Author Topic: Kick start woes. (Read 7738 times)

RagMan · « **on:** August 25, 2007, 05:50:06 PM »

The oily damaged my ankle badly today. It was not starting well, and decided not to, so I kept at it for another 6 kicks.. Bad Idea. I now have a blue ankle, very painful to the touch, very swollen, and it won't support my weight. I am going to sit still for a while, and see if it improves.

deejay · « **Reply #1 on:** August 25, 2007, 06:25:28 PM »

put some cold beer on it.

Peter · « **Reply #2 on:** August 25, 2007, 07:12:44 PM »

That sucks. Big singles, big pain.

I damaged my right ankle almost 30 years ago trying to kick a Maico 400cc motocross after it had stalled in the middle of a freshly plowed field. I got careless and after a few kicks I was kicking with the kickstart pedal under the heel of my boot. Big mistake.

I knew that I should only kick the Maico with the tip of the boot, but I got careless. (You can kick anything and get away with any kickback provided you kick just slightly forward of the ball of your foot. When it kicks back it'll just slip out forward and you foot hits the ground - no problemo if you keep the shin out of the way.) I couldn't walk normally for over a year. To this day my ankle bothers me on and off and it doesn't look anything like the good one.

Now, in contrast to a Maico 2-stroke, the Bullet engine is not supposed to kick back when kicked on the down powerstroke (that is with proper technique). So my question is were you getting impatient, just like I did, and kicked it without positioning the the piston?

It's too late for your ankle now (for mine as well) but I have made it a habit even to kick designs like the Bullet with the ball of my foot. It's harder to do but it's like insurance - you pay now to avoid the big bill. t

Hopefully you just got a little sprain. I probably had a fracture of some sort but I was too young and stupid to see a doctor who would have probably put a cast on.

Best for your recovery.

Peter

justin_o_guy · « **Reply #3 on:** August 25, 2007, 07:37:22 PM »

Now is the time to pay attention to the ankle. Elevate it, above your heart, wrap it with an ice pach & after about 15 minutes, swap the ice for heat,for about 10 minutes ( so the cool slows the infalmation, then, the heat allows the blood flow to increase & haul away the detritus from the injury.) Then, nothing for 15 or 20, then cold again, the heat, then nothing. Pay attention to it, avoid the beer, comforting as it sounds, The NSAIDS arent that good an idea, ( non steroidal anti inflamatories) like Tylenol. An ace wrap, lightly, to h9inder the swelling, not to try to crush it back to proper size.

No, I've never been injured!

RagMan · « **Reply #4 on:** August 25, 2007, 07:54:36 PM »

Thanks for the info, guys.. It is a little better, still a deep blue red color, swollen a lot, and very tender, but I can walk now.. well hobble would be more accurate. I will try the hot cold thing.

This is the forth time the oily has bitten me, but by far the worst. Bloody thing.

deejay · « **Reply #5 on:** August 25, 2007, 08:47:02 PM »

Quote from: justin_o_guy on August 25, 2007, 07:37:22 PM

Now is the time to pay attention to the ankle. Elevate it, above your heart, wrap it with an ice pach & after about 15 minutes, swap the ice for heat,for about 10 minutes ( so the cool slows the infalmation, then, the heat allows the blood flow to increase & haul away the detritus from the injury.) Then, nothing for 15 or 20, then cold again, the heat, then nothing. Pay attention to it, avoid the beer, comforting as it sounds, The NSAIDS arent that good an idea, ( non steroidal anti inflamatories) like Tylenol. An ace wrap, lightly, to h9inder the swelling, not to try to crush it back to proper size.

No, I've never been injured!

Heat? No way man. Rest, Ice, Compress, Elevate (RICE). No heat.

I've spent the better part of my life skateboarding handrails, stairs, etc. After all of my injuries/surgeries, the doctors always told me to ice and never heat. But hell, maybe the rules have changed, my last knee surgery was 5 years ago.

Kevin Mahoney · « **Reply #6 on:** August 25, 2007, 09:30:44 PM »

Peter,
You need to seriously do some tune-up work on that bike before it bites you again. It is most likely too far advanced, too lean or with a weak battery which mimics the other two. You bike should NEVER bite back. It only does that when it is tuned uncorrectly.

RagMan · « **Reply #7 on:** August 25, 2007, 09:32:04 PM »

Couldn't find anything hot, so I just went with cold.. seemed to do something. Got it strapped up now, and feel better. I need to get it working, so I can go start the bloody bike.

I am really, really looking forward to the electric start bikes I am getting in January.. Only five months..

RagMan · « **Reply #8 on:** August 25, 2007, 09:36:51 PM »

So, Kevin, you mean Peter, or me..? ?

You say the bike should not bite back? Mine has done it a few times since I got it used. Always decompressed, always by the ammeter, always kicked it just one time per try. I would like to have it not do it again, it kind of makes me leery of using the thing after it does it. That is why I so much wanted that one off electric start you guys sold the day before I wanted it.

So, for tuning, what do you suggest - is it too lean, too rich, or what - the battery is in good condition, freshly charged.

Peter · « **Reply #9 on:** August 25, 2007, 10:33:58 PM »

He can't be referring to me. So far my Bullet hasn't kicked back.
It hasn't even backfired since that unfortunate incident which took out the starter gears a few months back.

But generally, lean idle mixture +/- overadvanced timing does lead to backfire - not to kickback in the Bullet, no, not with proper technique and good mechanical condition.
I first find the maximum resistance with the kicker (compression stroke), then I pull the decompressor and then I listen for the noise in the exhaust. Once I'm sure the chamber is empty (beginning of power stroke), I let the kicker come up all the way and presto....

It's an entirely different issue regarding that backfiring thing. Kickback occurs only with the kicker still engaged and crank rotation reversing because of lack of momentum to get through TDC before the burn starts seriously (that's why lean and advanced aggravate the problem). That really isn't supposed to happen with a properly executed kick start attempt because the kicker will be disengaged by then.

The bigger problem from a design perspective is instantaneous reversal of rotation somewhat later during starting or even at idle. That problem (call it backfire if you will) takes out the starter gears. And you don't have to use the ES for it to happen. Doesn't happen much in a perfectly tuned Bullet apparently. Good example of what happens if you just repair the damaged starter gears is found somewhere else here:

http://www.enfieldmotorcycles.com/forum/index.php/topic,248.0.html

In any case, just a vulnerability of the ES cycles, although it can't be good for the worm drive....

Peter

gapl53 · « **Reply #10 on:** August 26, 2007, 08:12:28 AM »

Take it from someone who has been injured enough to qualify as a EMT.
If it is as red, purple, swollen, and you cannot put any pressure on it without seeing the Fourth of July. It's time for a x-ray. You might have a greenstick fracture.

Hope it gets better for you soon!

gemini641 · « **Reply #11 on:** August 26, 2007, 10:38:43 AM »

Boy,

I can relate to this one...see Sprag clutch woes and Sprag clutch repair on this board.

After trashing two driven gears (tore seven teeth off) from backfiring I discovered that the magnet ring (electronic ignition) in the distributor had slipped about 1/8 inch and advanced the timing a WHOLE lot. It was driving me crazy.

I had tried kick starting after removing all the ES gearing and she backfired so hard that I couldn't use my ankle for a day. But an ice pack that night and an Ace bandage the next day helped a lot. That violent backfire is what led me to the ignition problem.

When I called CMW and asked if a drop of epoxy on the magnet ring would be OK, answer from Jim was yes. So I repositioned the magnet to match the pickup at exactly TDC with a couple drops of epoxy and WOW, she actually started first kick, no backfire, and ran fine. Dynamically timed it with a timing light per Larry's instructions and she ran even better. Even took her for a 2 mile spin.

Will take her out again today and see if things are still good, then will order my THIRD ES gear and reinstall the ES.

So I definitely concur with RE 1. In my case, it was definitely the timing as I'm running a little on the rich side right now.

Want to know how to remove and reinstall the Sprag clutch unit? Just ask. I can do it in my sleep!!!!

The thing I don't like about all this is how unforgiving the Bullet is of a backfire and how expensive it can be!!!

Tom

Peter · « **Reply #12 on:** August 26, 2007, 07:13:59 PM »

Well yours was apparently way overadvanced.
I actually had made a mistake the evening prior to my starter gear mishap.
I had done an idle adjustment but forgot to turn in the mixture screw as a last step.
I was also in the process of ping timing after having switched to a BPR9EIX projected tip plug.
At the time time, my timing was about 2-3 degrees overadvanced (I'm now at about 27 degrees) and together with the slightly lean idle mixture: Karunck.
It still wasn't out of whack far enough to kick back.

I turned the mixture srcew in a quarter turn - never had a problem again even with initially slightly overadvanced timing.

Peter

lunar · « **Reply #13 on:** August 28, 2007, 03:57:43 PM »

I hope your leg feels better by now...

I just lost my kick start lever somewhere on the highway. Was too lazy to fix the problem earlier today when I saw it needed attention...

So, I will try to buy a new one...any ideas where to look?

P.S. I saw cool dude on RE, so that's 3 RE in Croatia! (he even had a jacket with "Made like a gun" on it. )

RagMan · « **Reply #14 on:** August 28, 2007, 05:40:29 PM »

Leg still painful, cannot start the Bullet, because I have no strength in the ankle yet, so today, I happily rode the Ural.

Spitting Bull · « **Reply #15 on:** August 28, 2007, 05:52:55 PM »

Indiana - due to an old injury I find that my right knee can become very painful from time to time, making kickstarting the Bullet very painful. I found that as long as I use the proper drill, it's quite easy to start the bike with my left foot. May be worth a try!

Tom

RagMan · « **Reply #16 on:** August 29, 2007, 02:05:16 PM »

I may try it, but then I may injure both sides...

Spitting Bull · « **Reply #17 on:** August 29, 2007, 02:15:35 PM »

Quote from: IndianaBulleteer on August 29, 2007, 02:05:16 PM

I may try it, but then I may injure both sides...

True.... especially if your Bullet is out to get you. I hadn't thought of that.

Tom

lunar · « **Reply #18 on:** August 29, 2007, 02:40:39 PM »

weird...

I was pushing my RE few times yesterday...(I lost kick start lever - so this is the only way to start now)...and I have to say that it's not easy!

My knee hurts today, but also one elbow (how did I manage that?)...

We should start thread about pain

How's your injury, IndianaBulleteer?

RagMan · « **Reply #19 on:** August 29, 2007, 07:50:34 PM »

My injury has stabilized to bloody painful. Can't touch the area without contact pain, can't run, kick start anything, or dance on it. Can walk, with limp, can move ankle around. It hurts when things touch it, wakes me up if I hit it with the other foot, and makes me howl if the dog jumps on it.

I am having to rethink my preferences for motorcycling pleasures. Electric start is so attractive, and kickstarts are things I may well never wish to play with again. When I get better, and can run, I will try bump starting it -- run like heck, jump in air, land on bike at same time as letting out clutch on second gear.. Starts quite well - or at least it did in the 60s.

gapl53 · « **Reply #20 on:** August 30, 2007, 09:28:16 AM »

Quote from: Spitting Bull on August 28, 2007, 05:52:55 PM

Indiana - due to an old injury I find that my right knee can become very painful from time to time, making kickstarting the Bullet very painful. I found that as long as I use the proper drill, it's quite easy to start the bike with my left foot. May be worth a try!

Tom

I can remember more than once my father standing beside his BSA Lighting Rocket and using his left foot to start the beast.

RagMan · « **Reply #21 on:** August 30, 2007, 01:20:34 PM »

So the thing got him too, eh?

lunar · « **Reply #22 on:** August 30, 2007, 01:49:59 PM »

"When I get better, and can run, I will try bump starting it -- run like heck, jump in air, land on bike at same time as letting out clutch on second gear.. Starts quite well - or at least it did in the 60s."

My bike is so heavy...and I guess I am not so fit anymore...bump starting is so difficult.

I wish I have my kick start pedal

RagMan · « **Reply #23 on:** August 30, 2007, 04:40:07 PM »

You could maybe find a hill. I had an old car like that - I had to park on a hill, because I need to start it by rolling it down the hill.

RagMan · « **Reply #24 on:** August 30, 2007, 09:20:18 PM »

I turned on my ankle tonight, and something clicked.. I will get an xray tomorrow. It now hurts like merry 'ell. If my ankle is broken, the Enfield is for sale - I love the bike, but I will have a weakened ankle for a long time, and I like to ride bikes, not have 'em sitting in the barn because I can't start them. The question, if i have a broken ankle, is do I put the disc brake onto the bike before I sell it, or should I keep it for the Classic I intend to buy in the new year?

prof_stack · « **Reply #25 on:** August 30, 2007, 11:19:49 PM »

Quote from: IndianaBulleteer on August 30, 2007, 09:20:18 PM

I turned on my ankle tonight, and something clicked.. I will get an xray tomorrow. It now hurts like merry 'ell. If my ankle is broken, the Enfield is for sale - I love the bike, but I will have a weakened ankle for a long time, and I like to ride bikes, not have 'em sitting in the barn because I can't start them. The question, if i have a broken ankle, is do I put the disc brake onto the bike before I sell it, or should I keep it for the Classic I intend to buy in the new year?

DANG! That's a dang shame. Let's hope it's not broken. Good luck!!

RagMan · « **Reply #26 on:** August 31, 2007, 04:54:00 PM »

Went to the doctor's office today, got looked at by multi angle xrays, and got a nasty shock. "Fractured Talus, Navicular, second Cuneiform,and upper section of the cuboid." Got told I was either hard as nails, or stupid for walking around on it for a week.

This means I have a surplus Royal Enfield now. I will have to wait until January to get an electric start machine. The doctor suggests that it will take over three months to get strength back in my ankle, and kick starting a bike will be out for six months or more.

Peter · « **Reply #27 on:** August 31, 2007, 05:21:46 PM »

Man, sorry to hear that.

In my case it was straightforward stupidity.

One week is nothing, gotta give a person a little time.

May it heal well.

Peter

RagMan · « **Reply #28 on:** August 31, 2007, 06:35:14 PM »

Thanks, it sucks a bit - I am more upset with the idea of selling the bullet, but I will have a weak ankle for months if not a year or more.. no point keeping a bike you can't ride, when I have one I am going to ride every day - I can ride the Ural, even though I can't really drive the jeep (can't get in)

deejay · « **Reply #29 on:** August 31, 2007, 07:04:16 PM »

oh man, that really sucks. sorry to hear that.

Peter · « **Reply #30 on:** August 31, 2007, 08:42:41 PM »

By the time you have sold your Bullet and have another one your ankle would likely be quite ready to kick again.

I never got a chance to kick the Maico 400 again because the co-owner and others had trashed it by then. It wasn't the kicking back keeping me off it, but my ankle was to weak to ride it.

Kick back doesn't have to result in injury. Use the ball of your foot and anticipate kick back.

I couldn't afford a cycle with electric start and my next street legal cycle was a MZ ETZ 250.

There is no reason to be afraid of kick starting the Bullet. I'd take a KS only Bullet over an ES any day and I actually removed the ES from my 2003 ES.

Use the ball of your foot, pedal just slightly more forward than what feels right, and anticipate to slip off. Kick back will just be a mild surprise then. If you don't have the strength to kick like that, leave the vehicle to somone else. That's all there is to it.

Well, I'm just posting this so people reading this thread don't get paranoid about kicking their Bullet or any other vehicle (outboards too, don't lock on to the handle!) Just don't do the lazy a$$ way of locking your boot heel on the kick starter pedal and then use your weight - bad form. Myself and others have paid for it.

Peter

RagMan · « **Reply #31 on:** August 31, 2007, 08:49:37 PM »

Fortunately, with the news of the new bikes coming, and other nice things, I will not be Enfield less for all that long - I may not even sell this one - I will try, but not every sale goes through. I rather like the idea of a Classic, with the AVL engine - that is what I am looking forward to riding in 6 months.

little_a_o · « **Reply #32 on:** August 31, 2007, 10:00:06 PM »

The first thing I felt necessary to do was to relocate the kick shaft back a spline or two to get it out of my way when I put my feet down at a stop. Being shorted on the inseam I was quite uncomfortable having it press into the back of my leg right behind my knee.
Yes I did lose some useful throw from the kicker and that may explain why I seem to have a hard time following the good advice from this board on how to avoid being bucked!

Up till not to long ago I had been standing on it with my left foot while off the bike with great success. One time it did kick enough to get my attention. I guess so far I've been lucky and I will continue to practice the safer way.

RagMan · « **Reply #33 on:** September 01, 2007, 09:18:03 AM »

If I could stand on my right leg, I would try my left one to kick the bike, but I can't support moving weight with the bad ankle. It is amazing what you use your ankle for - not just for walking or standing - it is used when you work out your abs, and shoulders - I am having to modify my sets to isolate the ankle.. This is getting old really fast, I want to go for a ride....

little_a_o · « **Reply #34 on:** September 01, 2007, 04:07:18 PM »

You now have a good excuse to add the hack and train the monkey to KICK.

Little ao

Quote from: IndianaBulleteer on September 01, 2007, 09:18:03 AM

If I could stand on my right leg, I would try my left one to kick the bike, but I can't support moving weight with the bad ankle. It is amazing what you use your ankle for - not just for walking or standing - it is used when you work out your abs, and shoulders - I am having to modify my sets to isolate the ankle.. This is getting old really fast, I want to go for a ride....

RagMan · « **Reply #35 on:** September 01, 2007, 06:30:46 PM »

I haven't found anyway to get my monkey near the kick start, specially since it bit me. (the kickstart, not the monkey.)

deejay · « **Reply #36 on:** September 01, 2007, 09:48:38 PM »

Quote from: IndianaBulleteer on September 01, 2007, 06:30:46 PM

I haven't found anyway to get my monkey near the kick start, specially since it bit me. (the kickstart, not the monkey.)

Your timing must be way off, my bike has never kicked back.

RagMan · « **Reply #37 on:** September 01, 2007, 09:52:14 PM »

Could well be - I have had trouble with it since I got it.

gapl53 · « **Reply #38 on:** September 02, 2007, 08:22:40 AM »

Quote from: IndianaBulleteer on August 31, 2007, 04:54:00 PM

Went to the doctor's office today, got looked at by multi angle xrays, and got a nasty shock. "Fractured Talus, Navicular, second Cuneiform,and upper section of the cuboid." Got told I was either hard as nails, or stupid for walking around on it for a week.

This means I have a surplus Royal Enfield now. I will have to wait until January to get an electric start machine. The doctor suggests that it will take over three months to get strength back in my ankle, and kick starting a bike will be out for six months or more.

Sorry to hear that it's broken.

Now if you would have listen to my earlier post about getting it x-rayed.
Sorry, I had to say that!

I hope that it heals quickly.

RagMan · « **Reply #39 on:** September 02, 2007, 02:56:22 PM »

I should have xrayed it sooner, true - but a total horror of things medic makes me seek their help only when I can do nothing else - such philosophy has served me will thus far.

The type of fractures suggests that a rapid healing will not occur. immobilizing the joint would do damage to muscle tissue, restricting it as I am doing does not harm to muscle and does not inhibit bone repair. The slow healing of such wounds is more to do with type of fracture, than a slight chance of motion.

gapl53 · « **Reply #40 on:** September 03, 2007, 09:25:31 AM »

Quote from: IndianaBulleteer on September 02, 2007, 02:56:22 PM

I should have xrayed it sooner, true - but a total horror of things medic makes me seek their help only when I can do nothing else - such philosophy has served me will thus far.

The type of fractures suggests that a rapid healing will not occur. immobilizing the joint would do damage to muscle tissue, restricting it as I am doing does not harm to muscle and does not inhibit bone repair. The slow healing of such wounds is more to do with type of fracture, than a slight chance of motion.

I know where your coming from. Been there, done that, got the "T-Shirt", and it's not fun. Just don't do what I've done and put it under stress too soon. If you re-break it, you'll have more problem with it than you have with it now.

Hang in there and let it heal!

I hope that you get well soon!

RagMan · « **Reply #41 on:** September 03, 2007, 10:01:25 AM »

Thank you for your support guys - having this ain't any fun, but it will heal - slowly, but it will heal. I have broken things before (27years service made sure of that) and know how I heal - I am faster than most, slower than some.

dewjantim · « **Reply #42 on:** September 03, 2007, 07:09:51 PM »

At least you should be able to ride the sporty. Get well quick.....Dew.

RagMan · « **Reply #43 on:** September 04, 2007, 12:04:02 AM »

I don't get to ride the Sporty very often - It has been broken down more days than not since I got it, but I do ride the Ural everyday.

VMAX · « **Reply #44 on:** September 08, 2007, 06:21:24 PM »

Glad to hear you finally got the ankle looked at

As you say, all injuries heal in time. I'm going to go out on the limb and assume that we will hear more from you on the site!

Take care & heal quickly.

RagMan · « **Reply #45 on:** September 08, 2007, 10:35:00 PM »

I was intending to sell the kickstart bike, but I can't I like it too much.. I will do something with it to make it not hurt me. I do intend to buy an ES in the new year.

LotusSevenMan · « **Reply #46 on:** September 20, 2007, 02:31:51 PM »

Hope the ankle heals soonish and well etc.

I have a 500ES but only use the starter if I really have to as in stalled in traffic etc which happened when I first got it a few times due to 'operator error' !!!

I enjoy kicking it over. Satisfying.
I have had it kick back once thoough I admit and yesterday I realised I'd left the fuel turned on for three days without going out on it. Kicked it over yesterday evening to be greeted by a flame from the air intake!!!!!!

Runs fine now etc etc now so guess it had just flooded a bit without me realising.

RagMan · « **Reply #47 on:** September 20, 2007, 04:11:31 PM »

Make sure you keep the timing spot on.. if you don't you may break a bone or two. (or four in my case)

Sam · « **Reply #48 on:** September 20, 2007, 06:19:37 PM »

It's surprising how much oomph that comparatively low compression can generate when it's feeling testy. I had a 500 Enfield, late 50's variety, in the 60's that'd been abused somewhat. I recall trying to start it after having far too much to drink, to ride back to campus (student at that time) and being spit over the handlebars; hit a wall upside down with my back. I walked home after that. The bike probably saved my life by not starting.

RagMan · « **Reply #49 on:** September 20, 2007, 07:19:00 PM »

I was amazed how hard the kick back was - I have very strong legs - I work out, ride cycle, and walk so I have good muscles - that may be why it broke two of my ankle bones, and two foot bones, but it ripped of a loose shoe, and threw that 40 ft in front of the bike, and my foot swelled up to foot ball size. Funny thing was, I was not straight legged, but tense, so my muscles held the leg still, and the kick back bent my foot up to my leg.. It hurt then, and it hurts now still. The ankle is not hurting much, now, just the top bone of my foot. It has taught me a lesson I will not forget - keep the timing spot on, and get a bike with electric start.

I am intending to lower the gearing of the bike, and turn it into a trials machine, start it by bumping it, and only use the kicker when I have to. I will probably go with an electronic ignition too, to keep it from doing my foot in again.

gemini641 · « **Reply #50 on:** September 20, 2007, 10:44:28 PM »

Electronic ignition is good but it has to stay spot on, too. It was trying to set the timing on my electronic ignition that started all my troubles. The backfiring from being too far advanced took out my Sprag clutch and a couple of other starter gears, too. I strongly suggest you time it dynamically with a timing light. See the topic "Srag clutch woes" on this forum to see how it's done. It worked great and the timing is right on the money.

Tom

RagMan · « **Reply #51 on:** September 21, 2007, 12:31:03 AM »

Thank you for that information and suggestion. I will do that, when all the bits get here for getting it right. I am ordering them as finances allow.

Kevin Mahoney · « **Reply #52 on:** September 22, 2007, 07:56:18 PM »

This ignition is available from us (Classic Motorworks), for much less than the $130 quoted below. Our everyday price is $89.95 and it can be found here: http://www.royalenfieldusa.com/best-value-electronic-ignition-p-94.html
When you are wiring it up the instructions shown below can indeed be confusing. The problem is that they eliminate the kill switch on US market bikes. If you attach the wire that is supposed to go to the negative terminal of the coil to the wire going to the points instead all will be well. Another thing to remember is that this unit uses the stock spring/weight type advance that is stock equipment. A reliable method that has been used for over 100 years will good result........however it goes to full advance pretty quickly. No issue with a stock bike, but less than desirable for a modified engine. We offer a stronger spring to counter this It is a very easy install and doesn't cost very much. If there is a weakness to the system it is that you have to time the engine by ear. We offer another unit
http://www.royalenfieldusa.com/power-electronic-ignition-p-7013.html the Power Arc.
It is quite a bit more sophisticated and is easy to time.

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Author Topic: Kick start woes. (Read 7738 times)

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