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Author Topic: For Kevin - Assessment and Opinions  (Read 6593 times)

doomed1

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Re: For Kevin - Assessment and Opinions
« Reply #15 on: October 05, 2008, 04:12:53 AM »
The old iron barreled classics are not copies of classics, they are classics. And I'm glad I was lucky enough to find an 05  kicker. If they want to call those UCE stomach pumps Bullets , so be it, but we know what they are.
positive advancements in classic motorcycle design? IMO, the new cycle takes all the downsides of the old iron barrels and turns them into upsides, while keeping all the things that make REs great. fear or spite of technology only holds you back, so when when change comes to improve all that was poor, and leaves all that was good, to turn your nose at it is foolish.

it's everything that's great about a bullet and everything thats great about modern motorcycles all in one!

prof_stack

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Re: For Kevin - Assessment and Opinions
« Reply #16 on: October 05, 2008, 05:48:47 AM »
The old iron barreled classics are not copies of classics, they are classics. And I'm glad I was lucky enough to find an 05  kicker. If they want to call those UCE stomach pumps Bullets , so be it, but we know what they are.
positive advancements in classic motorcycle design? IMO, the new cycle takes all the downsides of the old iron barrels and turns them into upsides, while keeping all the things that make REs great. fear or spite of technology only holds you back, so when when change comes to improve all that was poor, and leaves all that was good, to turn your nose at it is foolish.

it's everything that's great about a bullet and everything thats great about modern motorcycles all in one!
+1

All things change.  In RE's case, definitely for the better.

ace.cafe

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Re: For Kevin - Assessment and Opinions
« Reply #17 on: October 05, 2008, 01:18:54 PM »
The old iron barreled classics are not copies of classics, they are classics. And I'm glad I was lucky enough to find an 05  kicker. If they want to call those UCE stomach pumps Bullets , so be it, but we know what they are.

Cyrus,
Is that an '05 KS-only with a 5-speed?

If it is, it is one of only a handful that are here in the US.
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head . Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available .  AVL mods. Redditch 700/750 Twin mods. UCE kit soon.

Please visit my new website:
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AcePerformanceBullets/info

ace.cafe

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Re: For Kevin - Assessment and Opinions
« Reply #18 on: October 05, 2008, 01:28:03 PM »
The old iron barreled classics are not copies of classics, they are classics. And I'm glad I was lucky enough to find an 05  kicker. If they want to call those UCE stomach pumps Bullets , so be it, but we know what they are.
positive advancements in classic motorcycle design? IMO, the new cycle takes all the downsides of the old iron barrels and turns them into upsides, while keeping all the things that make REs great. fear or spite of technology only holds you back, so when when change comes to improve all that was poor, and leaves all that was good, to turn your nose at it is foolish.

it's everything that's great about a bullet and everything thats great about modern motorcycles all in one!
+1

All things change.  In RE's case, definitely for the better.

I'm with-holding judgment on that yet.

The reason being that the majority of the problems seen in the Classic Bullets and the Electra too, are not inherent design problems, but are problems with quality control of some parts and assembly.

This is not necessarily going to improve with the UCE, but we hope that it will.
No matter what the engine, if the quality control of parts and assembly is lacking, it is going to have problems.

IMO, this is what the India factory needs to address in a better way.

An iron barrel Classic Bullet that has a piston made and fitted to spec, and a true and properly fitted crank is capable of going 50k miles without engine failure. And we have owners of them right here on this forum.
Yes, it does have some top-speed limitations, and requires careful break-in, in the stock form as it comes from the factory.And proper tuning and maintenance by the owner play an important part. But clearly, the bike can be capable of long term reliability. It's the QC that is the problem, and that doesn't go away with just having a new engine design. They have to build it right, or problems are going to occur.

My 2 cents.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2008, 01:32:59 PM by ace.cafe »
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head . Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available .  AVL mods. Redditch 700/750 Twin mods. UCE kit soon.

Please visit my new website:
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AcePerformanceBullets/info

prof_stack

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Re: For Kevin - Assessment and Opinions
« Reply #19 on: October 05, 2008, 03:14:44 PM »
The reason being that the majority of the problems seen in the Classic Bullets and the Electra too, are not inherent design problems, but are problems with quality control of some parts and assembly.

This is not necessarily going to improve with the UCE, but we hope that it will.
No matter what the engine, if the quality control of parts and assembly is lacking, it is going to have problems.

IMO, this is what the India factory needs to address in a better way.

An iron barrel Classic Bullet that has a piston made and fitted to spec, and a true and properly fitted crank is capable of going 50k miles without engine failure. And we have owners of them right here on this forum.

Yes, it does have some top-speed limitations, and requires careful break-in, in the stock form as it comes from the factory.And proper tuning and maintenance by the owner play an important part. But clearly, the bike can be capable of long term reliability. It's the QC that is the problem, and that doesn't go away with just having a new engine design. They have to build it right, or problems are going to occur.

My 2 cents.
+1
I believe (and hope) that QC is going to be "job one" for Enfield on the UCE.  There are many people who have shied away from RE because of the niggling problems (see the post about the new Electra which "locked up").  I am one of these people who wants to believe. 

I received email telling me that NOT buying the new AVL this last summer was the best decision I ever made.  If RE can improve to Japanese or Harley quality (a real challenge) or even Moto Guzzi quality (a more reasonable goal) then sales will improve.

Jon

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Re: For Kevin - Assessment and Opinions
« Reply #20 on: October 05, 2008, 04:57:54 PM »
Have to agee that QC is probably the key but sometimes human nature and QC don't
always gel!

I don't quite understand the need to rubbish the new Bullet even if one prefers the old one. Especially as we haven't seen any roadtests or had a chance to see it in the metal


Also remember that RE in the UK went under because they didn't adapt to a changing
marketplace and didn't get new designs into production to take advantage of that
market. Enfield India are not making that mistake.

birdmove

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Re: For Kevin - Assessment and Opinions
« Reply #21 on: October 05, 2008, 05:15:52 PM »
   I can't speak to the AVL or the new UCE engines. So far, I'm happy to putt around on my iron-head. I broke it in right and its doing well. Since I only have one car in my family, I am commited to riding a motorcycle every day to work.Rain or shine (and lots of rain). I own two other motorcycles. My 2005 KLR650 has been a rock of reliability for me. I do ride the Bullet too, but don't take it when its raining.For one thing, I haven't ridden it in a downpour, and since it has points, I'm a little worried about moisture causing problems there. Also, I was surprised how easily oxidation happened on the aluminum parts. Engine cases, fork tubes etc. I found that stuff to be a bitch to clean off. Other than that, the Bullet is perfect for my short 15 mile round trip commute with speeds never exceeding 50 mph.

    jon
Jon in Keaau, Hawaii

Vince

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Re: For Kevin - Assessment and Opinions
« Reply #22 on: October 06, 2008, 02:16:23 PM »
     Jon, use Simichrome and a buffing wheel to initially polish the cases. After that it is easy to touch up with Nevrdull.

alwscout

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Re: For Kevin - Assessment and Opinions
« Reply #23 on: October 06, 2008, 08:30:41 PM »
Well, I for one am sure glad FORD Motor Co. decided to make something besides a Model T......I reckon Royal Enfield is doing the right thing too.

Adam
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RAKe

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Re: For Kevin - Assessment and Opinions
« Reply #24 on: October 26, 2008, 06:20:04 AM »
I've been thinking about the classic (restoration) versus retro (new) argument.  Anyone has to admit that the benefits of a classic ride are great, as long as riders do not have to deal with all the problems of classic design--primitive metallurgy, antiquated component engineering, and reduced dependability.  There is also a declining availability of classic parts, worsened by the compromised quality of those that remain (or are remanufactured).

With the new UCE, we (riders) will maintain the retro looks and design while also pacifying Fedzilla with reduced emissions.  We will also have more parts of higher quality available than if we were to go the classic route.  We will be able to spend more money on improvement and less on maintenance.  We will ride more, and the quality of our rides will be better.

Also, by purchasing an RE retro design over other, more expensive retro vehicles (such as the Harley I now ride), we are saving considerable cash.  The only logical choice is to purchase an advanced, but retro design such as that to be delivered by Royal Enfield's UCE next year.  Put me on the waiting list for a 2009 RE Classic Deluxe.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2008, 04:21:52 AM by RAKe »
196? Triumph 500 (basket case), 1968 BSA 650 (needed work), 1976 Triumph T140V 750 (ran well), 2004 Harley-Davidson XL883C, 2007 Harley-Davidson FXDB

Waiting to order 2012 Royal Enfield Bullet Deluxe

taildraggin

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Re: For Kevin - Assessment and Opinions
« Reply #25 on: October 26, 2008, 12:25:19 PM »
This is ridiculous.

RE must make changes to make emissions and noise requirements.  Period.  Kevin can, and has, explained why FI and hydro tappets are necessary.  They are forced to make these changes to be able to sell anything.They have a small market in EU/US and can't meet it with the old stuff.

The UCE reduces "cheap original" appeal, but they are forced to do it.

Model labelling?  Reality check; Indian Enfields are facsimiles. 

Enfield is not resting, not stunned, it's long dead; deceased, joined its maker decades ago.  An ex-motorcycle company.  No fresh cuttlefish will bring it 'round.
1977 HD XLCR
1937 HD ULH
Diesel Enfield abirthing from a 2004 Sixty-5

Jon

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Re: For Kevin - Assessment and Opinions
« Reply #26 on: October 28, 2008, 07:33:11 PM »
So just because a company is bought, sold and moves location it cannot produce
the same product, develop that product and produce new designs?

There is just as much continuity between the old UK based RE and the current
India based company if not more so than the old Meriden Triumph factory and the
current Triumph operation.

Nothing wrong with a company using it's heritage as an asset either,look at Harley.

PhilJ

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Re: For Kevin - Assessment and Opinions
« Reply #27 on: October 28, 2008, 11:09:59 PM »
So just because a company is bought, sold and moves location it cannot produce
the same product, develop that product and produce new designs?

There is just as much continuity between the old UK based RE and the current
India based company if not more so than the old Meriden Triumph factory and the
current Triumph operation.

Nothing wrong with a company using it's heritage as an asset either,look at Harley.

I thin what he's talking about is the changes are necessary to meet pollution requirements.



taildraggin

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Re: For Kevin - Assessment and Opinions
« Reply #28 on: October 29, 2008, 04:27:31 AM »
Yes.  Harley will be forced to do it, too...  (They all have FI now and already have about 25 years experience selling catalytic bikes in some countries.)

There is a charm to the Indian RE products.  Part of it is the old design, but they are adding something new that is different and fresh.  I don't understand why they do certain things, but they are interesting products (unlike their competition).

You've got to cut the cord sometime...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMJPm9iK7aI

 :-[
« Last Edit: October 29, 2008, 04:36:31 AM by taildraggin »
1977 HD XLCR
1937 HD ULH
Diesel Enfield abirthing from a 2004 Sixty-5

PaulF

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Re: For Kevin - Assessment and Opinions
« Reply #29 on: October 29, 2008, 01:36:31 PM »
Kevin,

I'm probably going to piss off a few people but let me make two statements.

My opinion, after viewing the pics, is that the UCE motor is an abomination.....
.......................
HOWEVER, if the factory shrank the UCE bore, made it a twin and printed "750 INTERCEPTOR" on the side covers, with reproduction Smith gauges, ammeter in the headlight nacelle, and pea shooter silencers, dripping with chrome,  I WOULD BUY ONE TOMORROW and I think they would fly off the shelves as it were.
???
I'm not at all pissed off, but I don't understand your vitriol about the new UCE Bullet engine being an abomination when you follow it with your second statement.  By your own reasoning, why wouldn't the new Interceptor also be an abomination?  Besides, you've already got a classic Bullet - no one's taking it away from you just because they came up with a more modern motor.

Eamon

A revived twin, to me, would be entirely new animal. I hold the Bullet in high regard and am somewhat, alright, stubbornly purist. As I said before, if I wanted just another single-cylinder unit engine, I could buy one of Asian fare for around equal money. Owning a Bullet is almost as good as owning a Gold Star - with a warranty.
I could embrace a new twin as a radical departure from the Bullet. Apples and Oranges.