fuel
« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2014, 05:44:08 PM »
Colorado sells 85 octane fuel which doesn't work with a crap in the Blackhawk or my high compression Subaru.  Like Ducati Scotty said, if it runs better with the high octane stick with it, if you don't notice a difference then use the cheaper lower octane fuel.

Scottie J
Scottie J  ~  Bulldog Kustoms Denver  ~  1958 Enfield/Indian Trailblazer  ~  1959 Enfield/Indian Chief

suitcasejefferson

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Re: Premium fuel
« Reply #9 on: April 24, 2014, 05:45:14 PM »
     Octane 101
     Octane is a measure of how slow or fast the gas burns. High octane = slow burn. Low octane = fast burn. It's help in performance is rooted to being matched to the engine's needs. Use the right octane for the engine.
     . Gas does not instantly explode, it burns at a rate predicated by the octane. Spark does not happen at top dead center. Spark ignites the gas at distance before top dead center that ensures a complete burn and maximum power at TDC. Because of higher piston speeds, high compression and high revving engines require more spark advance. This requires high octane for a controlled burn. Low octane would cause pre-ignition/detonation in a high performance motor as it would burn out before TDC. High octane in a low performance engine would not burn completely; the unburned gas will form carbon deposits that will affect running over time, damage valve seats, and cause sticking rings.
     Modern engine management systems are much more forgiving of different grades of octane. But even if the system manages it, it's not really needed or cost effective to run premium fuel in an Enfield.
   The octane # is an average of two different testing methods here in the US. Other countries use only one method, so the rating may be higher or lower and you can't draw a direct correlation to our numbers.
     Other misunderstandings:
     You don't need lead. Modern valves and seats are hardened and do not need the cushioning effect lead gave to 1930 era engines.
     Don't sweat the ethanol. Modern formulations are pretty good. It does tend to bond with water from condensation during periods of non-use. So ride more or use a drying agent such as Heet during storage.
   

All correct, other than I feel differently about the ethanol, having had a lot of expensive damage caused by it, including 2 oem Honda plastic fuel tanks. I use 87 octane, and it works fine for me. The highest octane you can get here is 91, you can use it, it might be a little bit less efficient, but the difference is not enough to cause carbon buildup IMO. Problem is, it also has ethanol in it. I know of no source in my state for real gas, other than pre packaged race fuel, local dragstrip sells Sunoco 100 and 110 octane in 5 gallon cans for around $70. I have used it for long term storage of bikes when I wanted to be able to start them up once in a while. It already has stabilizers in it, and has a shelf life of over 2 years.
I am a motorcyclist, NOT a biker.
2013 Royal Enfield B5
2002 Kawasaki Vulcan 750
2001 Yamaha XT225
2015 SYM HD200 scooter
2009 Genuine Stella 2 stroke scooter
1971 VeloSolex S3800

Ducati Scotty

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Re: Premium fuel
« Reply #10 on: April 24, 2014, 06:21:25 PM »
Ethanol damage to plastic fuel tanks is unique to the US, where we add ethanol to gasoline, but almost all motorcycle manufacturers have been hit by this here.  Some boat companies have had the same problems with fiberglass tanks.  The base problem is that certain plastics tend to absorb ethanol over time and distort and/or weaken.

Depending on the bike and model, there are some 'fixes', like 2 part coatings that can be used to coat a new tank.  If a tank has been affected it can sometimes be emptied and will resume its original shape and strength over time as the alcohol leaves the structure.  You may be able to coat it at that time. 

Ducati stopped using their older plastic tanks and moved to a new version on some models.  Instead of a pretty, single layer plastic tank that can be painted and look nice, they now have an ugly black plastic tank that is ethanol resistant under some thin exterior plasitc skins.

The only sure fire way not to have this problem is not to have a plastic tank or to use only ethanol free fuel if you do. 

Motorcycles, boats, and other recereational/utility vehicles are not usually tested to see how they withstand E10 gasoline.  Cars are.  A recent attempt to move to E15 gasoline with more ethanol was quickly rejected, as all car makers said they are not ready to have their new cars certified for that and because of how many existing cars on the road could be negatively affected.

All that said, I've use E10 in my C5 since I got it nearly 4 years ago.  The only problems I've had were some bubbling of the paint inside the tank and around the filler neck and the cracking of the exterior layer of the fuel line early on.  To be fair, some bikes come out of the crate with the fuel line cracked.

Scott

suitcasejefferson

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Re: Premium fuel
« Reply #11 on: April 24, 2014, 10:41:07 PM »
These tanks were on a Honda XR100 and an XR200. They developed cracks all over, in a very short time. My daughter and I went out and rode them, they seemed fine. I put them in the shed, and a couple weeks went out there, smelled gas, and found the ruined tanks. Nearly $400 apiece new. I also have an aftermarket plastic tank on my XT225. Holds 4 gallons. Stock metal tank held 2.25 gallons. Not enough. I am sort of expecting the same thing to happen to it.

I have seen a lot of carb, fuel line, and petcock damage due to ethanol. It turns rubber to mush. One carb, on a Honda generator that has ethanol gas left in it was so badly corroded it had to be replaced. Someone here said it melted a fuel level float in the tank on an Enfield.

Strangely, all the damage seems to be to bikes. I have a '64 Ford and a '72 Ford, and they sit a lot. I've had them over 10 years, and have not found any problems.
I am a motorcyclist, NOT a biker.
2013 Royal Enfield B5
2002 Kawasaki Vulcan 750
2001 Yamaha XT225
2015 SYM HD200 scooter
2009 Genuine Stella 2 stroke scooter
1971 VeloSolex S3800

gashousegorilla

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Re: Premium fuel
« Reply #12 on: April 24, 2014, 10:57:39 PM »


 

Strangely, all the damage seems to be to bikes.....

  +1 .  Honda carbs and petcocks hate the stuff, especially the ones from the seventies.  I have seem it so bad , where the posts of the jets corrode from the stuff sitting in the float bowls.


 
An thaibhsí atá rattling ag an doras agus tá sé an diabhal sa chathaoir.

Craig McClure

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Re: Non-Premium fuel
« Reply #13 on: April 25, 2014, 02:42:07 AM »
ETHANOL: I ceased to have any corrosion or damage from it, when I started using STABIL MARINE FORMULA (green stuff) In my carbureted bikes. I continue to use it with the cheapest, lowest octane gas QT station has to offer, and my 2010 G5 Deluxe loves it - runs great .
Best Wishes, Craig McClure

MrMike

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Re: Premium fuel
« Reply #14 on: April 25, 2014, 02:47:38 AM »
I really have a problem with ethanol.  Have had five small engines fail due to corrosion in the tank, carb, or other part of the fuel system.  Fuel lines crumble, etc. Now, I run ethanol free gas in all of my small engines: chain saws, generaters, weed eaters, etc., etc.  This includes my Enfield G5 with UCE and Yamaha 1100.  I pay a few cents more at the pump but feel like it is insurance. 
2011 G5 Deluxe w/Kozi Rocket
2009 V-Star 950 Tourer w/Velorex 562

dginfw

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Re: Premium fuel
« Reply #15 on: April 25, 2014, 04:06:37 AM »
+1 on using an additive when running ethanol.  By now, most of the country is using ethanol....for reasons which are purely political and financial.  On engines that are designed to run straight gas, ethanol lowers power and fuel economy,  plus it raises the cost to consumers.
Dave in TX:   '01  W650
                    '14 Continental GT
                    '06 Iron Barrel Bullet

Arizoni

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Re: Premium fuel
« Reply #16 on: April 25, 2014, 04:15:09 AM »
About the only fuel we can get at a filling station here in Arizona has 10% ethanol in it.
All of the local filling stations have 87, 89 and 91 octane.

Being a low tech engine I've had no problem using the 87 octane around Phoenix.  No pings. Runs smoothly and gives me a little over 70 mpg (US gal).

When I make my trip up to Flagstaff where I'll be climbing 7% grades I do fill up with the 91 octane fuel just to be on the safe side.  (Running with a wide open throttle to maintain 50 mph for over 5 miles without stopping does heat up the engine a bit and I think the higher anti-knock fuel gives better protection under these conditions.)
Jim
2011 G5 Deluxe
1999 Miata 10th Anniversary

Barnone

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Re: Premium fuel
« Reply #17 on: April 25, 2014, 11:13:14 AM »
When I make my trip up to Flagstaff where I'll be climbing 7% grades I do fill up with the 91 octane fuel just to be on the safe side.  (Running with a wide open throttle to maintain 50 mph for over 5 miles without stopping does heat up the engine a bit and I think the higher anti-knock fuel gives better protection under these conditions.)
Wonder what cylinder heat temperatures you will be getting on your run to Flag? 
I have this CHT gauge on my DF and Ural to watch the temps.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Trail-Tech-TTO-Temperature-Meter-Black-Digital-Gauge-14mm-Spark-Plug-Sensor-NEW-/380890308908

Vince
2001 Kawasaki W650
2012 Ural Yamal
2012 DF250RTB
Fort Myers,FL or Robbinsville,NC

High On Octane

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Re: Premium fuel
« Reply #18 on: April 25, 2014, 12:27:43 PM »
I have never experienced any of the problems from Ethanol that some of you seem to have experienced.  I've seen some nasty sludge in different carbs before, but I've never seen gas tanks fall apart or fuel lines rot out because of it.

Scottie J
Scottie J  ~  Bulldog Kustoms Denver  ~  1958 Enfield/Indian Trailblazer  ~  1959 Enfield/Indian Chief

mattsz

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Re: Premium fuel
« Reply #19 on: April 25, 2014, 04:31:18 PM »
The only problems I've had were some bubbling of the paint inside the tank and around the filler neck and the cracking of the exterior layer of the fuel line early on.  To be fair, some bikes come out of the crate with the fuel line cracked.

Bubbling paint around the filler necks is another problem seen out of the crate.  I saw it on a batch of '11 - '12 vintage RE's at a dealership...

suitcasejefferson

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Re: Premium fuel
« Reply #20 on: April 25, 2014, 08:49:37 PM »
About the only fuel we can get at a filling station here in Arizona has 10% ethanol in it.
All of the local filling stations have 87, 89 and 91 octane.

Being a low tech engine I've had no problem using the 87 octane around Phoenix.  No pings. Runs smoothly and gives me a little over 70 mpg (US gal).

When I make my trip up to Flagstaff where I'll be climbing 7% grades I do fill up with the 91 octane fuel just to be on the safe side.  (Running with a wide open throttle to maintain 50 mph for over 5 miles without stopping does heat up the engine a bit and I think the higher anti-knock fuel gives better protection under these conditions.)

I recently rode up to Forest Lakes (east of Payson) and used 87 octane. Rather than try and maintain 50 mph in 5th gear, on some of the long steep grades, I downshifted to fourth and went about 40 mph. I don't like the idea of using full throttle for more than a few seconds at the time. Two lanes in the same direction, and I was not in a hurry.
I am a motorcyclist, NOT a biker.
2013 Royal Enfield B5
2002 Kawasaki Vulcan 750
2001 Yamaha XT225
2015 SYM HD200 scooter
2009 Genuine Stella 2 stroke scooter
1971 VeloSolex S3800

Craig McClure

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Re: Premium fuel
« Reply #21 on: April 26, 2014, 03:52:07 PM »
Trust Me, The EFI engines are made to run on the lower octane gas. If you use STABIL MARINE formula fuel stabilizer, it counteracts the negative effects of Ethanol. The Experts say you can run high octane, but are wasting your money. Running any single cylinder engine you can close the throttle occasionally to insure oiling the upper end, but probably don't NEED to.
Best Wishes, Craig McClure

suitcasejefferson

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Re: Premium fuel
« Reply #22 on: April 26, 2014, 04:13:33 PM »
Bubbling paint around the filler necks is another problem seen out of the crate.  I saw it on a batch of '11 - '12 vintage RE's at a dealership...

The bubbling paint was an issue on my 2013. All of it is gone now, and some of it fell down inside the tank. What came off around the filler was not enough to plug up the fuel pump filter, but I am still concerned because it looks like the entire inside of the tank is painted. Some paint can resist ethanol for a long time, but it will eventually began to soften and come loose.

Those dirt bikes were several years old, and had probably had ethanol in them the whole time. The plastic was not melted, just badly cracked all over. I have other plastic and rubber melt.

Supposedly marine grade Stabil will help, but I haven't found any actual proof yet. Ethanol is some nasty stuff, and just doesn't belong in motor vehicles.

A little off topic, but I was watching this weird video on Youtube, these 2 guys were customizing a car. They wanted it rusty. They stripped off all the paint, then soaked it in beer. It rusted very quickly.
I am a motorcyclist, NOT a biker.
2013 Royal Enfield B5
2002 Kawasaki Vulcan 750
2001 Yamaha XT225
2015 SYM HD200 scooter
2009 Genuine Stella 2 stroke scooter
1971 VeloSolex S3800

trimleyman

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Re: Premium fuel
« Reply #23 on: April 26, 2014, 07:17:00 PM »
I tried 91 octane when new and did not notice any improvement over 87 so have stuck with ARCO 87 ever since. Now I am in the SF bay area so we have that special California gas with the extra additive for cleaner emissions.  I understand it's technical name is BS (comes from cattle I am told) and requires an extra 20c per gallon pricing.
Now 2011 Royal Enfield G5 and just added 2014 Continental GT
Then:-
1978 Ducati 900 GTES
1969 Ducati 350 Desmo Racer
1972 Mototrans Ducati 250 24 Horas
1965 Triumph Tiger Cub 200
1967 BSA Bantum

Candoman

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Re: Premium fuel
« Reply #24 on: April 26, 2014, 09:28:15 PM »
I store my bikes with premium gas and Stable. I was told that premium had less ethanol in it. However, I don't know this is in fact true. I normally run regular gas and can't say I notice any difference in performance.
2012 Royal Enfield C5 Chrome
2010 Triumph Speedmaster
2009 Yamaha Zuma 125
2006 Suzuki Burgman 650

High On Octane

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Re: Premium fuel
« Reply #25 on: April 27, 2014, 12:31:43 AM »
What it really boils down to is unless you are running 10:1 compression or higher OR you run a lot of advance on your timing AND/OR you flog your bike on a regular basis    ;D    premium fuel will do nothing for you besides spend your money.

Scottie J
Scottie J  ~  Bulldog Kustoms Denver  ~  1958 Enfield/Indian Trailblazer  ~  1959 Enfield/Indian Chief

AwL

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Re: Premium fuel
« Reply #26 on: April 27, 2014, 10:10:11 PM »
Here's a website that lists gas stations all over the US that have ethanol-free gas.  al
http://pure-gas.org/index.jsp

bob bezin

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Re: Premium fuel
« Reply #27 on: April 28, 2014, 03:19:04 PM »
thanks. i found 93 right here in viroqua.
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2006 RE delux fireball       86 yamaha SRX 600
65 500cctriumph
04 bonnie black
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