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Author Topic: Type F Is BAD!  (Read 854 times)

High On Octane

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Type F Is BAD!
« on: April 26, 2014, 01:59:02 PM »
So there has been a bit of debate over what type of fluid to use in the primary cover.  Several people have claimed that Type F trans fluid is the way to go.  Well, I'm here to say that Type F blows in the primary.  I was using Type F before and bad clutch problems and didn't think anything of it.  After my clutch rebuild I used Castrol Import Multi-Vehicle and my clutch worked great, seldom slipped and overall worked just fine.  Well, I decided to pull the primary cover and do a bead of silicone to try and get my leaks under control and filled it back up with Advance Auto Parts Type F.  I didn't even get out of my parking lot before I noticed the clutch slipping like freaking crazy.  It was bad, REALLY bad.  So bad that I basically came straight back home, drained the fluid, put about 10 ounces of lacquer thinner in the primary and sloshed that around for a bit, drained that, went for another ride with the primary empty and the clutch is still slipping.

DO NOT USE TYPE F IN YOUR PRIMARY!!!
IT WILL CAUSE YOUR CLUTCH TO SLIP!!!


Scottie J
Scottie J
Denver, CO

1958 Enfield/Indian Trailblazer

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Re: Type F Is BAD!
« Reply #1 on: April 26, 2014, 02:28:57 PM »
 I think it's a case by case basis ( no pun intended ) with each bike having it's own preference and here's why:

  In clutch of the Harris Scrambler, Type F gives the absolute best results possible, Dexrons not so much and engine oils  :P

 On the other hand anything other than engine oil really really sucks for use in the clutch of Timex.
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azcatfan

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Re: Type F Is BAD!
« Reply #2 on: April 26, 2014, 02:36:59 PM »
I think it's a case by case basis ( no pun intended ) with each bike having it's own preference and here's why:

  In clutch of the Harris Scrambler, Type F gives the absolute best results possible, Dexrons not so much and engine oils  :P

 On the other hand anything other than engine oil really really sucks for use in the clutch of Timex.

I agree, when I got my bike the PO was using motorcycle oil in the primary, when I did the oil changes on it I switched to ATF and from the first ride and since the clutch has felt so much better.    ???
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Re: Type F Is BAD!
« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2014, 02:49:22 PM »
So there has been a bit of debate over what type of fluid to use in the primary cover.  Several people have claimed that Type F trans fluid is the way to go.  Well, I'm here to say that Type F blows in the primary.  I was using Type F before and bad clutch problems and didn't think anything of it.  After my clutch rebuild I used Castrol Import Multi-Vehicle and my clutch worked great, seldom slipped and overall worked just fine.  Well, I decided to pull the primary cover and do a bead of silicone to try and get my leaks under control and filled it back up with Advance Auto Parts Type F.  I didn't even get out of my parking lot before I noticed the clutch slipping like freaking crazy.  It was bad, REALLY bad.  So bad that I basically came straight back home, drained the fluid, put about 10 ounces of lacquer thinner in the primary and sloshed that around for a bit, drained that, went for another ride with the primary empty and the clutch is still slipping.

DO NOT USE TYPE F IN YOUR PRIMARY!!!
IT WILL CAUSE YOUR CLUTCH TO SLIP!!!


Scottie J
           
           Found my '08 AVL in December 2010. Bought it from the lawyer liquidating an out-of-business dealer's stock (he knew Nothing). Zero miles, seemingly perfect, sat in a back room for two years, gas drained, no battery. I knew nothing about REs then. Learned everything here & other websites & various manuals. Just by luck it was an AVL, not a UCE.

            I drained everything when it arrived & put a quart of Type F in the primary based on what I read here. All went perfect, no clutch slippage ever & I drained everything again at 300 & again at 600 with Type F in the primary (I know. Overkill. Oil is cheap). Bike now at 950.

             No clutch slippage ever. Clutch is smooth as pig shit all the time.

              Maybe I don't beat it hard enough.

             As soon as the bike's back running again & the new TM-32's dialed in & I can get it good and hot again & I'm over a 1,000 I'm gonna drain everything again & see how the Type F does over the next 2 or 3,000 miles. 
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1977 Shovelhead Hardtail Bobber

ROVERMAN

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Re: Type F Is BAD!
« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2014, 02:53:22 PM »
I went from 20/50 Castrol car oil to F-type in my 4 spd Iron. No difference, worked fine with both at all times. Let the debate begin.

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Re: Type F Is BAD!
« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2014, 03:31:43 PM »
It'll work but it's a seeker and leaks out easier than regular oil. Frankly I don't use it.  ERC
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High On Octane

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Re: Type F Is BAD!
« Reply #6 on: April 26, 2014, 04:14:54 PM »
I don't know maybe it is just the Advance brand in particular.

ERC - What do you use in the primary?
Scottie J
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Re: Type F Is BAD!
« Reply #7 on: April 26, 2014, 04:34:38 PM »
During a primary servicing, I ran out of the 15w-40 oil I was topping up with. So I mixed in some type F to finish up the job.
No noticeable difference with the mix.
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ace.cafe

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Re: Type F Is BAD!
« Reply #8 on: April 26, 2014, 07:08:21 PM »
There's probably more than 30 Fireballs out there using Type F to prevent clutch slip.
Something isn't adding up.
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Re: Type F Is BAD!
« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2014, 08:12:21 PM »
Before my conversion to belt drive which runs dry,I used type f with no slippage problems even after the power bump up of the fireballing. But it is thin and does tend to leak a bit after it heats up.
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Re: Type F Is BAD!
« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2014, 09:42:00 PM »
I'm just running a 15w-40 motorcycle engine oil (Ones without friction mods) and will change that to a 20w-50, which iswhat I run in everything on the bike.
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Re: Type F Is BAD!
« Reply #11 on: April 26, 2014, 10:24:06 PM »
I wonder if there was something wrong with the  Advance Auto Parts Type F fluid?

Yah.  I know.  If it said Type F it should meet all of the requirements of Type F but something is strange.

Both Type F and Dexron are specifically designed to be used with friction clutches so they don't slip.

It's the friction clutches that lock the various planetary gear systems to shift gears in a automatic transmission.

Maybe a name brand Type F works but whatever Advance Auto is selling is the lowest cost stuff that (almost) meets the fluids requirements?
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cafeman

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Re: Type F Is BAD!
« Reply #12 on: April 26, 2014, 11:12:39 PM »
I'm using Advance Auto Type F in my primary also and I have no slip issues. Maybe it's a case of "two right oils make a wrong"....

meaning they might be fine by themselves but mixed together they make something akin to KY Jelly? :o

High On Octane

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Re: Type F Is BAD!
« Reply #13 on: April 27, 2014, 12:24:24 AM »
I have a theory.  My clutch only slips under load of half throttle or more.  I wonder if the Bullets just don't have enough HP to cause a slipping issue.  Anyways, I pulled it apart hosed the clutch assembly with brake cleaner and refilled with Valvoline 20W50 bike oil and no longer have any slipping issues.  Regardless, I'm not using any kind of ATF in my primary from now on.  ESPECIALLY Advance Type F.

Still curious to hear other peoples input on this.     :)

Scottie J
Scottie J
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1958 Enfield/Indian Trailblazer

ace.cafe

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Re: Type F Is BAD!
« Reply #14 on: April 27, 2014, 12:45:15 AM »
Yours is the only case like this i have ever heard of.

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Mr.Mazza

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Re: Type F Is BAD!
« Reply #15 on: April 27, 2014, 01:16:36 AM »
Yours is the only case like this i have ever heard of.

He has always been a little different hasn't he? :P
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High On Octane

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Re: Type F Is BAD!
« Reply #16 on: April 27, 2014, 02:27:11 AM »
He has always been a little different hasn't he? :P

LOL  :)

I don't know what the hell the deal is.  All I know is that since switching to bike oil the clutch works fantastic.  See?!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Eow9kLJuMc&list=UUOuxT3uDOINbn5OmZ0BwRVA

Scottie J
Scottie J
Denver, CO

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Mr.Mazza

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Re: Type F Is BAD!
« Reply #17 on: April 27, 2014, 02:29:09 AM »
LOL  :)

I don't know what the hell the deal is.  All I know is that since switching to bike oil the clutch works fantastic.  See?!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Eow9kLJuMc&list=UUOuxT3uDOINbn5OmZ0BwRVA

Scottie J

What a fun way to test a clutch haha!
Lizzy - 07 500 Deluxe ES - Red and chrome

High On Octane

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Re: Type F Is BAD!
« Reply #18 on: April 27, 2014, 02:37:25 AM »
What a fun way to test a clutch haha!

I had to back out of it!  She started getting squirrely!  ;D
Scottie J
Denver, CO

1958 Enfield/Indian Trailblazer

Mr.Mazza

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Re: Type F Is BAD!
« Reply #19 on: April 27, 2014, 02:43:15 AM »
I had to back out of it!  She started getting squirrely!  ;D

See I can test my whole bikes engine/gearbox by just going home, I live on a dirt/loose gravel road on a 23% hill, with nothing but potholes and dropdown gutters which I have to tackle standing on the pegs endure style, first gear basically wide open (Great fun!) at like 15mph, after a downhill 30% mile long decline.
Whole bike test just to leave and come home :D
Lizzy - 07 500 Deluxe ES - Red and chrome

Blltrdr

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Re: Type F Is BAD!
« Reply #20 on: April 27, 2014, 02:56:36 AM »
Is it type F you bought Scottie or type FA. I made the mistake one time of taking the FA off the shelf without really looking at what I was grabbing. I usually use Castrol type F with no slippage. Use what works for you because the only thing that matters is the performance of your bike, not what works for others.
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High On Octane

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Re: Type F Is BAD!
« Reply #21 on: April 27, 2014, 03:48:51 AM »
It was Type F.  It has got to be that particular brand if so many other people are using Type F and not having issues.  Weird.    ???
Scottie J
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Mr.Mazza

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Re: Type F Is BAD!
« Reply #22 on: April 27, 2014, 03:56:46 AM »
It was Type F.  It has got to be that particular brand if so many other people are using Type F and not having issues.  Weird.    ???

Doesn't your Blackhawk have a different more HD clutch setup? Maybe the different plates don't coincide with the ATF oil, that stuff is pretty light. And a pain in the ass to clean up when some bozo forgets to have a oil drainer under that car D:
Lizzy - 07 500 Deluxe ES - Red and chrome

High On Octane

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Re: Type F Is BAD!
« Reply #23 on: April 27, 2014, 04:14:44 AM »
It's not a heavy duty clutch but it is improved over the OEM set up.  And the only reason I changed it was because it started slipping, so I put this same Type F in it and within a couple of weeks the clutch was completely cooked to where I couldn't hardly ride the damn bike anymore.  I'm now convinced the Advance Type F was the cause of the original clutch's failure.

Scottie J
Scottie J
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Re: Type F Is BAD!
« Reply #24 on: April 27, 2014, 04:30:59 AM »
It's not a heavy duty clutch but it is improved over the OEM set up.  And the only reason I changed it was because it started slipping, so I put this same Type F in it and within a couple of weeks the clutch was completely cooked to where I couldn't hardly ride the damn bike anymore.  I'm now convinced the Advance Type F was the cause of the original clutch's failure.

Scottie J

Hmm, seems legit Scottie. Whatever works, works, you and me both on that ATF = no go ;)
Lizzy - 07 500 Deluxe ES - Red and chrome

ace.cafe

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Re: Type F Is BAD!
« Reply #25 on: April 27, 2014, 11:14:10 AM »
Maybe it has something to do with the way that scissor clutch works? I don't know. There should have been improved performance with Type F, unless that clutch can' t use a thin weight oil for some reason.
The actual formulation of the fluid indicates that the Type F would be grabbier, and hold better than motor oil. It is actually designed and made to have that characteristic. So, for it to have the opposite effect would be very unusual, unless there is something about your clutch design that would somehow be incompatible.
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head . Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available .  AVL mods. Redditch 700/750 Twin mods. UCE kit soon.

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High On Octane

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Re: Type F Is BAD!
« Reply #26 on: April 27, 2014, 12:36:28 PM »
I'm not sure Ace.  Like I mentioned, the clutch started slipping last fall.  Upon the advice of this forum, I switched to Type F ATF, the Advance brand.  Immediately the clutch started to slip even more, and eventually the plates were so glazed that any attempt of more than 25% throttle resulted in the engine revving and acting like I had the clutch pulled in.  No amount of adjustment made it better.  I then rebuilt the the entire clutch, everything is brand new except the basket itself, and I even put new "corks" in the basket, which actually appear to be some kind of Raybestos or Asbestos brake pad material.  When I assembled the primary back together I was using Castrol Import Model ATF and had not one single issue.  I pulled the primary apart to test and remove the electrical components, refilled with Advance Type F and immediately noticed poor clutch action and the clutch slipping severely bad over half throttle.  So I cleaned the clutch assembly with the brake cleaner and refilled with the 20W50 motorcycle oil and now it doesn't slip at all again.

OH, and 1 more reason that I don't want to use ATF in the primary anymore?  I really hate smelling that crap burn off of my exhaust pipe.    :-\

Scottie J
Scottie J
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ace.cafe

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Re: Type F Is BAD!
« Reply #27 on: April 27, 2014, 01:16:58 PM »
So, if the castrol ATF worked okay, then that points at the Advanced Auto brand.

But, if your clutch doesn't need the extra holding of the Type F, you don't need to use that. We use it because our clutches won't hold the power with engine oil in the primary, and slip. In our applications, it's a cure for slipping,. So that's why it is so surprising to me.
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High On Octane

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Re: Type F Is BAD!
« Reply #28 on: April 27, 2014, 01:37:36 PM »
Well, maybe after I get a new alternator installed, again (fuck I'm sick of buying rectifiers and alternators) I'll try the Castrol Import Model fluid again, that stuff seemed to work great.  Now if I could only get my primary to seal and stop leaking.  ::)
Scottie J
Denver, CO

1958 Enfield/Indian Trailblazer

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Re: Type F Is BAD!
« Reply #29 on: April 27, 2014, 03:11:54 PM »
Scottie I use 10-30 Yamalube in all of them. ERC
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Re: Type F Is BAD!
« Reply #30 on: April 27, 2014, 03:52:52 PM »
Well, maybe after I get a new alternator installed, again (fuck I'm sick of buying rectifiers and alternators) I'll try the Castrol Import Model fluid again, that stuff seemed to work great.  Now if I could only get my primary to seal and stop leaking.  ::)

If you have leaks it may be your cover is distorted from being torqued down to tight. If you cant get it to seal using some rtv along with your gasket you might have to get a new cover.
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High On Octane

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Re: Type F Is BAD!
« Reply #31 on: April 27, 2014, 05:00:40 PM »
If you have leaks it may be your cover is distorted from being torqued down to tight. If you cant get it to seal using some rtv along with your gasket you might have to get a new cover.

Ahhhh Hog Wash!  All of it!  The cover is distorted from WELDING it because I BROKE it from torquing it down too tight.  And I'm not replacing that damn cover!  I just need MORE silicone!

 ;D  ;D  ;D

Seriously, it probably wouldn't leaking this time but I was anxious to go out and cause some trouble and only let the silicone dry for about 90 minutes before I filled it.  Oh well.   ::)

Speaking of causing trouble.......    ;D  So as most of you know I keep my bike tuned on the rich side and like to make my exhaust talk back.  Well as the weather is warming up the bike is running even a little richer than before and with the timing at 34* full advance I've discovered that when I back off of a heavy half throttle+ acceleration and close it quick without shifting gears, it gives off 3 or 4 big nasty cracks then gargles and pops for a bit.  Well, not thinking anything of it and enjoying my ride, I come flying down this hill hard in 3rd  and as I get to the bottom I close the throttle .  Well, this unsuspecting black urban teenager was walking/dancing along the sidewalk with his headphones and skinny jeans down past his ass.  ::)  I'm about 30' behind when I closed the throttle at a "faster than posted speed" and the Blackhawk belts out 2 backfires that were so loud it made MY ears ring!  Immediately followed by 3 more not as loud pops.  That poor kid jumped so high his headphones fell off his head and I thought for sure he was going to dive into the ditch before he realized it was only me!  I felt kind of bad but at the same time I almost fell off of my bike I was laughing so hard!     ;D

Scottie J
Scottie J
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Re: Type F Is BAD!
« Reply #32 on: April 27, 2014, 06:39:44 PM »
Vintage Enfield motorcycles have to live up to their Royal Oilfield moniker. Leave a lil sumpin everywhere you go. Just marking your territory, drip by drip!
2003 Classic 500 5 spd
1992 Kawasaki ZG 1200 Voyager XII
1977 Yamaha XS 360-2D (Cafe Project)