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Author Topic: Looks Like I Blew My Bat Tree  (Read 727 times)

tooseevee

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Looks Like I Blew My Bat Tree
« on: August 16, 2014, 05:19:49 PM »
       Looks like I have ruined my little kick only AGM battery (picture below).

        I got really pissed the other day because I couldn't kick my '08 to life after it had been starting so good previously. I tried it three times over an hour; each time kicking it at least 6 times which totally kills me.

         So finally I tried the dreaded electric start. Nothing but clicks. Aha!

         Checked it: 12.1V. Put it on charge overnight at 2 Amps with my regular battery charger that I've had for quite a few years. Mistake I guess. The battery was very hot, tested at 13.8V & the bike still would not kickstart even though the headlight, pilots & directionals operated bright as hell the whole time the directionals flashed.

         Tried the electric start. Nothing but clicks.

          I guess I've ruined the battery. PS: I never ride at night, never use the headlight & always use the kicker. I guess I just don't ride it far enough any one time to keep the battery up.

           Comments?

       
« Last Edit: August 16, 2014, 05:22:25 PM by tooseevee »
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Re: Looks Like I Blew My Bat Tree
« Reply #1 on: August 16, 2014, 05:26:45 PM »
Duralast and Autocraft are some of the crappiest motorcycle batteries I've had to deal with.  They are allegedly made by Johnson Controls, but I'm pretty sure they are made in China or the likes.  Go with a Batteries Plus battery.  They are made by Deka and have a 1 year warranty.  About the same price as those junk AutoZone and Advance batteries.

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azcatfan

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Re: Looks Like I Blew My Bat Tree
« Reply #2 on: August 16, 2014, 05:43:53 PM »
I've had pretty good luck with Autozone batteries myself over the course of 20 or so years.  The only batteries I've had fail me prematurely were from battery plus, and they were dicks when it came to backing the sale just 5 days after purchase.

2CV, you had mentioned in other posts that you only get 10 miles or so in to a ride before fatigue sends you back home.  It could well be your rides aren't long enough to put the charge up.  Also, just a thought, could the old  battery charger be starting to fritz?
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Re: Looks Like I Blew My Bat Tree
« Reply #3 on: August 16, 2014, 05:59:41 PM »
I've had pretty good luck with Autozone batteries myself over the course of 20 or so years.  The only batteries I've had fail me prematurely were from battery plus, and they were dicks when it came to backing the sale just 5 days after purchase........

Were these car batteries or bike batteries?  When was this?  Deka makes all of Batteries Plus's batteries now, and Dekas are great batteries.   I worked at AutoZone for a year and at Advance for 2 years and I cannot count how many pissed off customers I've had over the motorcycle batteries.  They only have a 90 day warranty they seem to like to fail within a year.  I personally have killed two BS4LBS batteries and one BS5LBS from Advance since I got the Blackhawk on the road.  Granted I did have some electrical problems but I never road far or for long and always kept them fully charged after every ride with the battery tender.  After the 3rd battery I went with a Batteries Plus BS5LBS AGM for $45.

My bike hasn't run in a month and it was another month before that time.  I just checked the battery voltage and it is still holding at 12.6V.  For whatever that is worth.

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Re: Looks Like I Blew My Bat Tree
« Reply #4 on: August 16, 2014, 06:15:17 PM »
This is both car and bike batteries, and mostly for off-road dirt bikes.  Duralast haven't let me down unless I messed them up (by neglecting them) or they were already way past their prime.  Dirt bikes that would get put away for months at a time, then abused when they were taken out with heat and vibration.

It is completely subjective and not worth arguing over everybody's favorite brand of battery.  If 2CV had a decent battery going in to this current situation and now doesn't, it is worth it to look a little past the name brand on the battery as the root cause is all I'm saying.   8)
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Re: Looks Like I Blew My Bat Tree
« Reply #5 on: August 16, 2014, 06:48:53 PM »
This is both car and bike batteries, and mostly for off-road dirt bikes.  Duralast haven't let me down unless I messed them up (by neglecting them) or they were already way past their prime.  Dirt bikes that would get put away for months at a time, then abused when they were taken out with heat and vibration.

It is completely subjective and not worth arguing over everybody's favorite brand of battery.  If 2CV had a decent battery going in to this current situation and now doesn't, it is worth it to look a little past the name brand on the battery as the root cause is all I'm saying.   8)

I wasn't trying to argue, I was just curious what your experience was.  And I wasn't trying to say that all Advance and AutoZone batteries are junk either, just I personally have seen a high failure rate.  That's all.
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tooseevee

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Re: Looks Like I Blew My Bat Tree
« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2014, 08:01:05 PM »
      Don't fight, boys  :) :) ;) ;)

       I, too, hate discussions over "My shit's better than your shit". Most brand trashing is anecdotal. I might buy an obvious piece of shit & keep it doing what it's supposed to do for years because of how I treat stuff & maintain it. Another person might buy the best of the best & fuck it up in a week. Most people buy Chinese crap nowadays & don't know the difference. Quality doesn't have the same meaning it used to.

        I've had great luck with Yuasa batteries in kick only harleys for many years. Other guys won't touch them with somebody else's 10 foot pole.

         The one battery I would rave about if I was to rave about batteries would be Interstate. I'm gonna try to track down an Interstate AGM of the teeny size I need.

           Do I need to buy a special battery tender for AGM batteries?

            PS: My standard charger is just fine & is only a few years old. It has a 6V circuit & two 12V circuits; a 2 amp & a 6 amp. I used the 2 amp only on this little AGM. It has what seems to be a pretty reliable charge meter that registers from low to 100%. What I DON't know is if it shuts off. It has worked fine the few times I've used it on cars.
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Re: Looks Like I Blew My Bat Tree
« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2014, 08:14:37 PM »
Tooseevee,

I wouldn't have thought that a small battery would have the clout (sorry, Cold Cranking Amps) to power the electric starter, which is maybe why you're only getting clicking noises. The factory upped the capacity the 14AH on the E/S AVL for a reason! If your battery, hot or not, has the power to run all the lights brightly there should be more than enough for the ignition, which makes me wonder if a connection has come loose in the ignition circuit or if there's a fuse blown. If you haven't already done so check for a fuse holder with the brown wire that goes to the TCI box.

Shame it's not a small job the machine the AVL right side crankcase for a full set of timing gears and a magneto.

Meanwhile, I have had a Motobatt 14AH on my Electra-X the last two years, it has held up very nicely, but other brands are available!

Regards,

A.

tooseevee

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Re: Looks Like I Blew My Bat Tree
« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2014, 09:30:52 PM »
Tooseevee,

I wouldn't have thought that a small battery would have the clout (sorry, Cold Cranking Amps) to power the electric starter, which is maybe why you're only getting clicking noises. The factory upped the capacity the 14AH on the E/S AVL for a reason! If your battery, hot or not, has the power to run all the lights brightly there should be more than enough for the ignition, which makes me wonder if a connection has come loose in the ignition circuit or if there's a fuse blown. If you haven't already done so check for a fuse holder with the brown wire that goes to the TCI box.

Shame it's not a small job the machine the AVL right side crankcase for a full set of timing gears and a magneto.

Meanwhile, I have had a Motobatt 14AH on my Electra-X the last two years, it has held up very nicely, but other brands are available!

Regards,

A.

          I didn't just install this small battery yesterday & I don't have any loose connections or blown fuses. I installed it to get rid of the huge battery, the tray & that stupid hard-to-lock cover I don't need or want because I don't use the electric starter.

            The factory upped the battery in an attempt to keep the starter (an electric bodge on AVLs) from blowing up the sprag clutch too soon. That's the only thing the starter on an AVL is good for.

          Yes. The battery will start the engine 3 or 4 times when it's up to par. I know. I tested it when I first installed it. I don't want it to power the starter except in traffic if I kill the engine & need an instant start to keep from getting run over. I kick start the bike exclusively.

           I believe I've damaged the battery somehow (which I said in the beginning) charging it wrong. AGM batteries are new to me (I'm a dinosaur who's been riding since the '50s). I'll do my homework this time & it WON't happen again.
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ERC

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Re: Looks Like I Blew My Bat Tree
« Reply #9 on: August 16, 2014, 09:45:04 PM »
      Don't fight, boys  :) :) ;) ;)

       I, too, hate discussions over "My shit's better than your shit". Most brand trashing is anecdotal. I might buy an obvious piece of shit & keep it doing what it's supposed to do for years because of how I treat stuff & maintain it. Another person might buy the best of the best & fuck it up in a week. Most people buy Chinese crap nowadays & don't know the difference. Quality doesn't have the same meaning it used to.

        I've had great luck with Yuasa batteries in kick only harleys for many years. Other guys won't touch them with somebody else's 10 foot pole.

         The one battery I would rave about if I was to rave about batteries would be Interstate. I'm gonna try to track down an Interstate AGM of the teeny size I need.

           Do I need to buy a special battery tender for AGM batteries?

            PS: My standard charger is just fine & is only a few years old. It has a 6V circuit & two 12V circuits; a 2 amp & a 6 amp. I used the 2 amp only on this little AGM. It has what seems to be a pretty reliable charge meter that registers from low to 100%. What I DON't know is if it shuts off. It has worked fine the few times I've used it on cars.
You can use any charger that won't put more than 14.5 volts in it and not get it to hot. You don't need a special charger.  ERC
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tooseevee

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Re: Looks Like I Blew My Bat Tree
« Reply #10 on: August 17, 2014, 12:26:06 AM »
You can use any charger that won't put more than 14.5 volts in it and not get it to hot. You don't need a special charger.  ERC

           Well, ERC, my friend, the empirical evidence seems to show that it was my charger at fault; got it too hot.

            I set my charger on 2 amps & after a number of hours the battery was quite hot. Looking online I've read a lot of articles that say once they get hot they won't hold a charge any more.

             I'm kinda thinking now my charger never shut off at full charge & that I should never have left it overnight.

             All my fault, not the battery's.  Found an Interstate (Cycle-Tron) AGM for $60. It's the only way to prove this one is shot. And I will initial charge it by the book.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2014, 12:29:33 AM by tooseevee »
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Re: Looks Like I Blew My Bat Tree
« Reply #11 on: August 17, 2014, 02:45:49 AM »
Just for the record most AGM batteries like a 1.5 amp charge.  Not sure if 2 amp is that big of a difference or not.  I personally have been using a Schumacher Maintenance Free 1.5 amp charger specifically for small engine batteries for the last 4 or 5 years.  You can pick one up Wally World or Advance or just about anywhere for $30 or less.

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azcatfan

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Re: Looks Like I Blew My Bat Tree
« Reply #12 on: August 17, 2014, 02:49:16 AM »
Just for the record most AGM batteries like a 1.5 amp charge.  Not sure if 2 amp is that big of a difference or not.  I personally have been using a Schumacher Maintenance Free 1.5 amp charger specifically for small engine batteries for the last 4 or 5 years.  You can pick one up Wally World or Advance or just about anywhere for $30 or less.

Scottie J

All true, and you could get an auto-off design that runs between .750-1.5amp and turns off when fully charged at Harbor Freight for less than $30 as well if one is near by.
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Re: Looks Like I Blew My Bat Tree
« Reply #13 on: August 17, 2014, 02:52:12 AM »
That's how the charger I use works.  Once the battery is fully charged it goes into maintenance mode and turns itself on and off as needed.
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tooseevee

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Re: Looks Like I Blew My Bat Tree
« Reply #14 on: August 17, 2014, 12:18:01 PM »
    Thanks all you guys; High, ERC & AzCat.

     I hardly ever don't do my homework. I usually OVERdo it. But I really screwed up using my regular car battery charger on this little AGM overnight.

       I've searched the right chargers out this time & will settle on one & order it today. It should be here around the same time as the new battery. I'm gonna hardwire the plug into the bike.
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Re: Looks Like I Blew My Bat Tree
« Reply #15 on: August 17, 2014, 01:18:09 PM »
    Thanks all you guys; High, ERC & AzCat.

     I hardly ever don't do my homework. I usually OVERdo it. But I really screwed up using my regular car battery charger on this little AGM overnight.

       I've searched the right chargers out this time & will settle on one & order it today. It should be here around the same time as the new battery. I'm gonna hardwire the plug into the bike.

The battery adapter wire is a cool feature for these newer chargers.  I've used that wire and almost all of my battery operated bikes.  There's not much you need to do for it either.  It already has ring terminals crimped on, you just hook it up to the battery the same time you are connecting you main battery leads o the battery.  Then you just find a safe place to hide the wire so it's not getting tangled with anything.  It is very handy for people like yourself who don't ride on a regular basis.  Literally takes 30 seconds to hook up the charger.

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tooseevee

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Re: Looks Like I Blew My Bat Tree
« Reply #16 on: August 17, 2014, 01:44:14 PM »
The battery adapter wire is a cool feature for these newer chargers.  I've used that wire and almost all of my battery operated bikes.  There's not much you need to do for it either.  It already has ring terminals crimped on, you just hook it up to the battery the same time you are connecting you main battery leads o the battery.  Then you just find a safe place to hide the wire so it's not getting tangled with anything.  It is very handy for people like yourself who don't ride on a regular basis.  Literally takes 30 seconds to hook up the charger.

Scottie J

         That's the kind I'll get.

          Batteries are sort of a mystery sometimes ??? >:( I went down a while ago & that battery has held 12.89V overnight. Just shows you voltage means nothing. It's the amps that get you there.
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Re: Looks Like I Blew My Bat Tree
« Reply #17 on: August 17, 2014, 01:49:24 PM »
         That's the kind I'll get.

          Batteries are sort of a mystery sometimes ??? >:( I went down a while ago & that battery has held 12.89V overnight. Just shows you voltage means nothing. It's the amps that get you there.

You are absolutely right about that!  The last Advance battery that failed on me failed so bad that I thought my alternator had failed again and left me stranded out in the country.  Removed the battery to bring it home and charge it.  After a 5 hour charge, the battery said it was about 12.9v, hooked up a single 1157 bulb and the voltage started jumping everywhere from 0v-7.5v.  That was a new one for me.
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Re: Looks Like I Blew My Bat Tree
« Reply #18 on: August 25, 2014, 03:40:43 PM »
    Thanks all you guys; High, ERC & AzCat.

     I hardly ever don't do my homework. I usually OVERdo it. But I really screwed up using my regular car battery charger on this little AGM overnight.

       I've searched the right chargers out this time & will settle on one & order it today. It should be here around the same time as the new battery. I'm gonna hardwire the plug into the bike.

            Just an update so you won't think I died (I CAN't die. The bike's not running  ;) )

             I ordered the battery (Interstate) & the charger on the 17th. The battery was here in a couple days. No charger yet. I'm hoping today. The battery has a permanent sticker on it telling you exactly how to charge it very slowly, slowly or quickly. The initial charge includes another 24 hours on float after the light turns green. 

             
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Re: Looks Like I Blew My Bat Tree
« Reply #19 on: August 25, 2014, 04:09:27 PM »
Just to add to the battery discussion: My Motobatt AGM also crapped on me , a couple of weeks ago. It lasted less than 3 years, and not many miles. I charged it but it would not hold charge. I read some user reviews on Amazon regarding the Motobatt. A couple of posters commented that once it died on them it was impossible to recharge. However, if maintained on a trickle charger it worked fine and lasted a good time. YMMV.

I have a Scorpio LiFePO4 battery now. Very Very light, and works well. 

tooseevee

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Re: Looks Like I Blew My Bat Tree
« Reply #20 on: August 25, 2014, 04:56:58 PM »
I charged it but it would not hold charge. I read some user reviews on Amazon regarding the Motobatt. A couple of posters commented that once it died on them it was impossible to recharge. However, if maintained on a trickle charger it worked fine and lasted a good time. YMMV.


          This is also what the general consensus seems to be from all the reading I've done about AGMs.

           I'm still going to give the old battery a try before a shitcan it. I hooked a light up to it & drained it down to dead zero. After I charge the new one with my new magic charger, I'm gonna hook it up to the old one & see what happens.  All indications from what I've read say it ain't gonna work & it will never hold a charge again for any length of time.
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Re: Looks Like I Blew My Bat Tree
« Reply #21 on: August 27, 2014, 04:14:06 PM »
    My "Genius" arrived (finally) & the new Interstate is all charged plus an additional 24 hour float as reeko mended.

    Installed the battery a while ago with the charger pigtails & since I've had a little bit of a problem getting the bitchy little mixture screw right for kick starting, here's what I thought I'd try this time (I had previously changed to the #27.5 Pilot from the #30 because with the #30 the mixture screw wanted to be three turns out):

     I'm going to start at 1 1/2 turns out on the mixture screw & go through a normal starting procedure. If I get nothing I'm going to wait an hour each time coming another 1/4 turn out each time.
       
      Does that sound shmart? Any other ideas?

      PS: I have all the time in the world   ;) All I have is time.

       
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Re: Looks Like I Blew My Bat Tree
« Reply #22 on: August 27, 2014, 04:37:04 PM »
That's okay for a basic directional adjustment, but sometimes it might need smaller increments of adjustment to zero it in.

And also, the exact amount of screw adjustment may change with the varying temps, so it will always be changing with enough change in temps.

I find that sometimes trying to get too perfect will be frustrating because the weather changes almost daily, especially in spring and fall.
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Re: Looks Like I Blew My Bat Tree
« Reply #23 on: August 27, 2014, 04:44:17 PM »
Quote
     I'm going to start at 1 1/2 turns out on the mixture screw & go through a normal starting procedure. If I get nothing I'm going to wait an hour each time coming another 1/4 turn out each time.

Same here. It got hot and humid. Funny enough, to kick it I had to turn IN a 1/4 of a turn richening it. I left it and road off. Plug is darker but it feels fine.
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tooseevee

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Re: Looks Like I Blew My Bat Tree
« Reply #24 on: August 27, 2014, 05:16:03 PM »
That's okay for a basic directional adjustment, but sometimes it might need smaller increments of adjustment to zero it in.

And also, the exact amount of screw adjustment may change with the varying temps, so it will always be changing with enough change in temps.

I find that sometimes trying to get too perfect will be frustrating because the weather changes almost daily, especially in spring and fall.

            Yup. I realize all that. What I should have said was I'll turn out 1/4 of a turn each time until it kick starts in two or three kicks which is what it SHould do. No reason it shouldn't. THEN I'll start micro-tuning the mixture after a good run down the road.

              I'm praying it was the dead (or close to dead) battery that kept it from starting previously. If it turns out giving me shit about kick starting again this time (with a brand new 100% battery) I'm gonna get sick of it real quick.
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Re: Looks Like I Blew My Bat Tree
« Reply #25 on: August 27, 2014, 05:52:15 PM »
            Yup. I realize all that. What I should have said was I'll turn out 1/4 of a turn each time until it kick starts in two or three kicks which is what it SHould do. No reason it shouldn't. THEN I'll start micro-tuning the mixture after a good run down the road.

              I'm praying it was the dead (or close to dead) battery that kept it from starting previously. If it turns out giving me shit about kick starting again this time (with a brand new 100% battery) I'm gonna get sick of it real quick.

If it was good enough before the dead battery, it will be good now.
Maybe a little adjustment for the small change in weather since that time.
Should be good to go.
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High On Octane

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Re: Looks Like I Blew My Bat Tree
« Reply #26 on: August 28, 2014, 02:47:03 AM »
I don't think weather changes prevented it from not starting before, more than likely the dead battery.  Temperature would have to change a good 20-25*F before the air would start causing it to not start.  Or at least that is what I observed all those years riding in Wisconsin.  If you can't get it to at least start with the new set up you may need to change the needle position again.  Maybe not, but maybe.  But you have to got to be really close.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2014, 03:58:50 AM by High On Octane »
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Adrian II

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Re: Looks Like I Blew My Bat Tree
« Reply #27 on: August 28, 2014, 10:48:28 AM »
Hope it all comes together for at last. If you still can't get the Mikuni to play ball, I have a spare Dell'Orto PHF32 pumper carb complete with the ally mounting flange (manifold?) for the AVL sitting idle in the garage. About time the thing earned its keep again, let me know if you're interested.

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A.

tooseevee

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Re: Looks Like I Blew My Bat Tree
« Reply #28 on: August 29, 2014, 01:46:35 PM »
Hope it all comes together for at last. If you still can't get the Mikuni to play ball, I have a spare Dell'Orto PHF32 pumper carb complete with the ally mounting flange (manifold?) for the AVL sitting idle in the garage. About time the thing earned its keep again, let me know if you're interested.
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A.

            Thanks, Adrian, but I can't start all over again with something totally different & unfamiliar. I won't live long enough. I'm about at the end of my rope getting to that sweet spot where I can reliably kick start this black son of a bitch. It's become very painful on top of the pain I've become used to my whole life (that has made me the stubborn bastard that I am) & I have gone through EVERY combination of EVERYTHING I've learned from the past 77 years & what I've learned here from you guys here on the forum.

        I just tried the most recent experiment of dozens a few minutes ago; I tried kicking it this time (sitting overnight cold) with the enrichener pulled for every kick & the key on the whole time instead of just for one or two kicks with the key off. 6 nice clean full kicks later NOTHING. Again! Not a HINT of trying to start. And again I'll go down when I recover & pull the plug & see if it's wet & sit & decide what to try next..

         It just reFUSes to kick start.

        I may end up putting all that battery rack crap back on & going back to the big battery & using the ES 'til the sprag blows up & then selling it to one of you guys for $200

         I just don't know what to do next.............................. I just won't have a bike I can't kick start.

         Happy Labor Day everybody (whatever THAT means). 
« Last Edit: August 29, 2014, 01:49:26 PM by tooseevee »
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High On Octane

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Re: Looks Like I Blew My Bat Tree
« Reply #29 on: August 29, 2014, 02:13:26 PM »
I hate to sound redundant but did you check the ignition fuse?  I've had mine randomly blow before.  I know it's not likely but might be worth taking a peek.
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ace.cafe

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Re: Looks Like I Blew My Bat Tree
« Reply #30 on: August 29, 2014, 02:25:18 PM »
I hate to sound redundant but did you check the ignition fuse?  I've had mine randomly blow before.  I know it's not likely but might be worth taking a peek.
Could be electrical.
If the carb was working 1-2 kicks before, it should still be close now.
Or maybe water in the gas?
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Re: Looks Like I Blew My Bat Tree
« Reply #31 on: August 29, 2014, 03:50:26 PM »
I saw that you said you checked the plug... It's the only thing I can think of as every time my AVL has failed to start, it's been either the plug or my extremely sensitive kill switch.  I'd throw a fresh one in for peace of mind.
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tooseevee

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Re: Looks Like I Blew My Bat Tree
« Reply #32 on: August 29, 2014, 05:43:30 PM »
I hate to sound redundant but did you check the ignition fuse?  I've had mine randomly blow before.  I know it's not likely but might be worth taking a peek.

            No. It's not! a spark problem. The plug is firing. I've had it running at various times throughout this whole dialing in process.

             It just will NOT kick start. The only times I've been able to kick start it have been to kick it right after I've had it warmed up after starting it with the @#%$^%^% electric start.

             Later today if I can stand going down there again I'm going back to the #30 Pilot Jet. I've been everywhere from 1/2 turn out to two full turns out on the mixture screw with this #27.5 & trying many different starting techniques at every 1/4 turn & still NG. Maybe with the custom head work that this engine has & the 9.8:1 it just does not WANT the 27.5 pilot.

           If it reverts right back to starting well with the #30 (even at 3 turns out) then I'll know that the #27.5 was just a mistake. It's the 3 turns out with the #30 that made me want to try the smaller pilot.   
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azcatfan

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Re: Looks Like I Blew My Bat Tree
« Reply #33 on: August 29, 2014, 09:18:49 PM »
2CV, next to my bike, I like yours the most on this forum, I want to see you get it running the way you want!  You are so close, if I could lend you my leg I'd do it.

The jetting can be such a finicky thing.  For what it's worth, on my relatively stock bike with stock Micarb I'm running the 27.5.  I figure with your mods and greater demand for fuel that the 30 might be just what the bike wants.

Good luck!  :D
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Re: Looks Like I Blew My Bat Tree
« Reply #34 on: August 29, 2014, 10:59:53 PM »
You've got to remember that when you modify something, then you have to screw with it a lot sometimes to get it to where you want it.  ERC
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Re: Looks Like I Blew My Bat Tree
« Reply #35 on: September 01, 2014, 01:57:26 AM »
Any luck 2CV?  How's the 30 treating you?
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tooseevee

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Re: Looks Like I Blew My Bat Tree
« Reply #36 on: September 01, 2014, 06:00:00 PM »
Any luck 2CV?  How's the 30 treating you?

            It's almost 2 o'clock here & I've just returned from (at last) a 16 mile ride. The first in many, many weeks & (at last) it was totally successful & marvelous. This engine is Sooo nice now.

             I finally solved the problem late yesterday afternoon & spent the rest of the evening (until 10PM) proving to myself that I was right in my analysis (finally). I spent the morning sorting things out, refilling the gas tank & convincing myself that I could trust it to go out among 'em on Labor Day (the traffic is otherworldly) & not leave me dead in a ditch.

              I'm not going to write the saga now because it will kill my neck & I've got to eat something. The English muffin at 6:30 didn't last long. All I'll say for now is it was NOT a jetting problem nor was it an electrical problem.

              And thanks for the support throughout this whole nightmare trouble-shooting process.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2014, 06:02:47 PM by tooseevee »
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Adrian II

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Re: Looks Like I Blew My Bat Tree
« Reply #37 on: September 01, 2014, 07:19:49 PM »
The news we all wanted to hear, congratulations for Getting It Fixed!  8)

Look forward to the saga when you're good and ready to tell.

Regards,

A.

ace.cafe

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Re: Looks Like I Blew My Bat Tree
« Reply #38 on: September 01, 2014, 07:21:13 PM »
I love it when a plan comes together!
Glad it's sorted!
 ;D
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Re: Looks Like I Blew My Bat Tree
« Reply #39 on: September 02, 2014, 12:02:25 AM »
Excellent news!  Nice work and enjoy the ride.
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High On Octane

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Re: Looks Like I Blew My Bat Tree
« Reply #40 on: September 02, 2014, 12:48:57 AM »
Awesome 2CV!  Glad you got it running again!   :D
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tooseevee

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Re: Looks Like I Blew My Bat Tree
« Reply #41 on: September 02, 2014, 01:15:31 AM »
                        I'm not going to write the saga now because it will kill my neck

               But now here goes nothing.

               First to recap: ACE had my head all winter - totally reshaped combustion chamber, vastly improved flow numbers, supersized Kibblewhite valves, beehive springs, ceramic coatings, 9.8:1 compression (from the reshaping, not from any piston work), aluminum intake manifold.

                While the head was away I bought a Mikuni TM 32 flat slide. Totally new to me. I took it apart at least three times & learned what I could.  Devilish spring. Ordered jets from Jets-R-Us. Ordered a throttle cable.

                 So - got it all together & started on the 2nd kick & the initial ride seemed to point to this being all marvelous. Well, no.

                  From then on it became a stubborn, erratic kick starter. I never could trust if it was going to start or not start & I started on an endless round of beginning at a turn or turn & a half out (with a #30 Pilot) & trying three or four start techniques at each quarter turn out & waiting at least a 1/2 hour or hour between tries. Noticed it would start more often in the morning (that's a hint).

             So then I thought it was a dead battree. Got a new one. It started after sitting another few days (another hint).

             So I replaced the #30 with a #27.5 - thought that might be it. Went through the whole incremental turning out of the mixture screw nightmare again. Nothing. Still unreliable starter. Went back to the #30.

              So finally my lizard brain sez "Something else has GOTTA be amiss here. I am shovelling shit against the tide & killing myself".

               Now to back up a little again. I have always been intrigued by the fact that the fuel line never looks like it has any fuel in it. So I look & see YES there is NO fuel showing just above the float bowl inlet so I sez "Let's dig into this a little".

                So I shut the petcock off, pull the hose off the carb, turn the petcock on - nothing. Barely a dribble. Shift to Reserve. Nothing. So I huff & puff into the tube & I can barely make a bubble into the tank.

                I drain the tank. Pull the petcock. No rust on the long tank filter. Go to the bench, remove the cheezy plastic filter bowl & filter, blow through it - wide open. I put the filter back in & the bowl back on, blow & I can't blow through it! What???

                  I take the tiny filter out, put the bowl back on & Wallah (I know) I can blow through it like it was a toilet paper tube. Don't ask me why. I don't know!

                  Long story short (or is it too late?) I reinstalled the petcock with no filter. Put a gallon of gas in & it started instantly. And it started instantly a 1/2 hour later & an hour later. I checked the plug a couple times during this "I don't believe this" phase & ended up at 3 full turns out (2 gave me a black plug) on the mixture with the #30 Pilot.

             Don't ask me to explain why that little filter was restricting flow, but it WAS. Empirical evidence has proven it to me, but I still don't understand it. Why it was starting more often in the morning is that the bloody float bowl was filling up overnight from the anemic dribble & that's why on the 2nd or 3rd time that I managed to get it running it would die all of a sudden just like I had shut the key off.   

              When I returned from the ride today I had a nice light chocolate brown plug. Not totally accurate, I know, but I'm happy for now.

              I AM going to try the #27.5 Pilot again now that I know it will start & run reliably. I think 3 full turns out just begs me to try the #27.5

              That's my story & I'm stickin' tuit. Oh, what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to .... modify :) ;)

                       
« Last Edit: September 02, 2014, 01:29:46 AM by tooseevee »
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DanB

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Re: Looks Like I Blew My Bat Tree
« Reply #42 on: September 02, 2014, 03:11:56 AM »
Quote
I take the tiny filter out, put the bowl back on & Wallah (I know) I can blow through it like it was a toilet paper tube. Don't ask me why. I don't know!

I wonder if the ethanol in the gas leads to the demise of that stupid plastic filter???  Glad you got it sorted! [Note to self - check stupid plastic filter in petcock]...
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tooseevee

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Re: Looks Like I Blew My Bat Tree
« Reply #43 on: September 02, 2014, 11:47:18 AM »
I wonder if the ethanol in the gas leads to the demise of that stupid plastic filter???  Glad you got it sorted! [Note to self - check stupid plastic filter in petcock]...

            The only argument against that is that the long filter inside the tank is just a longer version of the tiny one in the bowl & the long one offers no restriction at all to fuel flow.
             
           I admit I'm stumped, but I proved it out to myself that that was my whole problem. It was not the carb. It was not jetting. It was not intake leaks. It was not electrical.

           Perhaps it's something to do with the interior configuration of the petcock/bowl/filter, but then why did I not have this problem prior to the head work & the carburetor change? I can't explain it ....

            PS: I did also look at the filter bowl gasket closely & it showed no sign of distortion. I thought maybe it might be "squeezing over" & closing off an aperture, but no, I don't think so because if that was true it would also do it with the filter NOT in.

   
« Last Edit: September 02, 2014, 11:50:59 AM by tooseevee »
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tooseevee

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Re: Looks Like I Blew My Bat Tree
« Reply #44 on: September 04, 2014, 06:56:04 PM »
          Just an update on the "leaving the petcock filter out to get better fuel flow" sitcheeashun.

           Last night I thought of a little filter that I picked up somewhere back in the Dark Ages so I went down & found it in the spider webs this morning. The In & Out were a perfect, very tight fit for the fuel hose size I'm using. No clamps needed. The In & Out are adjustable a full 360 degrees. The filter mesh seems to be brass or bronze. 
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tooseevee

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Re: Looks Like I Blew My Bat Tree
« Reply #45 on: September 04, 2014, 07:18:27 PM »
          Just an update on the "leaving the petcock filter out to get better fuel flow" sitcheeashun.

           Last night I thought of a little filter that I picked up somewhere back in the Dark Ages so I went down & found it in the spider webs this morning. The In & Out were a perfect, very tight fit for the fuel hose size I'm using. No clamps needed. The In & Out are adjustable a full 360 degrees. The filter mesh seems to be brass or bronze.

            So I hooked it all up & the hose immediately glug-glugged itself full. Let it sit a while; no leaks.

             Got dressed & went for a ride. No sign of fuel starvation. Perfect.

              Got home, shut her down & the hose shows full of fuel unlike before when it always showed a big bubble.

               PS: The engine is marvelous, Ace. Revs so easily now. Coming off my exit (90 degree easy curve) in 3rd at 30 onto a straightaway, 45 is so easy & quick in 3rd that I think I might see what 50 feels like (wish I had a tach) next time. 55 & 60 now are so smooth & easy. I put the long UCE kicker back on; the 9.8:1 is a killer for an old cripple who won't give up, but I'm getting very close to not needing that 2nd & sometimes 3rd kick any more at all. It's mostly 1 or 2 kicks now. ES is instant. I just whisper the word "starter" near the bike & it's running.
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