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Author Topic: Kick start woes.  (Read 8841 times)

RagMan

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Kick start woes.
« on: August 25, 2007, 10:50:06 PM »
The oily damaged my ankle badly today.  It was not starting well, and decided not to, so I kept at it for another 6 kicks.. Bad Idea.   I now have a blue ankle, very painful to the touch, very swollen, and it won't support my weight.  I am going to sit still for a while, and see if it improves.
aka Indiana Bulleteer.
''99 Classic Bullet. '05 Ural Tourist sidecar rig, converted to 2wd. '05 Harley Davidson Sportster.
Jefferson County, WA

deejay

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Re: Kick start woes.
« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2007, 11:25:28 PM »
put some cold beer on it.

Peter

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Re: Kick start woes.
« Reply #2 on: August 26, 2007, 12:12:44 AM »
That sucks. Big singles, big pain.

I damaged my right ankle almost 30 years ago trying to kick a Maico 400cc motocross after it had stalled in the middle of a freshly plowed field. I got careless and after a few kicks I was kicking with the kickstart pedal under the heel of my boot. Big mistake.

 I knew that I should only kick the Maico with the tip of the boot, but I got careless. (You can kick anything and get away with any kickback provided you kick just slightly forward of the ball of your foot. When it kicks back it'll just slip out forward and you foot hits the ground - no problemo if you keep the shin out of the way.) I couldn't walk normally for over a year. To this day my ankle bothers me on and off and it doesn't look anything like the good one.

Now, in contrast to a Maico 2-stroke, the Bullet engine is not supposed to kick back when kicked on the down powerstroke (that is with proper technique). So my question is were you getting impatient, just like I did, and kicked it without positioning the the piston?

It's too late for your ankle now (for mine as well) but I have made it a habit even to kick designs like the Bullet with the ball of my foot. It's harder to do but it's like insurance - you pay now to avoid the big bill. t

Hopefully you just got a little sprain. I probably had a fracture of some sort but I was too young and stupid to see a doctor who would have probably put a cast on.


Best for your recovery.

Peter
« Last Edit: August 26, 2007, 12:42:10 AM by Peter »

justin_o_guy

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Re: Kick start woes.
« Reply #3 on: August 26, 2007, 12:37:22 AM »
Now is the time to pay attention to the ankle. Elevate it, above your heart, wrap it with an ice pach & after about 15 minutes, swap the ice for heat,for about 10 minutes ( so the cool slows the infalmation, then, the heat allows the blood flow to increase & haul away the detritus from the injury.) Then, nothing for 15 or 20, then cold again, the heat, then nothing. Pay attention to it, avoid the beer, comforting as it sounds, The NSAIDS arent that good an idea, ( non steroidal anti inflamatories) like Tylenol. An ace wrap, lightly, to h9inder the swelling, not to try to crush it back to proper size.

No, I've never been injured!  ;)

RagMan

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Re: Kick start woes.
« Reply #4 on: August 26, 2007, 12:54:36 AM »
Thanks for the info, guys.. It is a little better, still a deep blue red color, swollen a lot, and very tender, but I can walk now..  well hobble would be more accurate. I will try the hot cold thing.

This is the forth time the oily has bitten me, but by far the worst.  Bloody thing.
aka Indiana Bulleteer.
''99 Classic Bullet. '05 Ural Tourist sidecar rig, converted to 2wd. '05 Harley Davidson Sportster.
Jefferson County, WA

deejay

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Re: Kick start woes.
« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2007, 01:47:02 AM »
Now is the time to pay attention to the ankle. Elevate it, above your heart, wrap it with an ice pach & after about 15 minutes, swap the ice for heat,for about 10 minutes ( so the cool slows the infalmation, then, the heat allows the blood flow to increase & haul away the detritus from the injury.) Then, nothing for 15 or 20, then cold again, the heat, then nothing. Pay attention to it, avoid the beer, comforting as it sounds, The NSAIDS arent that good an idea, ( non steroidal anti inflamatories) like Tylenol. An ace wrap, lightly, to h9inder the swelling, not to try to crush it back to proper size.

No, I've never been injured!  ;)


Heat? No way man. Rest, Ice, Compress, Elevate (RICE). No heat.

I've spent the better part of my life skateboarding handrails, stairs, etc. After all of my injuries/surgeries, the doctors always told me to ice and never heat. But hell, maybe the rules have changed, my last knee surgery was 5 years ago.

Kevin Mahoney

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Re: Kick start woes.
« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2007, 02:30:44 AM »
Peter,
You need to seriously do some tune-up work on that bike before it bites you again. It is most likely too far advanced, too lean or with a weak battery which mimics the other two. You bike should NEVER bite back. It only does that when it is tuned uncorrectly.

RagMan

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Re: Kick start woes.
« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2007, 02:32:04 AM »
Couldn't find anything hot, so I just went with cold.. seemed to do something.  Got it strapped up now, and feel better.  I need to get it working, so I can go start the bloody bike. :)  I am really, really looking forward to the electric start bikes I am getting in January.. Only five months.. 
aka Indiana Bulleteer.
''99 Classic Bullet. '05 Ural Tourist sidecar rig, converted to 2wd. '05 Harley Davidson Sportster.
Jefferson County, WA

RagMan

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Re: Kick start woes.
« Reply #8 on: August 26, 2007, 02:36:51 AM »
So, Kevin, you mean Peter, or me..? ?

You say the bike should not bite back? Mine has done it a few times since I got it used. Always decompressed, always by the ammeter, always kicked it just one time per try.  I would like to have it not do it again, it kind of makes me leery of using the thing after it does it. That is why I so much wanted that one off electric start you guys sold the day before I wanted it. :) 

So, for tuning, what do you suggest - is it too lean, too rich, or what - the battery is in good condition, freshly charged.
aka Indiana Bulleteer.
''99 Classic Bullet. '05 Ural Tourist sidecar rig, converted to 2wd. '05 Harley Davidson Sportster.
Jefferson County, WA

Peter

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Re: Kick start woes.
« Reply #9 on: August 26, 2007, 03:33:58 AM »
He can't be referring to me. So far my Bullet hasn't kicked back.
It hasn't even backfired since that unfortunate incident which took out the starter gears a few months back.

But generally, lean idle mixture +/- overadvanced timing does lead to backfire - not to kickback in the Bullet, no, not with proper technique and good mechanical condition.
I first find the maximum resistance with the kicker (compression stroke), then I pull the decompressor and then I listen for the noise in the exhaust. Once I'm sure the chamber is empty (beginning of power stroke), I let the kicker come up all the way and presto....

It's an entirely different issue regarding that backfiring thing. Kickback occurs only with the kicker still engaged and crank rotation reversing because of lack of momentum to get through TDC before the burn starts seriously (that's why lean and advanced aggravate the problem). That really isn't supposed to happen with a properly executed kick start attempt because the kicker will be disengaged by then.

The bigger problem from a design perspective is instantaneous reversal of rotation somewhat later during starting or even at idle. That problem (call it backfire if you will) takes out the starter gears. And you don't have to use the ES for it to happen. Doesn't happen much in a perfectly tuned Bullet apparently. Good example of what happens if you just repair the damaged starter gears is found somewhere else here:

http://www.enfieldmotorcycles.com/forum/index.php/topic,248.0.html

In any case, just a vulnerability of the ES cycles, although it can't be good for the worm drive....

Peter
« Last Edit: August 26, 2007, 03:47:09 AM by Peter »

gapl53

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Re: Kick start woes.
« Reply #10 on: August 26, 2007, 01:12:28 PM »
Take it from someone who has been injured enough to qualify as a EMT.
If it is as red, purple, swollen, and you cannot put any pressure on it without seeing the Fourth of July. It's time for a x-ray. You might have a greenstick fracture.

Hope it gets better for you soon!

gemini641

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Re: Kick start woes.
« Reply #11 on: August 26, 2007, 03:38:43 PM »
Boy,

I can relate to this one...see Sprag clutch woes and Sprag clutch repair on this board.

After trashing two driven gears (tore seven teeth off) from backfiring I discovered that the magnet ring (electronic ignition) in the distributor had slipped about 1/8  inch and advanced the timing a WHOLE lot. It was driving me crazy.

I had tried kick starting after removing all the ES gearing and she backfired so hard that I couldn't use my ankle for a day. But an ice pack that night and an Ace bandage the next day helped a lot. That violent backfire is what led me to the ignition problem.

When I called CMW and asked if a drop of epoxy on the magnet ring would be OK, answer from Jim was yes. So I repositioned the magnet to match the pickup at exactly TDC with a couple drops of epoxy  and WOW, she actually started first kick, no backfire, and ran fine.  Dynamically timed it with a timing light per Larry's instructions and she ran even better. Even took her for a 2 mile spin.

Will take her out again today and see if things are still good, then will order my THIRD ES gear and reinstall the ES.

So I definitely concur with RE 1. In my case, it was definitely the timing as I'm running a little on the rich side right now.

Want to know how to remove and reinstall the Sprag clutch unit? Just ask. I can do it in my sleep!!!!

The thing I don't like about all this is how unforgiving the Bullet is of a backfire and how expensive it can be!!!

Tom

Peter

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Re: Kick start woes.
« Reply #12 on: August 27, 2007, 12:13:59 AM »
Well yours was apparently way overadvanced.
I actually had made a mistake the evening prior to my starter gear mishap.
I had done an idle adjustment but forgot to turn in the mixture screw as a last step.
I was also in the process of ping timing after having switched to a BPR9EIX projected tip plug.
At the time time, my timing was about 2-3 degrees overadvanced (I'm now at about 27 degrees) and together with the slightly lean idle mixture: Karunck. 
It still wasn't out of whack far enough to kick back.

I turned the mixture srcew in a quarter turn - never had a problem again even with initially slightly overadvanced timing.

Peter

lunar

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Re: Kick start woes.
« Reply #13 on: August 28, 2007, 08:57:43 PM »
I hope your leg feels better by now...

I just lost my kick start lever somewhere on the highway. Was too lazy to fix the problem earlier today when I saw it needed attention... :-[

So, I will try to buy a new one...any ideas where to look?

P.S. I saw cool dude on RE, so that's 3 RE in Croatia! (he even had a jacket with "Made like a gun" on it. )


RagMan

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Re: Kick start woes.
« Reply #14 on: August 28, 2007, 10:40:29 PM »
Leg still painful, cannot start the Bullet, because I have no strength in the ankle yet, so today, I happily rode the Ural.
aka Indiana Bulleteer.
''99 Classic Bullet. '05 Ural Tourist sidecar rig, converted to 2wd. '05 Harley Davidson Sportster.
Jefferson County, WA