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November 27, 2014, 09:38:59 AM

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Author Topic: Front end ringing sound at top of the RPMs  (Read 775 times)

NJ Riff Raff

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Front end ringing sound at top of the RPMs
« on: April 26, 2014, 11:40:53 PM »
Hello everyone,

Almost since day one I've had a ringing sound that seems to come some where in the front end. Military Iron Barrel. It sounds like silverware rattling around against each other. It comes at the top of the RPM range just before shifting. Some rides it's more present than others. It's not my keys as it's there when using only one key. Anyone else experience this? I'd love to figure it out.
2008 Royal Enfield Military Iron Barrel

cafeman

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Re: Front end ringing sound at top of the RPMs
« Reply #1 on: April 26, 2014, 11:55:41 PM »
Could be the hex brake link that connects the two arms on the front drum rattling? Maybe the control levers? A broken front fender stay that maybe you haven't noticed up close? Front tank mount bolt loose? Something inside the casquette? Speedo mounting bracket loose? Upper fork tube cover loose? Check it all off the list.....

ace.cafe

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Re: Front end ringing sound at top of the RPMs
« Reply #2 on: April 27, 2014, 12:23:34 AM »
First, make sure it's not ping.

Then, you can check for all the loose bolts.
I'd look at the front tank mounting bolt.
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head . Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available .  AVL mods. Redditch 700/750 Twin mods. UCE kit soon.

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guss,guss

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Re: Front end ringing sound at top of the RPMs
« Reply #3 on: April 27, 2014, 01:19:07 AM »
It sounds like silverware rattling around against each other.

 at high RPM just before shifting?  could it be the timing is too advanced?
i think i am, therefore, i must be.

baird4444

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Re: Front end ringing sound at top of the RPMs
« Reply #4 on: April 27, 2014, 02:28:51 AM »
loose  pedestrian slicer??
   Broken front fender stay???
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Blltrdr

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Re: Front end ringing sound at top of the RPMs
« Reply #5 on: April 27, 2014, 02:38:58 AM »
Sometimes riding with a near empty tank can cause noises to amplify.
2003 Classic 500 5 spd
1992 Kawasaki ZG 1200 Voyager XII
1977 Yamaha XS 360-2D (Cafe Project)

NJ Riff Raff

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Re: Front end ringing sound at top of the RPMs
« Reply #6 on: April 27, 2014, 12:35:06 PM »
To be more specific about the sound it's the kind of sound you would think "that must be my 10 keys on my key chain very quickly vibrating together creating that high pitch shrill sound." However ruled that out by just using ignition key alone off of my key chain. If I was to spell the sound, it would be "shhhing." Could this be ping?

This is my set up. In terms of timing I have the power arc electronic ignition installed so I've got that set according to the power arc recommendations. I have the 30mm flat side carb with free flow exhaust. This has been a struggle to dial in but I think I'm almost there. At the moment 25 pilot, 125 main with needle in leanest position. Anything larger jet wise and I'm fouling plugs left and right. I just read something that says ping actually happens when fuel ratio is optimized and not when rich or lean but caused by other things like too high compression. See link.

http://www.peugeotlogic.com/info/info1.htm

Maybe trying going to a higher octane for slower burn?

And yes I think I need to check out every nut and bolt up front to see if that's the cause.
2008 Royal Enfield Military Iron Barrel

High On Octane

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Re: Front end ringing sound at top of the RPMs
« Reply #7 on: April 27, 2014, 12:44:05 PM »
Take a sound clip/video with your phone or something and post it so we can hear exactly what's going on.  It could be that your valves are out of adjustment, or a loose bolt, or pinging.  It's too hard to determine without anything but adjectives.  It would be a whole lot easier if we could actually HEAR the sound it's making.

Scottie J
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1958 Enfield/Indian Trailblazer

NJ Riff Raff

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Re: Front end ringing sound at top of the RPMs
« Reply #8 on: April 27, 2014, 12:45:09 PM »
Great idea. I'm going to do that today.
2008 Royal Enfield Military Iron Barrel

High On Octane

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Re: Front end ringing sound at top of the RPMs
« Reply #9 on: April 27, 2014, 12:53:52 PM »
If taking a video, make sure you pan around the entire bike (motor, trans and primary areas in particular).  You might not be able to tell by the naked ear, but a lot of times as you pan over the area that is actually making the noise, the noise will change pitch and/or get louder as the camera is directly in front of it.  This sometimes can help with the troubleshooting and help pinpoint the problem area.

Scottie J
Scottie J
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1958 Enfield/Indian Trailblazer

NJ Riff Raff

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Re: Front end ringing sound at top of the RPMs
« Reply #10 on: April 27, 2014, 07:12:15 PM »
Ok I've made a video of the sound I'm talking about. Here's the link

https://vimeo.com/93081763

password ring

There are four instances separated by a gap. I've added a title appear when the ringing happens.
2008 Royal Enfield Military Iron Barrel

Phlakaton

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Re: Front end ringing sound at top of the RPMs
« Reply #11 on: April 27, 2014, 07:43:44 PM »
It's tough to hear exactly but it sure sounds similar to the time I had one of the following - front fender stay was busted loose and vibrating - tank bolt was loose and vibrating - something bolt related loose.  I swear almost all of my mystery sounds were related to something simple.  Scourer that bike for a loose bolt before going onto killing yourself on hard stuff.  The first lesson I learned with my 08 Iron was just that.  Keep it simple.
'08 Bullet 500 Iron ES

Blltrdr

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Re: Front end ringing sound at top of the RPMs
« Reply #12 on: April 27, 2014, 07:46:32 PM »
Every time the caption ringing came up I heard none. It sounds anemic like it needs the timing advanced. Have you checked the adjustment of your valves? Also it sounds like something might be rattling in your muffler. Like I said before, make sure you have a full tank when your checking for the noise. Make sure your head steady is adjusted so there is no slop. My head steady wasn't adjusted right and I had some weird noises that after the adjustment went away.
2003 Classic 500 5 spd
1992 Kawasaki ZG 1200 Voyager XII
1977 Yamaha XS 360-2D (Cafe Project)

chumma7

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Re: Front end ringing sound at top of the RPMs
« Reply #13 on: May 09, 2014, 12:39:03 PM »
Hi,
I know from experience that it's incredibly hard to capture this noise on audio recording while riding into the wind but that tinny chainsaw noise that comes on exactly at the :26 and :37 mark is 100% pure ping. It's not the slight subtle variety that pops up once in a while when accidentally starting off in second gear from a dead stop, it's more like the 'this will melt a hole through your piston' variety.
First thing to do is check is that you've got no intake leaks and your exhaust pipe is fully sealed in the head. Next would be to richen up your main jet and/or retard timing. If you find you have to overly retard way after stock settings (.8mm before TDC or 10degrees before TDC is stock) than bump up octane rating and retime to stock.
From listening to that video it doesnt sound like it'll be too hard to cure. If you were pinging earlier in the revrange (before peak torque hit)  then you'd most definitely have to pull the head and lower compression of your piston setup (or get used to race gas) but you are clearly not pinging before torque peak. It's probably just a  main jet bump and slight timing setting away from running smooth and safe.
ACE Fireball 001

NJ Riff Raff

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Re: Front end ringing sound at top of the RPMs
« Reply #14 on: May 09, 2014, 12:58:52 PM »
Thanks so much Chumma for taking a listen and saying with certainty what is is going on. I have been taking small steps to cure it and it seems to be working. I started by filling up with high octane gas. The 30mm flat side carb has been a challenged to jet right. Right now I'm running a 38 pilot, 125 main and needle height in the middle position at close to sea level. I think I have the pilot and the needle height sorted out. What I will now call "the pinging" is much less if there at all. I really have to get into higher rpm's to hear it. I think I will try bumping up the main in one step increments.

As far as timing I have the power arc ignition installed. You set the timing right at TDC with the lighting of the LED light triggered by the metal disc spinning in the distributor cap. The power arc set up actually sparks three times. I had thought of retarding it a bit which I guess is just a case of sliding the the disc back slightly. For now I'm going to leave it be.

My 50's style exhaust has never seated super well. I actually got it ceramic coated in black and I'm thinking I may wrap the header in black exhaust wrap and try to use that to seat it better into the head. Hopefully an added benefit to also looking nice on the bike.
2008 Royal Enfield Military Iron Barrel

chumma7

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Re: Front end ringing sound at top of the RPMs
« Reply #15 on: May 09, 2014, 01:55:47 PM »
Hey man,
As long as your bike was dead on TDC when you installed that powerarc disc (and the disc didnt move when you tightened down the allen bolt) than there's no need to try to manually retard it right now.
The first priority would be to get that exhaust sealed. I make my own exhaust gaskets out of .005" sheets of copper which I purchase in bulk. You could make something similar out of aluminum foil. Wrap the end of the pipe in the foil till it fits snug into the cylinder. For larger gaps, a chopped up beer can do the job.
After sealing the head, take a few test rides. Get the bike to full operating temps and give it the guns, if it still pings than start bumping up the main jet till it smooths out. Sort out the main jet first before dialing in the other circuits. I'm not familiar with jetting on a 30mm flat slide so I cant give you numbers. Is it a mikuni tm30? or keihen variant?  The 38 pilot does seem like a large number for a pilot but I know from experience the powerarc has a tendency to require rich pilot jetting in order to maintain easy starting. If the bike doesn't feel squiggly (searches and surges) while maintaining 1/3 to 2/3 throttle and throttle response is good than your needle and needle jet are good.
Also forgot to mention, you should be running a ngk br8es plug with that powerarc and not a b8es(non resistor) or a br7es/b7es(too hot) or a bpr8es (projected tip plug). The br8eix (iridium) plug does well with powerarcs.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2014, 01:58:48 PM by chumma7 »
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Nixie

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Re: Front end ringing sound at top of the RPMs
« Reply #16 on: May 09, 2014, 04:16:26 PM »
Sorry to thread - jack but is there anything particularly bad with using a bpr7es plug on my fireball? I haven't fully tuned it up yet and I'm not using a power arc, but a trispark. Everything seems good but I don't want to damage anything! Pardon my ignorance..


chumma7

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Re: Front end ringing sound at top of the RPMs
« Reply #17 on: May 09, 2014, 05:50:03 PM »
Sorry to thread - jack but is there anything particularly bad with using a bpr7es plug on my fireball? I haven't fully tuned it up yet and I'm not using a power arc, but a trispark. Everything seems good but I don't want to damage anything! Pardon my ignorance..



Using a bpr7es plug would be potentially fatal for a fireball for 2 reasons.
The first reason being that the 7 heat range is too hot a plug for a stock bike let alone a high compression setup like the fireball. The flame front on a high compression bike burns hotter already so introducing the hotter plug creates the perfect situation for preignition and/or detonation.
The second reason being the p designation which stands for 'projected tip'. A projected tip sparks deeper into the combustion chamber, essentially advancing the flame front. It ignites the mixture sooner in the combustion chamber during the compression stroke. This alone is not desirable on a fireball setup but combined with a 7 heat range plug, it's a double whammy.
The projected bp8es/brp8es is sometimes beneficial on stock setups that arent driven at higher rpms because it allows the need for less advance creating easier starting as well as giving a low rpm boost in torque at the tradeoff of ragged higher rpm running. A br8es is better on stock setups where the entire revrange is used.
 A high compression motor naturally needs less advance to efficiently burn it's mixture so the projected tip does no good and can only do harm.
Now, I am sure you havent done any damage to your motor. You're probably still running it, doing short runs which should include short acceleration and deceleration bursts, while not holding the throttle wide open or keeping it pegged in one rpm for long. Also your rings probably haven't yet built up enough cylinder compression yet to really force a catastrophe but do swap those plugs asap before they do.
The trispark is a digital electronic ignition which requires a resister plug to function so the br8es or br8eix is what would be best.
The powerarc and the boyer micro digital are also digital setups which require resister equipped plugs. The boyer mk3 and mk4 are analog/solid state units which do well without suppressed plugs. As do points of course.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2014, 06:11:01 PM by chumma7 »
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Nixie

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Re: Front end ringing sound at top of the RPMs
« Reply #18 on: May 10, 2014, 05:38:03 AM »
Thx dude, my bike was run with bp7es before I git it by PO,  so I just got a resistive version to go with the trispark, I will sort it out!

Thanks  :-[

ace.cafe

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Re: Front end ringing sound at top of the RPMs
« Reply #19 on: May 10, 2014, 05:59:21 AM »
Thx dude, my bike was run with bp7es before I git it by PO,  so I just got a resistive version to go with the trispark, I will sort it out!

Thanks  :-[
Yes, please do.
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head . Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available .  AVL mods. Redditch 700/750 Twin mods. UCE kit soon.

Please visit my new website:
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AcePerformanceBullets/info