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Author Topic: I didn't get an answer  (Read 1834 times)

hutch

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I didn't get an answer
« on: December 18, 2008, 08:00:56 PM »
While discussing the rear fender/tire on the C-5 bike I asked a question, and got no answer. Here is the question again. Does the 18" wheeled(c-5) bike have the same transmission sprocket and rear sprocket as the 19" wheeled bike? If it does, the 18"(c-5) bike will rev higher at the same speed as the 19" wheeled bike. It will also have a lower top speed than the 19" wheeled bike. This next question may make you think that I don't believe RE is very smart, but bear with me please. Does the 18" wheeled C-5 bike have it's own front wheel speedo drive. If the 19" speedo drive is used on the 18" wheeled C-5, the speedo will read FAST.   Hutch
« Last Edit: December 18, 2008, 08:27:22 PM by hutch »
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Kevin Mahoney

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Re: I didn't get an answer
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2008, 08:06:02 PM »
My wife has been ill and I have been off-line. Yes they both have the same gearing. In theory and reality you are right about the top end etc. but i would be interested in someone (Ace?) doing the actual calculation to see if it is meaningful.
  I have no idea about the speedometer drive, but it would be a fair assumption that they thought of it.

hutch

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Re: I didn't get an answer
« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2008, 08:25:35 PM »
My wife has been ill and I have been off-line. Yes they both have the same gearing. In theory and reality you are right about the top end etc. but i would be interested in someone (Ace?) doing the actual calculation to see if it is meaningful.
  I have no idea about the speedometer drive, but it would be a fair assumption that they thought of it.
Kevin, I am sorry to hear about your wife. I have a gearing calulator, but not one for tiie size and the affects of a smaller tire with the same gearing. Ace should be able to figure it out, but I am thinking that for every full revolution of the 19 inch tire, it will cover about 3" more than the 18" tire.I could be wrong, but when you think about how many times a tire rotates in 1 mile it adds up. I used to build my own race cars, and a tire one inch taller made a lot of difference in the performance and the speedo being wrong by quite a bit.I saved a lot of money buy just using taller or shorter tires to get the performance I wanted instead of changing expensive rear differantial gears. I was hoping that RE would think of that when it came to the speedo drive, and the gearing, but the 19" back fender with 18" tire has got we wondering about them JUST A LITTLE BIT. Thank you again Kevin for letting us know that the C-5 will run higher RPM's at any given speed, and have less top end than the 19" wheeled bike. The C-5 will also get less gas mileage because of the higher RPM's.  Now all we need is for ACE to get the exact figures for us.          Hutch
« Last Edit: December 19, 2008, 02:18:28 AM by hutch »
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ace.cafe

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Re: I didn't get an answer
« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2008, 04:08:28 PM »
Okay, I'm back from holiday now.
Finally got around to seeing this question.

I don't know the actual tire dimensions on the new C5 bike, so I have to guess.
I just measured a stock 19" wheel with an Avon SM stock tire on it, and it comes out to about 26" diameter. That's a rolling circumference about 81.68".

Assuming that the new tire has a profile of the same 3.5" profile that the Avon SM has, then by reducing the diameter of the wheel by 1" would make it 25" diameter, with a rolling circumference of about 78.54".

Divide the smaller into the larger, and we get the smaller circumference being about 96% of the larger one.

So, by induction, we can estimate that the newer 18" diameter wheel/tire system will provide 96% of the older 19" one. This means the gearing will be about 4% shorter on the bikes with the smaller wheel.
I say "about" because some assumptions are being made here, which I'm not certain are correct, about the tire profile.
But, it's in the ballpark.

For reference, this would be about in the neighborhood of one more tooth on the rear sprocket, or about half a tooth less on the front sprocket.
Not a huge amount, but it's something.

However, we are not apprised of the engine primary sprocket ratio, which could affect the overall gearing ratios, and they may have different primary gearing in the new UCE that accounts for this rear wheel circumference. I don't know.

If there are numbers available which state "speeds in gears" at specific rpms of the engine, then we can have more data to go on.

If there is nothing else different, then the 18" wheel will spin up a little faster for acceleration purposes, and have a slightly lower top speed than the same bike with a 19" wheel. But, it won't be a very big difference. Probably about 3mph less at the top speed end. Better for hill climbing and acceleration, because of more mechanical advantage, but sacrificing a small bit in top speed.

As with our other bikes, a front sprocket change could give you gearing changes of a wide selection, so I don't really see a problem to it, as long as they  made some adjustment to the speedo head to account for it at the gauge. As our speedos are already reading at about 10% too fast, I don't think any further variance away from true speed would be acceptable. They need to get a handle on this speedo thing anyway, and now would be a good time to make a speedo that actually tells you your speed.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2008, 06:24:18 PM by ace.cafe »
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Kevin Mahoney

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Re: I didn't get an answer
« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2008, 05:27:08 PM »
The gearing on the new bikes is the same in every respect. It will take a while for front sprockets to become available since they are different than what is in production now (figures)

exiledcarper

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Re: I didn't get an answer
« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2008, 04:48:40 AM »
I may be missing something here, but why couldn't both bikes have the same sized wheels?

Vince

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Re: I didn't get an answer
« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2008, 04:26:41 PM »
     Please understand that the tire industry has its own logic.
     While 19 and 18 inch tires may have the same NOMINAL size, in practice the 19 inch is smaller.Example: A 19 in. tire that has a "100" mm cross section should be 4 in. wide, but in practice most will measure about 3.5 to 3.75. However an 18" tire with a "100" mm designation will measure out to a full 4 in.  Don't ask me why. This is the way it has been since before I got into this business in 1974.
     The stock 19 in. rear tire on current is a true 3.5 in. width and height for a nominal rolling diameter of 26 in. If the new tire is also a 3.5 in. tire it will be smaller. However these tires are not much more common than the 19 we now use. The common 18 in. rear tire is 4 in. high and wide, giving the same nominal rolling diameter as the 19 in. If they use a metric 100/100-18 we are still near the exact same diameter. Going to a 100/90-18 gives a ride height of 3.5 in., again 1 in. smaller diameter than the current 19.
     So yes, tire choice will have an impact on over all gearing. Four % is a really minor change. It may even enhance top speed by providing enough leverage to pull higher RPM in top gear. You can think this stuff to death. I would suggest seeing if you like it as it comes. If you don't it will be a relatively easy fix.

Cabo Cruz

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Re: I didn't get an answer
« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2008, 08:56:08 PM »
I may be missing something here, but why couldn't both bikes have the same sized wheels?

I say both bikes are downright gorgeous--it's just a matter of personal preference.  The G-5 looks a bit more modern, sleeker, etc.  The C-5, apart from the new engine, looks like... well, like a Bullet.  I like 'em both, but my heart goes to the C-5.

Bullet Bill, I offer the following clarification: The new (style and UCE) bike is the C5 and the new (Electra-framed and UCE) is the G5. 
Long live the Bullets and those who ride them!

Keep the shiny side up, the boots on the pegs and best REgards,

Papa Juan

REA:    Member No. 119
BIKE:   2004 Royal Enfield Sixty-5
NAME: Perla

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Re: I didn't get an answer
« Reply #8 on: December 29, 2008, 10:20:04 PM »
It was my thinking there were to be 3 UCE models... 
E5 - Electra UCE
C5 - Bullet UCE
G5 - New model UCE

Am I way off base here?
Chris

Cabo Cruz

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Re: I didn't get an answer
« Reply #9 on: December 29, 2008, 10:36:01 PM »
"It was my thinking there were to be 3 UCE models... 
E5 - Electra UCE
C5 - Bullet UCE
G5 - New model UCE

Am I way off base here?"  cyohman


Cyohman, the following is the Gospel according to Kevin:

OK, As promised you heard it here first. A good reason to be a member of the forum - inside information. Here is our pricing for 2009. These prices are MSRP and do NOT include shipping, set-up, taxes, bailout surcharges etc.) - just kidding about the surcharges
Bullet Classic with Lean-Burn engine - $5349
Bullet Deluxe with Lean- Burn engine - $5449
Bullet Military with Lean-Burn engine -  $5545
Bullet Electra with Lean-Burn engine -  $5745

Bullet Classic G-5 with UCE engine  -    $5995
Bullet Classic G-5 Deluxe with UCE  -    $6095
Bullet Classic C-5 with UCE engine  -    $6395

Notes: This will be the last year for the traditional Classics, Deluxes and Militaries. In 2010 we are currently scheduled to move to all UCE engines and the corresponding body styles. This will also be the last year for all drum brake bikes. The Electra, G-5 and C-5 all have a front disc brake which will become standard for all bikes in 2010.
If you want the traditional Royal Enfield this is the last year that they will be available, better get one before they are gone. As you can see there is also a substantial price difference between the Lean-Burn Bullets and the UCE Bullets.

The G-5 will get here sometime in the spring. It will initially be available as a Classic with solid paint and pinstriped fenders in Black and V. Green. The G-5 Deluxe will be available in Black and Red. The G-5 will not be available as a Military model initially.

The C-5 will be available in late spring (best case). It will be available in Turquoise, Red and Black.

Long live the Bullets and those who ride them!

Keep the shiny side up, the boots on the pegs and best REgards,

Papa Juan

REA:    Member No. 119
BIKE:   2004 Royal Enfield Sixty-5
NAME: Perla

Bullet Bill

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Re: I didn't get an answer
« Reply #10 on: December 30, 2008, 09:22:40 AM »
Ah, blast.  I did have it messed up.  Well, to avoid confusion as to why I got corrected/scolded for my ignorance, I'll leave the post as is.  In my defense, I posted very late at night, or rather very, very early in the morning.

In which case, my heart goes to the G-5.  Man... I messed up.

EDIT:  I'm curious about the new bikes' nomenclature.  I get the E-5 (Electra) and the C-5 (the newest-styled bike is technically the Bullet Classic), but the last has me bewildered.

E for Electra
C for Classic
G for... what, exactly?
« Last Edit: December 30, 2008, 09:25:22 AM by Bullet Bill »
There's something that doesn't make sense... let's go and poke it with a stick.

Blltrdr

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Re: I didn't get an answer
« Reply #11 on: December 30, 2008, 12:33:52 PM »
Ah, blast.  I did have it messed up.  Well, to avoid confusion as to why I got corrected/scolded for my ignorance, I'll leave the post as is.  In my defense, I posted very late at night, or rather very, very early in the morning.

In which case, my heart goes to the G-5.  Man... I messed up.

EDIT:  I'm curious about the new bikes' nomenclature.  I get the E-5 (Electra) and the C-5 (the newest-styled bike is technically the Bullet Classic), but the last has me bewildered.

E for Electra
C for Classic
G for... what, exactly?

 B.B., I'm pretty sure the G-5 nomenclature stands for Electra w/UCE motor!
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Re: I didn't get an answer
« Reply #12 on: December 30, 2008, 12:58:41 PM »
Cabo thanks for the post quote, I'm just trying to connect dots...

G-5 and E-5 are 19 inch, C-5 is 18. The designers were driven nuts over the mismatch between the older Bullets fender and rear tyre.

I'm just trying to figure it all out.
What I've gleaned is:

E-5 Electra UCE has the 19" - No Price listed
G-5 New Classic has the 19" - $5995, Deluxe - $6095
C-5 Bullet UCE has the 18" - $6395

Again, I'm just confused since we don't have the actual line up yet, and speculating...
Chris

Blltrdr

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Re: I didn't get an answer
« Reply #13 on: December 30, 2008, 01:22:33 PM »
Cabo thanks for the post quote, I'm just trying to connect dots...

G-5 and E-5 are 19 inch, C-5 is 18. The designers were driven nuts over the mismatch between the older Bullets fender and rear tyre.

I'm just trying to figure it all out.
What I've gleaned is:

E-5 Electra UCE has the 19" - No Price listed
G-5 New Classic has the 19" - $5995, Deluxe - $6095
C-5 Bullet UCE has the 18" - $6395

Again, I'm just confused since we don't have the actual line up yet, and speculating...

 There is going to be an Electra UCE and a lean-burn Electra plus the classic UCE in the line-up.
2003 Classic 500 5 spd
1992 Kawasaki ZG 1200 Voyager XII
1977 Yamaha XS 360-2D (Cafe Project)