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Author Topic: Picked up another bike; won't stay running  (Read 538 times)

dginfw

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Picked up another bike; won't stay running
« on: May 07, 2014, 10:16:54 PM »
Hello all. I picked up another bike to crowd my garage a bit more...
I bought an '06 iron barrel 2100mi. Previous owner has done some minor mods to it (pipe and muffler with carb re-jet, PAV removed)  but had been riding it less and less...he's an older gent and said the timing needed adjustment as it was kicking back when started. (sprag went out some time ago and he removed the starter motor...not sure why)
Anyways I went to kick it over and sure enough it wanted to kick back at the bottom of the pedal travel. It backfired a few times when kicked, and when I held the throttle open a bit while kicking she finally started, but only for a few seconds.  I thought maybe the timing was so far off it was causing running problems so I adjusted (best I could) the timing using one of those tools that threads in the spark plug hole to measure piston movement. After that the kickback seems to be gone, but the most it will do (with choke) is a high idle for a few seconds before sputtering out with a loud pop. The plug looked to have some black soot on it but was not totally fouled out. I put a new plug in and it did the same thing: runs at high idle and dies a few seconds later.
Since I'm new to the bike, I'm working in uncharted territory for me. Where should I begin my plan of attack? Can I assume the carb jetting is close enough, since it was rejetted when the PO put the new pipe and muffler on it and he'd been riding it that way for years? Elevation and climate for his town and mine are reasonably close...
My intial plan was to ride it and tinker with it until winter set in then (funds permitting) start doing the internal work for a Fireball or Clubman set-up.

EDIT: the metal panniers will be sold as they are not my style. PM if interested
Dave in TX:   '01  W650
                    '14 Continental GT
                    '06 Iron Barrel Bullet

ace.cafe

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Re: Picked up another bike; won't stay running
« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2014, 10:51:47 PM »
Congrats!

First thing is that the choke(enrichener) lever is sort of confusing.
The enrichener is "on" when the lever is down flat, and it is "off" when the lever is up on an angle nearest the tank. This is opposite of the way most people think it should be, so I always mention it.

The carb is almost never jetted or tuned correctly, so you'll want to get it off and have a look at what is in there. Also, while it's off, Have a good look at the rubber manifold connector hose between the carb and the head. It will be likely to have cracks or rips in it, giving air leaks. Use 1.25" I.D. radiator hose to replace it if needed. The factory rubber hose is crap.
Make sure that there is no water in the gas.
Also, check for exhaust leaks at the head joint.
Check/adjust the pushrods to zero clearance when dead cold. Spins by fingers, but no up/down play.

Once you get it running enough to idle, slightly loosen one of the banjo fittings on the head that feed oil to the rockers. Make sure that oil comes leaking out of it when you crack it loose. With some bad kickbacks known to have happened, this can break the teeth off the oil pump drive spindle, and starve the engine of oil. So, make sure that oil is getting pumped, and checking at a banjo fitting is easy. Then tighten it right back up once you verify oil flow. Don't overtighten, just snug it back up till it's not leaking oil anymore, and wipe it off.

Go over the whole bike carefully, to be sure that something is not loose or dangerous. Always do this with a new bike. If you have questions about anything, just ask. We're here.

« Last Edit: May 07, 2014, 10:55:09 PM by ace.cafe »
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head . Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available .  AVL mods. Redditch 700/750 Twin mods. UCE kit soon.

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baird4444

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Re: Picked up another bike; won't stay running
« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2014, 10:57:56 PM »
Has it been sitting a long time?
1st thing I'd do is change the fuel filter. If it doesen't have one
then prolly clean and blow out carb.

2nd check rubber carb mount for cracking. easy replacement
with a section of radiator hose that will last years.

if you reset the timing, recheck your points.
start with the easy and don't overlook the obvious.
           - Mike
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 but tomorrow I shall be sober and you will still be ugly'
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dginfw

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Re: Picked up another bike; won't stay running
« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2014, 11:38:50 PM »
First thing is that the choke(enrichener) lever is sort of confusing.
The enrichener is "on" when the lever is down flat, and it is "off" when the lever is up on an angle nearest the tank. This is opposite of the way most people think it should be, so I always mention it.

Ahh. That is opposite of what I was doing. I pushed the lever down so that it pulled the pin up from the carb....but the lever seems to want to stay in the down/flat position, almost as if it was spring loaded. It doesn't seem to want to stay in the angled position. Plus there is a second, smaller flat arm that is right under the lever marked 'choke'...it doesn't seem to do much but it does move freely. Is that normal?
Dave in TX:   '01  W650
                    '14 Continental GT
                    '06 Iron Barrel Bullet

Mr.Mazza

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Re: Picked up another bike; won't stay running
« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2014, 11:43:37 PM »
Ahh. That is opposite of what I was doing. I pushed the lever down so that it pulled the pin up from the carb....but the lever seems to want to stay in the down/flat position, almost as if it was spring loaded. It doesn't seem to want to stay in the angled position. Plus there is a second, smaller flat arm that is right under the lever marked 'choke'...it doesn't seem to do much but it does move freely. Is that normal?

Not sure about that other lever but my choke had a habit of returning to on whilst traveling!
Try tightening that big ol' slotted screw in the middle, it should only need half to a full turn, it just puts a little more resistance on the cable so it holds position.
Lizzy - 07 500 Deluxe ES - Red and chrome

ace.cafe

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Re: Picked up another bike; won't stay running
« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2014, 11:48:54 PM »
Ahh. That is opposite of what I was doing. I pushed the lever down so that it pulled the pin up from the carb....but the lever seems to want to stay in the down/flat position, almost as if it was spring loaded. It doesn't seem to want to stay in the angled position. Plus there is a second, smaller flat arm that is right under the lever marked 'choke'...it doesn't seem to do much but it does move freely. Is that normal?
I just went out and looked at a Mikarb. I don't use them much anymore.
Anyway, when the plunger is up, the enrichener is on.
That little flat arm under the choke lever is the flat spring that holds the choke lever in the positions you put it in. That's all it does. You can adjust it to have the effect on the lever that you need, by tweaking it until it does what you want.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2014, 11:53:26 PM by ace.cafe »
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head . Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available .  AVL mods. Redditch 700/750 Twin mods. UCE kit soon.

Please visit my new website:
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Chuck D

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Re: Picked up another bike; won't stay running
« Reply #6 on: May 08, 2014, 03:40:10 AM »
She's a pretty thing. Best of luck!
2006 Bullet Sixty-5 w/ Ace "Fireball 535" Kit (#10)
Ace "GP" head in the works.

'76 Honda CB550Four K(sold)


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dginfw

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Re: Picked up another bike; won't stay running + other issues
« Reply #7 on: May 08, 2014, 04:11:01 AM »
This evening's findings: throttle was staying stuck open.
I knew it felt stiff and I had to help it close -I thought "looks like I need to order a new cable"...but when I took the carb off to clean the jets I saw that even when I pushed the throttle closed the slide in the carb stayed in the open position. That would explain the extremely high idle!
Once I cleaned the carb, lubed the cable, and lubed the the throttle inside the housing, the throttle snapped back like it should. Still gotta replace the fuel line (its very brittle and had a split) and will order a spare cable, but hopefully that will take care of the first step in this bike's saga.

I also found out that oil is leaking a bit from where the starter was removed. Looks like the PO used a round piece of metal and tape to seal up the hole where the starter was....or at least TRIED to seal the starter opening....lol.   Doesn't someone sell a blanking plate to go in the opening for people who removed the starter? Coulda swore I saw that once...
I know the right way is to replace the side cover with a KS part -and I will get there- but thats a good chunk of change so I need a fix in the meantime.

thanks all
Dave in TX:   '01  W650
                    '14 Continental GT
                    '06 Iron Barrel Bullet

Mr.Mazza

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Re: Picked up another bike; won't stay running
« Reply #8 on: May 08, 2014, 09:10:21 AM »
Hitchcocks sell starter motor blanking plugs or a kit to install a non es primary cover.
Lizzy - 07 500 Deluxe ES - Red and chrome

dginfw

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Re: Picked up another bike; won't stay running
« Reply #9 on: May 08, 2014, 08:19:27 PM »
Hitchcocks sell starter motor blanking plugs or a kit to install a non es primary cover.

Thank you. I looked on Nfield Gear's accessories and couldn't find the blanking plug; I must have overlooked it on Hitchcock's site. I will swap out primary covers eventually but the plug will work for now.
Dave in TX:   '01  W650
                    '14 Continental GT
                    '06 Iron Barrel Bullet

dginfw

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Re: Picked up another bike; won't stay running
« Reply #10 on: May 09, 2014, 07:13:37 PM »
Now that the throttle springs back on its own, I went to try to start it today. With choke on, it wouldn't start, but if I cracked the throttle open a bit, it fired right up...but if I took my hand off the throttle it dies with a loud bang and a puff of smoke out of the air filter. The previous owner can't remember what sizes were used when the carb was rejetted.
From what I've read, the backfire thru the carb could be a lean condition caused by leaing intake, but a visual inspection shows the intake hose to be in good shape; looks like it was replaced at some point. 
Can someone point me in the right direction? I'd like to get it running as is rather than break down and order the flatslide carb as funds are a little tight right now....
thanks
Dave in TX:   '01  W650
                    '14 Continental GT
                    '06 Iron Barrel Bullet

ace.cafe

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Re: Picked up another bike; won't stay running
« Reply #11 on: May 09, 2014, 07:19:37 PM »
I would take the carb off, remove the jets, clean it out real well in all the little orifices, and re-jet appropriately.
Since it appears that you have what looks like a free flow exhaust, the stock jets won't be adequate at all. Also, if it has the air filter in that rectangular airbox, then that is too restrictive of a filter.

If you are near sea level, you'll want a 27.5 pilot and 127.5 main for starters, and you'll be wanting a P2 needle jet($30), and some needle adjustments toward the richer side when you do plug chops. Sometimes they even need a 2.5 throttle slide, which is like $40. This adds up to some money spent on a very marginal carburetor.

Knowing what I learned since I first got my Bullet, and assuming the keeping the bike is intended, I would recommend forgetting about the Mikarb. Just take it off, and put on a Mikuni TM32 with our manifold and a short piece of 1.5" I.D. radiator hose, and jet it like the rest of us have them. You can get one for under $150, and the jets are less than 5 bucks for most of them. Then you have a real carb, and can skip all the Mikarb gyrations trying to make it work decently, and so you can put that fifty bucks or more towared the new TM32, and don't waste it on the Mikarb.
My 2 cents.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2014, 07:28:36 PM by ace.cafe »
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head . Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available .  AVL mods. Redditch 700/750 Twin mods. UCE kit soon.

Please visit my new website:
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AcePerformanceBullets/info

dginfw

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Re: Picked up another bike; won't stay running
« Reply #12 on: May 09, 2014, 07:30:11 PM »
I would take the carb off, remove the jets, clean it out real well in all the little orifices, and re-jet appropriately.
I've already taken it off and soaked the jets in carb cleaner; they look to be clear with no residue clogging them. I couldn't see any markings indicating what size they were, but as small as they I could have missed it.
Any idea what sizes would get me in the ballpark? Engine is stock internally, with the "classic exhaust system" from our host and a K&N filter. (previous owner had the stock airbox mounted; it was stuffed with what looked like a big hunk of scrubbing pad!)
Dave in TX:   '01  W650
                    '14 Continental GT
                    '06 Iron Barrel Bullet

ace.cafe

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Re: Picked up another bike; won't stay running
« Reply #13 on: May 09, 2014, 07:36:31 PM »
I've already taken it off and soaked the jets in carb cleaner; they look to be clear with no residue clogging them. I couldn't see any markings indicating what size they were, but as small as they I could have missed it.
Any idea what sizes would get me in the ballpark? Engine is stock internally, with the "classic exhaust system" from our host and a K&N filter. (previous owner had the stock airbox mounted; it was stuffed with what looked like a big hunk of scrubbing pad!)

Starting point for jetting a Mikarb 28 with the shorty silencer like you have would be
27.5 pilot
127.5 main
P2 needle jet.
Needle either all the way up, or in the groove next to all the way up.

Assuming somewhere between sea level and 1000' elevation.

We'll take on the issues of the exhaust hot tube and the air filter later.
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head . Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available .  AVL mods. Redditch 700/750 Twin mods. UCE kit soon.

Please visit my new website:
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AcePerformanceBullets/info

dginfw

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Re: Picked up another bike; won't stay running
« Reply #14 on: May 09, 2014, 11:25:53 PM »
Thanks Tom.
After I clicked the 'confirm order' button I went back in the garage and remembered something I had read earlier...I turned in the air screw all the way then backed it out about 1.5 turns and kicked it over and it fired off without choke, but at a very low idle. I turned the idle screw in and raised it some to where it will fire off and hold idle now.
I found it odd because I hadn't touched the air screw, only the idle adjustment screw -and at first I had it backwards, thinking turning it OUT raised the idle. Thats what I get for assuming, LOL. Now I know

Now I'm on to sorting a few other issues. While it was idling I checked a couple things. It does has oil flowing to the heads (yay!) but the battery voltage  at idle was at 12.4 & ammeter barely moving. Reving the throttle a bit raised it to 12.9, so I'm gonna have to check the output on the alternator. Plus I noticed one of the pilot light bulbs was burned out as well as the illumination for the speedometer. Also, if I need to buy an alternator in the future, since I am eliminating the electric start altogether, can I use a K/S alternator or is there a physical size/mounting difference between the KS and ES units?
« Last Edit: May 10, 2014, 01:12:28 AM by dginfw »
Dave in TX:   '01  W650
                    '14 Continental GT
                    '06 Iron Barrel Bullet