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Author Topic: Cryogenic treatment for better dependability?  (Read 3912 times)

justin_o_guy

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Cryogenic treatment for better dependability?
« on: September 07, 2007, 02:04:59 PM »
The Suzuki 650 thumper has a cam chain & it is a source of trouble. Searching for an answer lead us to cryogenic treating of the chain. It hasnt been tried yet, but will be. From what I have read, cryo really helps metals handle the stresses of the jobs we give them. I wonder how much good it would do the RE engine to have it treated.. It isnt all that spendy. Google cryogenic treatment motorcycle engine parts  & anything else ya can think of.They do gun parts, machine tools, big race engines.

dewjantim

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Re: Cryogenic treatment for better dependability?
« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2007, 09:50:17 PM »
Does that mean I should take the head off my RE and freeze it just like they do for people who want to be frozen......Dew.
If it hurts, you're not dead yet!!!!!

justin_o_guy

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Re: Cryogenic treatment for better dependability?
« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2007, 09:04:32 AM »
Did you Google it & study ? I dont really get your question. 

dewjantim

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Re: Cryogenic treatment for better dependability?
« Reply #3 on: September 08, 2007, 08:02:07 PM »
Did you Google it & study ? I dont really get your question. 
Its a joke......
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justin_o_guy

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Re: Cryogenic treatment for better dependability?
« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2007, 05:01:47 AM »
Well, I am serious. Cryogenic treatment works. Whether or not it would be worth the effort on a RE is a question to be answered .I think it would be a good thing on the RE. Racers use it. Fleet owners do it. Seems like a good idea to me.  It's not like there are no maintenance issues with the RE. It might allow for a higher cruise speed without wiping the engine out.
Maybe try looking at it instead of killing the thread.

RagMan

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Re: Cryogenic treatment for better dependability?
« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2007, 05:54:24 AM »
Nobody is killing the thread, relax.
aka Indiana Bulleteer.
''99 Classic Bullet. '05 Ural Tourist sidecar rig, converted to 2wd. '05 Harley Davidson Sportster.
Jefferson County, WA

Kevin Mahoney

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Re: Cryogenic treatment for better dependability?
« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2007, 04:53:44 PM »
When my son and I used to race Quarter Midgets we would occasionaly buy cyrogenic treated connecting rods. It is a very real process with many touted benefits. I do not know enugh about it to comment on it technically though. Here is s ont information I found in
Google: http://www.nwcryo.com/motorsports.html
While I cannot vouch for the treatment I have spent money on it. We always said that if that if this weeks race winner had a dog turd on his front fender by the next week everyone would have a turd on their fender.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2007, 04:57:53 PM by Royal Enfield 1 »

dewjantim

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Re: Cryogenic treatment for better dependability?
« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2007, 07:10:14 PM »
Seems like the $10.00 here and $20.00 there for the bigger stuff and 1.50-2.00 for the small stuff would get pretty expensive to do an entire engine. Also 20 hp (see dyno graph)  seems like quite a bit of gain for tightening up a few molecules.....Dew.
If it hurts, you're not dead yet!!!!!

deejay

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Re: Cryogenic treatment for better dependability?
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2007, 09:00:04 PM »
while I thought this was complete snakeoil when I first read the post, a google search did turn up a few real world tests in which parts known to fail were subjected to cryo, beat on, and didn't fail.

my concern is when you make something harder it becomes more brittle, but I guess thats not the case with cryo treatment.

interesting stuff, thanks for posting justin.

justin_o_guy

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Re: Cryogenic treatment for better dependability?
« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2007, 09:15:53 PM »
I've been looking into this for several months. I have studied several websites & read a few articles. I am convinced it is more than "hardening" , in fact, I dont think it is hardening at all, but something that allows the structure of the atoms to realign somehow & be stronger. Whatever the mechanism is that alolows it to make things hardier, regardless of my understanding of it or lack thereof. I dont see it as voodoo or the equivalent of this weeks winners "fad". It has been being done too long & by too many people. When commercial fleets go to it, yo9u can bet they didnt just start doing it on all their fellt at one time. Would YOU, as maintenance foreman, just start spending $$ on every brake rotor in the fleet or would you do it a few vehicles & compare service life to the untreated ones? Duhhh,, doesnt take long to figure this one out. All that is required is to have a scientific mind instead of a cynical one.

DaveG297

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Re: Cryogenic treatment for better dependability?
« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2007, 11:51:54 PM »
My Bullet ES has been cryogenic treated.......it has gone thru 5 winters in Michigan.   Well. it sure runs good and has not broken down yet.......dg

Sam

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Re: Cryogenic treatment for better dependability?
« Reply #11 on: September 10, 2007, 01:26:15 PM »
From WIkipedia;

Deep Cryogenic Treatment is a material science and involves the process of reducing the temperature of components over an extended period of time to extreme cold levels. Liquid Nitrogen is a common fuel for the process being relatively inexpensive and making up more than 70% of our atmosphere thus having a reduced effect on the environment.

As the LN2 (Liquid Nitrogen) boils off from liquid to gas at around -195 degrees celsius, the components in its proximity are also cooled. The process is controlled by microprocessors in order that thermal shock is not generated at the same time resulting in damage to components.

As the material cools its molecular structure is drawn together through contraction and stress and dislocation brought about by production methods is removed or reduced. Other effects are the production of martensite, named after the German metallurgist Adolf Martens (1850-1914)in Carbon Steels, and the precipitation of Eta type Carbides.

The process has a wide range of applications from industrial tooling to improvement of musical signal transmission.

"martensite" is a family of hard crystalline structures similar to those formed in work hardening; it is an important feature of spring steel, for example. So cryogenic treatment both relieves stresses and acts as a tempering process.

Of course there is room for voodoo claims; I saw a guy at a rally selling cryogenic sparkplugs (a component that won't benefit from normalizing or tempering) and making some claims about improved energy path. It's also clearly more than just tossing parts into a vat of liquid N2.
<Insert cryptic saying by obscure author here>

dewjantim

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Re: Cryogenic treatment for better dependability?
« Reply #12 on: September 10, 2007, 01:54:52 PM »
My Bullet ES has been cryogenic treated.......it has gone thru 5 winters in Michigan.   Well. it sure runs good and has not broken down yet.......dg

Good one Dave.....Dew.
If it hurts, you're not dead yet!!!!!

gapl53

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Re: Cryogenic treatment for better dependability?
« Reply #13 on: September 10, 2007, 03:29:32 PM »
This is a real and true process that can add durability to a part.

I spent the first 18 yrs of my working life in my fathers Mold Making shop. I was a fully qualified Mold Maker and Design Engineer. I did our in house designs along with working on the bench, as we call it. We produced plastic molds and die cast dies for the medical, electrical, and recreational industry.

I believe that the process you are talking about we called Nitriding. It produce a very hard and durable surface, but it is only a surface treatment or what we called a case hardening  treatment. The longer it was in the solution the deeper it would penetrate the metal. This would leave the core of the metal at it's original hardness. This softer core would be more flexable to help adsorb shocks. The harder you make metals the more brittle they become. They are then prone to fracture, that is why you want the core to remain soft and flexable. When designing you pick the type of metal for a certain application due to the metal's traits. Then you pick how you want to harden it, if at all, to fit the application.

Sam

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Re: Cryogenic treatment for better dependability?
« Reply #14 on: September 10, 2007, 03:35:52 PM »
no, nitriding is a whole 'nother deal. Cryo treating is chilling the parts to very low (~-300F) temperature in a controlled fashion and holding it there while the stresses normalize and martensite forms. No chemical immersion, and it's an all-the-way-through process, not a surface hardening.
<Insert cryptic saying by obscure author here>

gapl53

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Re: Cryogenic treatment for better dependability?
« Reply #15 on: September 10, 2007, 03:48:05 PM »
no, nitriding is a whole 'nother deal. Cryo treating is chilling the parts to very low (~-300F) temperature in a controlled fashion and holding it there while the stresses normalize and martensite forms. No chemical immersion, and it's an all-the-way-through process, not a surface hardening.

OK! I understand now.
Been out of mold making following a different career path for the last 22 years. I am not familiar with the process but understand the principal behind it. It's not so much a hardening process as a improving durability process, by removing the stress factors in the chosen metal.
Love to learn new things so I don't feel like I wasted the day.
Thanks,
Greg

dewjantim

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Re: Cryogenic treatment for better dependability?
« Reply #16 on: September 11, 2007, 11:29:05 AM »
When my son and I used to race Quarter Midgets we would occasionaly buy cyrogenic treated connecting rods. It is a very real process with many touted benefits. I do not know enugh about it to comment on it technically though. Here is s ont information I found in
Google: http://www.nwcryo.com/motorsports.html
While I cannot vouch for the treatment I have spent money on it. We always said that if that if this weeks race winner had a dog turd on his front fender by the next week everyone would have a turd on their fender.
Hey Kevin, you got any official RE dog turds in the catalog.......I think I need one for my front fender.......Dew.
If it hurts, you're not dead yet!!!!!

DaveG297

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Re: Cryogenic treatment for better dependability?
« Reply #17 on: October 03, 2007, 01:15:47 AM »
I wasn't kidding, Dew,,,ever been here?   My 02 sits in a cold shed all winter.  I'd get pretty stiff and  hard if I did that.  Must work...........dg

dewjantim

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Re: Cryogenic treatment for better dependability?
« Reply #18 on: October 03, 2007, 02:07:02 PM »
Is it cold enough up there to freeze moonshine......Dew.
If it hurts, you're not dead yet!!!!!

DaveG297

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Re: Cryogenic treatment for better dependability?
« Reply #19 on: October 10, 2007, 12:39:40 AM »
Yup Dew, even after you drink it..........

exiledcarper

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Re: Cryogenic treatment for better dependability?
« Reply #20 on: October 11, 2007, 02:51:44 AM »
I wonder if those guys would freeze your whole bike, or maybe the motor?