First Day with my C5

[Rusty]

Well it’s arrived, firstly some decent pics

http://i421.photobucket.com/albums/pp296/Rusty854/C5/IMG_3290.jpg
http://i421.photobucket.com/albums/pp296/Rusty854/C5/IMG_3291.jpg
http://i421.photobucket.com/albums/pp296/Rusty854/C5/IMG_3292.jpg
http://i421.photobucket.com/albums/pp296/Rusty854/C5/IMG_3293.jpg
http://i421.photobucket.com/albums/pp296/Rusty854/C5/IMG_3294.jpg
http://i421.photobucket.com/albums/pp296/Rusty854/C5/IMG_3295.jpg

I’ve just had one of the most enjoyable days motorcycling I can remember. All at 40mph tops but along some great country roads.

I picked up the bike this morning with a plan to do about 100 miles today and change the oil when I got home (glad I did, more of that later). Running in consisted of 20 mile stints with a ciggie/burger break to let the engine cool and then off again.

It’s an absolute joy to ride, it felt harsh and tight when I left the dealer but even during a 100 mile session it loosened up noticeably and by the end of the day it was a lot smoother and just wanted to rev, I didn’t let it though.

After a fairly heavy T’Bird the Enfield is great fun when spirited cornering is called for, it just goes where you point it with no drama. Because of my slow speed I was reluctant to use the brakes at roundabouts so had a few ‘oh sh*t’ moments but a little more lean and round we went, oh the rear brake pedal touches down quite easily BTW.

Build quality is ‘quaint’ I’d say, start to look closely at some details and you wonder who taught Rajit to weld. The use of silver paint to cover welds where two chromed components have been joined is amusing, chrome the components, then weld, then paint over the weld. Does anyone sell copper grease (or any grease for that matter) in India? I’ve had to grease the pad retaining pins and grubscrews and will be pulling the wheel spindles tomorrow. Also 3rd to 4th can be tricky, I noticed this on the dealer’s demo bike, just need to be positive with the gear change.

I’m being a bit unfair I guess, it’s easy to find fault with the bike if you really want to but I think that’s missing the point, it’s such a blast to ride you can forgive it almost anything.

The oil and filter change at 100 miles;

What came out was black with that metallic sheen which usually means you’ll be stripping the engine in the near future. Both magnetic plugs had a mushroom of swarf on them and the gauze filter had trapped some worringly large debris but thankfully nothing metallic. I would STRONGLY advise any new EFI owners to change the oil and filter way before 300 miles. If I’d have known what was coming out of my engine I would have done it at 50, I’ll be doing it again at 200.

All in all a great day and I’m dead pleased with the bike. The day was summed up by the mother of a young child at my third burger stop. There was number of sportsbikes there and as I pulled up to order a cheeseburger she said to her daughter “oooh look there’s a real one”

I hope she was talking about the bike.

[r80rt]

It sounds like you had a fun day of it, thanks for the advice about an early oil change, I can't wait got my C5 to get here!

[r80rt]

The picts are great!

[Eamon]

Wow, that is a fantastic looking bike!  I am liking the new red color more and more.  Congratulations!

Eamon

[t120rbullet]

Good looking bike there.
I wouldn't worry about a little "metallic sheen" in the oil. As the bike gets more broken in it will become less and less.
I changed the oil in mine when it came out of the crate. And again at 300 miles and now I'm coming up to 600 and I'll change it again.
After that I'll do it at 1000 and every 1000 after that.
The 300 mile change was not that bad as far as swarf goes.
Air cooled motors are tough on oil and the black color after 100 miles should be expected.
 
As far as the Jewish Chrome (silver paint) goes old habits are hard to break and they have been doing that for a long time.

What kind of tires are they using on that bike? I see in your pics that they are Avon's but I cant see which one.

I know what you mean about being unfair finding fault with the bike. I love my Enfields so much I tend to overlook quite a bit. But on the other hand only once did I have to push one home and it's debatable that it was the bikes fault more than mine.

They had a saying about the older Enfields,
Always ill, never terminal.

Enjoy,
CJ

[UK-Classics]

Rusty - Cheers for your picture & update on yeaterdays activities. Very useful info.
I like the C5 very much & after close inspection the 'quaintness' sort of gripes me a little. I was disappointed by the welding & a few other quality points you would have hoped they may have addressed before sticking a 'premium' pricetag on it. 

What do you think of the flimsy spring/switch assembly for the footbrake? There are also some exposed electics that I thought may cause issues after prolonged bad weather.

Anyway - besides these hopefully minor issues I like the bike & will hopefully be getting one myself - I just wish they would get some of these things sorted for us fussy brits & yanks!

[skippy]

Rusty that bike of yours looks awsome in red, Yes your right regarding the build quality being quaint when I gave my new electra it's first good clean last August I was a bit put off when I gave the bike a good going over and found a few components not quite up to scratch but luckily these were only minor items, sorted out a few odds and ends but I enjoy the bike so much in time I just forgot about the other niggles.

[JamesC5]

Gorgeous bike Rusty!

Ah so it's not just me that found 3-4 tricky. I try to be quite positive with the changes in general on the C5 but still going 3-4 seems to result in the gear not engaging a bit too often.

I agree on the faults regarding build quality. I don't mind quirks and what not, but let's face it, the cost of the Bullets today versus previous years are much much higher than a few years ago, I think the quality of workmanship should also see an increase with the price.

For the UCE I've read that changing your own oil voids warranty? is this right? Also I just had a ganders at the warranty section of my manual and was shocked at this:

5. Cost of Consumables like, fuel, Oils etc, Labour, Shipping Charges of replacement parts for any warranty replacement are chargeable to the customer.

So am I right in thinking that I have to basically pay for all work done to my bike except from the actual cost of the faulty part?? That's crazy!

[Rusty]

The way I looked at the whole Enfield ownership thing was that the bike offers a riding experience that nothing else does. The engine is really key to this, had it been a ‘no flywheel’ XT500 type 500 single I wouldn’t have bought one.

I’d looked at enough REs to know that the build quality wouldn’t be great and there’s no doubt that £4.5k will buy you something that’s much better put together but it’ll be a sewing machine in line four or parallel twin, I didn’t want that.

Having said that the C5 is clearly aimed at a new market rather than existing Enfield owners and if they’re going to succeed Enfield need to sharpen up a few things. New owners who haven’t had the benefit of keeping an iron barrel or AVL going won’t put up with these foibles, they’ll expect reliability and quality of a level to justify the price tag.

As regards the oil change/warranty I was told by my dealer that it’s one year parts and labour then one year parts only. This contradicts the handbook but it is possible that the UK importers, Watsonian, take a pragmatic view and beef up the warranty. I can’t imagine them selling many bikes if owners had to contribute towards the cost of repairs in the first year.

The oil change? Well I’m glad I did it and I’m still convinced that 300 miles until the first change is too long. Again I think the supplying dealer will influence whether or not the warranty still applies, if a common sense approach is adopted there shouldn’t be a problem but if in any doubt take it to your dealer (easier said than done in the US I bet).

[Alaroyal]

Anyway - besides these hopefully minor issues I like the bike & will hopefully be getting one myself - I just wish they would get some of these things sorted for us fussy brits & yanks!

Some good points made in these comments about the fact that this bike is, when you look at it objectively, a new offering with a very premium price tag.  And, after all, it was MADE for us fussy Brits and Yanks, and that puts us in a position to complain if it doesn't meet OUR standards. 

I was gonna get one, probably a red G5, but I believe I'll wait a model year and let others be the "test bed" to sort out problems, and if that hasn't happened, by then, well, I don't have to have one.  I'll just finish putting my Electra to where I think it should have been before it left the factory.

I wish Suzuki would make a retro look model of the Savage 650 (excuse me, "Bouvelard S40"). Then I could have a look that I like, with a bike that has better power, almost without doubt far better reliability, less routine maintenance, and a belt drive, and at least 1,000 dollars less money.  You can get an S40 right now for $1500 less, and a new retro model surely couldn't cost more than 500 more than a standard.

Plus, I wouldn't feel the need to fuss with it as much.  Of course, some like to wrench, and if they do, that's fine for them, but there's a difference in working on a machine because you WANT to, and because you NEED to.

I remember the old adage about Brit bikes with Lucas electrics "ride all you like, but be home by night". That didn't happen by accident.  I enjoy riding something better than working on it, I have since I started in 1961.

I think there is a lesson here, and that is, if you want to move to a different level, and compete on a more world wide stage, you better pick up the pace.  Hundai (and others) learned that, maybe RE needs to, also.

What about farming out maybe 100 of these machines to RE owners, in the UK and the US, who ride A LOT, free of charge for 6 months. The owners would agree, up front, to perform, on their own, NOTHING other than routine maintenance, after which time the factory rounds up all the bikes and complaints, and then solves the problems at the factory level.  The bikes could then be sold for a fair price.

There's a lot to be said for getting in the game.

[abe]

My new background photo on my computer, thanks!

Sweet ride....
abe

[Kevin Mahoney]

A couple of comments
1. Because the transmission is integral with the engine when it gets it's first miles on it microscopic (some not so microscopic) particles get knocked off the gears. For the most part this is what you find in the metal screen and magnets. Much like a Ducatti. It clears up pretty quickly. Most get trapped here before it goes to the filter.  One thing that was stressed to us in training is that at every service this filter should be checked.
2. Some of the welds in the early production bikes on the frame could be called a bit unsightly. The biggest probelm is that the frame is painted and everything jumps out at you. The designer of the bike told me yesterday that he is a villain as far as the production guys go because of the colored frame. Very easy to nick etc. when assembling. The welds on later production bikes look quite a bit better, Both are strong, but because of the paint they really stand out. They are now tack welding them at the original frame manufacturer and then taking them to a new place that has robotics for finishing. Whenever a product goes from design and testing to mass production there are always challenges. Also remember this is still basically a hand made bike.
3. As far as the warranty goes, forget the book.. I can't speak for the other countries around the world but in the US it is two years parts and labor - period. I pay the warranty myself so if it blows up in my face so be it. I do not expect that to be the case.
4. The brake switch "wire connection" confused me also, but the designer told me that he did it on purpose in keeping with the period. This young Indian knows more about the gestalt of Brit bikes from any era than anyone I have ever met. He is designing some bikes that look more British than the originals did.
5. We are very aware that one can buy a good jap bike for less than the Royal Enfield. However they just don't have the cool factor, not one of them,. After riding one I would dare say that those comparisons end. I am very prejudice of course, but the there is nothing like a long stroke, pushrod single, especially with the traditionally heavy flywheels. After riding Iron barrels and Lean Burns for years the increase in power and especially torque is quite noticeable. It will really be interesting as speed parts get developed for the engine. In the US there are still the Lean-Burn bikes available  this year as well as the G-5 both of which are less expensive alternatives. With the G-5 you give up nothing in terms of performance or technology etc.
6. Like all Royal Enfields these bikes need to be meticulously prepared by the dealer and detailed. so that the new owner is not the test rider. The entire key to satisfaction with the Royal Enfield is the dealer. We have gone to great lengths to train our dealers individually in the US for the new product. We hope it all translates into a good experience for the customers.
7. We expect the reliability to be outstanding. Quite a few of these bikes were running around the world at the hands of consumers before they went in to production, Most all reliability issues were designed out of the powerplant. On the other hand is issues arise the engineers at the factory are standing by to implement fixes.
8. I would reserve judgement until you've actually ridden one. Only then will you know if it does anything for you .

[JamesC5]

Thanks for the info Kevin. Hopefully the warranty in the UK is the same. The fit and finish of the bike is ok, I think it could be of a higher standard with the higher price points, but as long as the machine is reliable then that will make up for any inflated price in the long run.

So does changing the oil yourself void warranty?

James

[ace.cafe]

Maybe it's just me, but it seems that when it gets down to deciding if you think the "welds don't look quality enough for the price", you're looking for some reason to not buy the bike, not reasons for why you want one.

And as far at the almost $7k price tag, I think it's a pretty low price, in terms of motorcycles prices.

I was actually glad to see the prices go up some, because I'm tired of people looking at the Bullet like it's some "cheap transportation bike" and not giving it due respect for what it is. And I think the comparisons against some other cheaper "commuter-econo bikes" are not valid comparisons, unless you have no partiality to the Enfield, and look at it as some "consumer utility" with no regard to its individuality and appeal.
The bottom line is that there's no other bike that comes close to the RE, for what the RE is offering. Sure, there might be cheaper bikes out there if plain vanilla is all you're looking for.

[The Garbone]

I bought my RE for the oddity factor to be sure,  I think the UCE bikes maintain that well.  In the end I think it will remain a niche bike similar to a Guzzi or Aprilla.  A good machine with smaller market share.  To be honest, a lot of folks think its a really retro Harley..

[Kevin Mahoney]

Garbone - You have crushed me. A vintage Hardly indeed! Those Johnny-come-lately's have imitated us for all of these years. On the other hand when I tell people that I import bikes 98% of the time they ask "Harley's"? I guess that is what the public knows and we should probably thank Harley for that, at least they know something. Much like Honda saved the motorcycle industry with their bikes and marketing while being vilified by us older guys. I will take it as a sideways compliment, sort of like telling your wife her butt doesn't look too big. When I go to the factory this AM I don't think I will mention it either.

[Alaroyal]

Interesting comments in this thread, also.

I've been known to blast Honda on Honda forums, Harley Davidson on HD forums, and Royal Enfield on RE forums, and to defend each of them on other forums.  It just comes with the first amendment idea.  It also doesn't seem fair to do otherwise, there's no one ready to defend the brand on an opposite forum, which almost always happens on the home forum.

I just know that whenever a person has the feeling that there is a "cool" factor about any product, especially with motorcycles, that factor is almost always subjective, and has a dollar value than transcends objectivity.  Harley Davidson has made a living out of that idea, and so does Royal Enfield.

It's a debate that can NEVER be reconciled, and depending upon perspectives, what is cool about two different machines can be viewed as outdated or glitzy, silly or rogueish, genuine or primitive, soulless or noisy, fast without purpose or slow without purpose, excessive feel or insufficient feel, overpriced or not enough for the money..........

I have no doubts at all concerning the reasons why the Japanese can make a product that is less expensive than what other companies charge, and I also understand the importance of tradition.

But I'd bet my last dollar than none of the Japanese companies have any disrespect for other companies' traditions, it's just that they are convinced they can build an objectively better machine for less money, which is a tradition in itself. Mr Honda's company has a slogan that states "performance first", and it tries mightily to stick to it.

The brand that comes to mind is Ferrari, which has as passionate a following as any in the world of internal combustion engined machines.  That obsession also commands a dear price, often far more than other, objectively similar products.  However, the price is tempered by the fact that Ferrari is often at the cutting edge of technology, which balances the cost differential.

I also have no doubt that it would be a very straightforward task for a Japanese manufacturer to build a bike that had all the right cues to give it a vintage Brit bike look and feel, but why would they want to do that, since the end result would still be a very low (relatively) volume machine?  Remember, Honda once built a 45 degree V that kicked a lot of long entrenched (HD) rear ends on AMA dirt tacks for several years, until it decided it should do something else, and that Honda recently celebrated its 50 millionth Cub, which is barely distinguishable from a 1964 model.

I guess small volume machines are best (from an economics point of view) built by smaller companies and not by big companies. But as far as Japanese machines being "commuter-econo bikes", keep in mind that for someone who truly loves that machine for its own form of individuality, that there is nothing like it.

And although I am proud of the unique factor of my RE and sidecar, and the smiles and waves from other bikers, motorists, and even pedestrians when I drive it, I also understand the position of a young man I recently met and talked to, who had a Suzuki S40 that was old enough to be called a Savage; it was obvious he thought his machine was the best thing since sliced bread.  And let's don't forget the line from the movie  "The Long Hot Summer" in which the comment is made, "one man's tonic is another man's poison."

I like my RE, I like my Honda, I like my Harley, I just wish they would all read each others' books more often; if they did, all their products would be improved, and we'd all be the better off for it.


 

[Kevin Mahoney]

You have some great points. I have always felt that the best bike you can have is the one you own. Royal Enfield sees itself as a small volume boutique manufacturer. I know the people at Moto Morini and they feel the same thing about themselves. I would guess that the Moto-Guzzi guys feel like that also. I am working with another Indian motorcycle company and they make about three times as many bikes in a year as are sold in the US in total. They are a very different process driven company. In the high quality high volume business that is the only  road to success. At Royal Enfield we still have meetings with all of the stake holders in a small room talking directly to each other about all issues. For better or worse everyone gets involved in the entire process. This is not the "clean" way to do it, but it is where the soul of the company comes from. Only the market will determine if this is still a workable way to produce bikes in this time and age.
At a company like Harley, I would guess that their marketing department is bigger than the all of Royal Enfield. You cannot accuse them of building bikes without some kind of "soul" using their method. You can take me to task for that statement, but nothing speaks like success. Anyone that thinks that Jap bikes don't have an emotional following does't follow how hot the 1960,s 1970,s Vintage Jap bike market is.
For better or worse here are some examples of  how many issues get taken care of at Enfield. The picture with two young guy in it Sarv and Hari show the two Senior Engineers who headed up engine design and the EFI design. They are shown in our shop training a groups of our dealers on the new equipment. A bigger company would have sent "trainers", but at our size we had to send the main guys. Now each of our dealers has a direct line to the designers at the factory with no filter.
The next picture is an all company meeting about quality in the US market. We have been following the first 100 UCE bikes very carefully VIN by VIN. We have taken the observations of our dealers and customers on each bike and put it into a visual presentation. To involve the workforce, they stop production, bring everyone in the entire company to the shop floor and go over this data point by point. Good or bad - who knows, but it is our way of doing it.
  The last picture is from a meeting I had with all of the heads of the various departments about quality. We went over our concerns and the concerns of our customers part by part and worked out solutions or paths to solutions right then and there. Not very process driven, but for us it works. Note: you may note that the long silencer seems to be the point of much of our discussions). My point (Thank God he is finally getting to it) is that what workesfor one company is totally inappropriate for another and vice versa. This gives you a bit if insight into the heart of Royal Enfield for better or worse.

[UK-Classics]

James - I’d give your dealer a ring today & enquire about the oil change. Can’t see there being a problem as long as you use the recommended oil.

On the warranty issue (within the UK) – 1st year is parts & labour, 2nd year parts only. That’s pretty good, I’m sure if there are any major issues the dealers & importers will be keen to rectify & keep the customers happy.

[UK-Classics]

Maybe it's just me, but it seems that when it gets down to deciding if you think the "welds don't look quality enough for the price", you're looking for some reason to not buy the bike, not reasons for why you want one.

Ace - I think you miss the point – when you are paying a higher price you compare with the competition – Ok you could argue there is no ‘direct’ competition (single cylinder pushrod ‘retro’) but there is now only a small price difference (certainly within UK) with other retro machines like the Bonnie or entry HD sportsta or Guzzi classic (a bit more still).

The reason most of us are on this forum is because we generally prefer RE to the other marques – we all want the company & the new models to succeed (& it will) but when you pay hard cash (& a fair wack at that) for something you expect some of the basics to be right straight from the box.

Kevin's comments reassure me that this company is working hard to resolve some of these issues.

[Alaroyal]

Kevin;

Thanks for the interesting comments, and the photos of your process.  Before I became a college professor, I was a 31 year professional firefighter, and for the last 16 years of that, in administrative positions.  The important parallel is that it was a small department.

All the things we did were the same things that a huge department did; inspections, community outreach, fire suppression, emergency medicine, apparatus maintenance/repair, staffing decisions, dispatch, etc., but how we went about the underlying specifics were very different.  Same thing with Enfield; some of the process has to be different because of size.

I just wish that Honda, for example, had the personable and close interraction between top engineers and people in the field as you do, and that Enfield had the high end technical capabilities to improve performance like Honda. 

If that were possible, for example, the bullet could have DOHC, 4 valves per cylinder, three layed FI mapping, nik a sil coated pistons, 650 CC, and still look and sound just like it does now, but with about 50 foot lbs of torque. Wouldn't THAT be fun?  Plus, someone who was a senior engineer would be able to talk with field mechanics and customers face to face.

I just hope that very quickly the inevitable problems attendant with a new product can be resolved on the C and G bikes, so they quickly become pretty much (no pun intended) "bulletproof".

[ace.cafe]

Maybe it's just me, but it seems that when it gets down to deciding if you think the "welds don't look quality enough for the price", you're looking for some reason to not buy the bike, not reasons for why you want one.

Ace - I think you miss the point – when you are paying a higher price you compare with the competition – Ok you could argue there is no ‘direct’ competition (single cylinder pushrod ‘retro’) but there is now only a small price difference (certainly within UK) with other retro machines like the Bonnie or entry HD sportsta or Guzzi classic (a bit more still).

The reason most of us are on this forum is because we generally prefer RE to the other marques – we all want the company & the new models to succeed (& it will) but when you pay hard cash (& a fair wack at that) for something you expect some of the basics to be right straight from the box.

Kevin's comments reassure me that this company is working hard to resolve some of these issues.

Well, certainly I'm not arguing for cobbly welds. I'd be quite happy with nice welds.

As for the competition:

Here's the 2009 Triumph Bonneville "Black" which is the $7799 version.


Here's the 2009 C5 at ~$7000



Here's the 2009 Harley Sportster 883 "Iron" for about $7600-$8000


And the 2009 Moto Guzzi V7 Classic at about $8500.



What do you think?
I'm thinking that the C5 is looking pretty darn good in that class of cycles.

My impressions?
Triumph's lowest priced Bonnie. The 17" cast wheels look silly. "Black-out" job looks cheap. Nice seat. "Swirly" spokes on the front disc brake are hideous, and totally out of place on the bike.  I think the models from a couple years earlier looked better. Not a good showing from Triumph with this model. Limited Edition models at higher prices look a bit better, but are a thousand bucks more.
The Harley looks pretty cool in all black, and I kinda like it.  Headlight looks a bit odd. Cool fork gaiters. Seems a bit "chopper-esque" but that's expected on a  Harley. Has a belt drive. Not too bad a price for the package.
Both of them are "blacked out" to save costs, and aren't available in colors for the low price model. Basically, they are "entry level" models.
The RE has brightwork, wire wheels, nice colors, and looks plenty good. Smallest engine of the bunch, and the lowest price. Clearly by far, the most "retro". Top of the model line-up from RE.
The Guzzi has a nice seat, wire wheels, and some vague reminiscence of the older V7. Obviously a "re-bodied Breva".  Has a shaft drive. Not bad. Most expensive price of the bunch.

.

[Cabo Cruz]

Br. Ace, that's a pretty good selection of bikes.  But, to your point, even if I had all four of the bikes, I would ride the C5 more often than the others -- been there, done that.   

[Cabo Cruz]

Br. Rusty, I send you a WOWZAA for the gorgeous red bike and a separate WOWZAA for the photos!

[r80rt]

I just sold a 05 Bonnie black to buy a C5, I rode my buddy's 09 Sportster, hated it. I've always liked Guzzi's and that classic is very nice. All of them are nice, but only one catches my eye and makes me want it.

[flintweld]

Rusty,
Congrats on a beautiful bike. And thanks for the best
C5 pics that I've seen to date.

Ace,
Thanks for the head to head comparison of the
"competition", very informative.

Flint

[The Garbone]

Ace,  you forgot the Thruxton..




Sweet....


I bought my RE because it was a bike I could wrench on and make my own, and only cost $4500 new (and the lady of the house loved the look)...     I have taken a C5 for a spin and it was great,  time will tell how things go.  But one thing is for sure,  as gas prices go us and the threat of Cap and Trade taxing energy even more, fuel efficient bikes will sell..  I can ride my RE around town and to work for a week for $6...  Not to shabby...

[Cabo Cruz]

"I have taken a C5 for a spin and it was great..."  The Garbone 

Br. Gary, where did you manage to take a C5 for a spin?

[ace.cafe]

Ace,  you forgot the Thruxton..

Sweet....


I bought my RE because it was a bike I could wrench on and make my own, and only cost $4500 new (and the lady of the house loved the look)...     I have taken a C5 for a spin and it was great,  time will tell how things go.  But one thing is for sure,  as gas prices go us and the threat of Cap and Trade taxing energy even more, fuel efficient bikes will sell..  I can ride my RE around town and to work for a week for $6...  Not to shabby...

Yes, the Thrux is nice. But I still like the Bullet better!

Ya know, now that you bring up the new energy tax thing, maybe I should start developing a "small port" head and some "tractor cams" for the Bullet, to use with a 24mm Mikarb!
Can I copy the cam profiles off of your Ford 8N?

And if it really starts getting expensive for fuel, maybe Kevin will start importing  the 350!

[The Garbone]

"I have taken a C5 for a spin and it was great..."  The Garbone 

Br. Gary, where did you manage to take a C5 for a spin?

Ahh,,,  G5 ,, C5....  its still confuses me... Why not call them the the 19 and the 18 or the Basic and the Classic...

  It smacks of Suzukis M40 S40 S50 naming convention... Or better yet BMW's and the F650 ,G650,  GS650 ...bla bla bla..   Some made in China and a 650 some made in Germany and a 900 or something like that....   


/rant

[Cabo Cruz]

Hey, Br. Gary, you could've been in the UK for a few days...   

[t120rbullet]

Ahh,,,  G5 ,, C5....  its still confuses me... Why not call them the the 19 and the 18 or the Basic and the Classic...

Alphabet bikes, just clump em all together as one.
CJ

[UK-Classics]

Maybe it's just me, but it seems that when it gets down to deciding if you think the "welds don't look quality enough for the price", you're looking for some reason to not buy the bike, not reasons for why you want one.

Ace - I think you miss the point – when you are paying a higher price you compare with the competition – Ok you could argue there is no ‘direct’ competition (single cylinder pushrod ‘retro’) but there is now only a small price difference (certainly within UK) with other retro machines like the Bonnie or entry HD sportsta or Guzzi classic (a bit more still).

The reason most of us are on this forum is because we generally prefer RE to the other marques – we all want the company & the new models to succeed (& it will) but when you pay hard cash (& a fair wack at that) for something you expect some of the basics to be right straight from the box.

Kevin's comments reassure me that this company is working hard to resolve some of these issues.

Well, certainly I'm not arguing for cobbly welds. I'd be quite happy with nice welds.

As for the competition:

Here's the 2009 Triumph Bonneville "Black" which is the $7799 version.


Here's the 2009 C5 at ~$7000



Here's the 2009 Harley Sportster 883 "Iron" for about $7600-$8000


And the 2009 Moto Guzzi V7 Classic at about $8500.



What do you think?
I'm thinking that the C5 is looking pretty darn good in that class of cycles.
.

Ace - thanks for the pics. I generally agree with your summary of these other bikes. The bonnie has gone all 70's with the wheels - not so pretty but a fairly practical everyday bike. The HD iron looks good (for a HD), the guzzi very nice but a bit more money still.

I guess all these other bikes are twins - the cost of ownership e.g. fuel, insurance, servicing, parts etc etc will with out a doubt be significantly cheaper with the C5 over the long run.
The C5 certainly stands out as being different from the rest of the bunch (in my eyes)

I think now, for the first time RE is competing for customers alongside the 'big boys' in the 'retro market' & guys (& gals) will be comparing these bikes alongside each other.

The C5 offers me something completly different from the others 

[UK-Classics]

This give you a bit if insight into the heart of Royal Enfield for better or worse.

Kevin - many thanks for giving us that insight into the 'inner sanctum' of RE. I think you conveyed this very well. It seems they are a small company with a fairly 'flat' structure - I'm pleased that they are operating in the way they do & you deal on a day to day basis with the people that can make the changes to keep the export customers happy. I couldn't see this happening with any other bike manufacturer at this level.

You & your US dealers seem to be way ahead of how the UK importers & (some) dealers aRe operating (although things are certainly improving). Your G5 looks so much better than the UK version (E5) - you are going the extra mile & attention to detail is noticably better.

[Kevin Mahoney]

Another way to look at it is that the big boys are now competing against Royal Enfield for a piece of the retro market!! All of them are youngsters compared to us. For what it's worth, every last one of them is a nice bike, but the more I look the more differences I see. I own a  a 2002 Bonnie myself and do not see it in the same light as an Enfield. Very nice bike with a nice look, runs good. Turns heads but not as much as an Enfield,. Capable of freeway work, not a great idea for longer period of time. To me the Guzzi's are nice just because they are pushrod engines and have a "cool factor". Don't much care for the Sporster, but judged againt their sales I am odd man out on this one.

[Alaroyal]

Another way to look at it is that the big boys are now competing against Royal Enfield for a piece of the retro market!! All of them are youngsters compared to us.  Don't much care for the Sporster, but judged againt their sales I am odd man out on this one.

The real problem about the comparisons between all these bikes is that the complaints are all very subjective in nature.  If you showed the same line up to any afficianado of those individual brands, they would lump the Enfield with all the other bikes and say, for example, the Guzzi was the best.

Also, I wouldn't call HD exactly a youngster, Enfield has maybe 3 or 4 years out of over 100 years more time in the saddle?  And what about some Japanese bikes?  The Suzuki Savage, excuse me, S40 certainly belongs, as do the Kaw 500 twin Vulcan and the Honda VLX 600. (which may both be gone), or do we just discount Japanese bikes out of hand?

I've heard HD lovers, for decades, simply dismiss everybodies' bikes as not being the "read McCoy", and you can't press them on objectivity, they simply justify price, or anything else, on the basis that "It's a harley davidson, man, and if I have to explain, you'll never know."

Well, I'm gonna have to kinda drop out of this, because when we disagree, and I appreciate that on this forum there are many who believe the old adage "We can disagree without being disagreeable" but the debate is informed by subjective factors only, it simply becomes an exercise in futility.

When they were new, and could be bought "cheap", for $652,000.00, was a Ferrari Enzo really worth almost three times the price of a Lamborghini Diablo, or over 8 times the price of a Ford GT?  (keeping in mind Ford has just a smidgen of racing heritage, of its own?) 

Of course not, except that the Ferrari prancing horse has a very high value, at least to the faithful.

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the value of subjective discussions, but there is simply no end, until everybody folds their arms, says to themselves, about his or her favorite brand, "I know I'm right", and walks away.

I preach the praises of all my brands,  but I also understand the OBJECTIVE nature of their existence, and will, in a heartbeat, clearly lay out the negatives of that existence.  I can, and upon request, will  be happy to talk about very OBJECTIVE negatives of my Sportster, my Gold Wing, and my Electra.

I understand that that is probably the essence of being a biker, that one is proud of his choice of weapon because of a name, I'm just glad I can evaluate objectively, also, and that I often feel that surge of pride because I know it is partly based on things that can be quantified, and not just qualified.

A short while back, I pulled up to a red light beside a noisy Ultra Classic, looked over and waved to the rider, and got a cold stare back.  I just shrugged, cause that rarely happens anymore, but when the light turned green, and he really punched it, I did too, and in a few seconds me and my Gold Wing were so far ahead of him that I didn't have to listen to the noise.

Will he decide a Honda is better because of that - no, and he shouldn't , but I laugh when I think he believes his machine is superior IN SPITE of it. As the kids say these days, "give me a break".

[ace.cafe]

Sorry about that.

Here's the 2009 Suzuki C40 650 at ~$4900



And the 2009 Kawasaki "Vulcan" 500 at ~$5500.


And the Honda VLX 600 is no longer available.

Here's the 2009 Suzuki TU-250 at ~$3800




I think these bikes are common enough to speak for themselves, so I won't make any comment. The TU250 is a newer release in the US though, and has gotten some attention.

.

[Alaroyal]

The old 650 Suzi has been around for quite awhile, except for a short hiatus, that bike has been built for maybe over 20 years, now.

Thanks, and you're right about the TU250.  It is, in my VERY SUBJECTIVE OPINION, 
in several ways prettier than the Savage.  Very nice curves on the tank and side cover, beautiful exhaust, appealing shapes f and r fenders, and most certainly a tempting price.

Plus I really like the split passenger/pillion two piece seat.  That opens up a lot of possibilities, such as a really pretty back fender being exposed, a nice spring front saddle, a one- up bike with a tour trunk or rack over the rear fender, etc., let your imagination do the rest.

All it needed was a narrow belt drive; made of carbon fiber it could have been no wider than probably 3/4 inch, since it only has 250 CC to handle. Or for commonality of parts to save costs, if the length could have been worked out, based on swing arm length and different ratio requirements, it could have shared the S40 belt, but.......

 

[Cabo Cruz]

Although the TU250X has a single cylinder, it could pass for a small-engined Norton Commando because of the 70s looks and the inclined cylinder.  It is a nice bike in the flesh.  The TU's dimensions are similar to the Bullet's dimensions, with the exception of the dry weight (308 lbs.).  It's been selling in Europe for some three years and it's been getting good reviews.  Irrespective of my tries, I could not talk the dealer into a test ride.  So, my assessment of the bike stops here. 

[ace.cafe]

It took me a while, but I finally figured out why the looks of the TU250 just weren't "right".
It seemed like I should like it better, but I just couldn't.

And now I know why.
If you look at that TU250, the engine sits too high in the frame. And they even cant the engine forward, to get it even higher.

That TU250 is a dirt bike in street clothes.

[Rusty]

Latest update;

250 miles covered now, skipped the planned 200 oil change because I got carried away with riding. 50 to go before first stamped service so I won’t bother now.

Engine is loosening all the time and really wants to rev. I’m keeping it at 40-45 swapping gears to vary the engine speed. Laboured the engine a couple of times to see how the torque’s shaping up, very nicely thanks and the exhaust note even better, but I can’t do it too often. Bloody hard to resist though.

Discovered that the front footrests can be rotated on their fixings and so have been able to get a comfortable distance between footrests and brake/gear pedals. Most fasteners have been tightened by Thor and all need lubing when re-assembled.

3rd to 4th is still tricky, particularly when the engine is cold. I couldn’t get 4th without dropping back to 3rd on the first two tries tonight. A lot better when the engine’s up to temp but it still happens. I’ll make my dealer aware at the first service but if it persists after 500 miles or so the bike will be going back to the dealer, that should be sufficient miles for a selector mechanism to loosen up. I’m surprised that no G5 owners have reported the same problem.

Front loom routed around the right of the headstock chafes on the nacelle and will need sorting if impromptu BBQs are to be avoided. Similarly the battery terminals although well insulated with rubber shrouds are tight against the battery cover. In time vibes will wear through the insulation. 

Miles per gallon is astronomical at running in speeds and the 80mpg claim in normal use is entirely achievable I think.

Still enjoying holding up the traffic.

[Eamon]

It took me a while, but I finally figured out why the looks of the TU250 just weren't "right".
It seemed like I should like it better, but I just couldn't.

And now I know why.
If you look at that TU250, the engine sits too high in the frame. And they even cant the engine forward, to get it even higher.

That TU250 is a dirt bike in street clothes.

They have sold a version of it overseas for years called the TU250 "Grasstracker."
Check out this link and scroll down a little ways:

http://www.suzukicycles.org/2000-2009/2002e.shtml

I actually like that version better!

Eamon

[ace.cafe]

Latest update;

250 miles covered now, skipped the planned 200 oil change because I got carried away with riding. 50 to go before first stamped service so I won’t bother now.

Engine is loosening all the time and really wants to rev. I’m keeping it at 40-45 swapping gears to vary the engine speed. Laboured the engine a couple of times to see how the torque’s shaping up, very nicely thanks and the exhaust note even better, but I can’t do it too often. Bloody hard to resist though.

Discovered that the front footrests can be rotated on their fixings and so have been able to get a comfortable distance between footrests and brake/gear pedals. Most fasteners have been tightened by Thor and all need lubing when re-assembled.

3rd to 4th is still tricky, particularly when the engine is cold. I couldn’t get 4th without dropping back to 3rd on the first two tries tonight. A lot better when the engine’s up to temp but it still happens. I’ll make my dealer aware at the first service but if it persists after 500 miles or so the bike will be going back to the dealer, that should be sufficient miles for a selector mechanism to loosen up. I’m surprised that no G5 owners have reported the same problem.

Front loom routed around the right of the headstock chafes on the nacelle and will need sorting if impromptu BBQs are to be avoided. Similarly the battery terminals although well insulated with rubber shrouds are tight against the battery cover. In time vibes will wear through the insulation. 

Miles per gallon is astronomical at running in speeds and the 80mpg claim in normal use is entirely achievable I think.

Still enjoying holding up the traffic.

Rusty,
Great report.
Sounds like you're having a fantastic time with your new bike!

[t120rbullet]

3rd to 4th is still tricky, particularly when the engine is cold. I couldn’t get 4th without dropping back to 3rd on the first two tries tonight. A lot better when the engine’s up to temp but it still happens. I’ll make my dealer aware at the first service but if it persists after 500 miles or so the bike will be going back to the dealer, that should be sufficient miles for a selector mechanism to loosen up. I’m surprised that no G5 owners have reported the same problem.

My upshifts are flawless, equal to some of the best gearboxes to be had.
My downshifts are another story. I think the problem is mostly a operator headspace problem though.
Bike hasn't trained operator correctly yet but I am getting better at it.
CJ

[Cabo Cruz]

Good show; bloody good show, Br. Rusty!   

Please keep those letters and postcards coming... 

[Cabo Cruz]

"They have sold a version of it overseas for years called the TU250 "Grasstracker."
Check out this link and scroll down a little ways:

http://www.suzukicycles.org/2000-2009/2002e.shtml

I actually like that version better!"  Eamon

I do too, Br. Eamon.   

[UK-Classics]

Rusty - thanks for your latest update, glad your enjoying the experience - the real fun should start when she is run in.
Useful detail on the footrests & loom - cheers

[Alaroyal]

It took me a while, but I finally figured out why the looks of the TU250 just weren't "right".
It seemed like I should like it better, but I just couldn't.

And now I know why.
If you look at that TU250, the engine sits too high in the frame. And they even cant the engine forward, to get it even higher.

That TU250 is a dirt bike in street clothes.

They have sold a version of it overseas for years called the TU250 "Grasstracker."
Check out this link and scroll down a little ways:

http://www.suzukicycles.org/2000-2009/2002e.shtml

I actually like that version better!

Eamon

The EU gets some really nice bikes we can't get in the US.  Honda is really bad about it.  I believe Harley could sell a lot of their Buell engine bikes in a form  like the "Grasstracker", in XR1200 or 883 Iron or 1200 Nightster trim.

The difference is the TU 250 in the EU is a twin, the US TU 250 is a single. Maybe its the same case with a twin jug and head and crank, but there is a twin 250 here, the GZ 250:

Modification alert:  I just checked closer, and apparently the engines are all the same, but some of them have a dual exhaust setup (2-1) from a single cylinder  SORRY !
 

if the pic doesn't show, here's the link:
http://www.suzukicycles.com/Product%20Lines/Cycles/Products/GZ250/2009/GZ250.aspx?category=standard
I like it too, but maybe the single better.

[r80rt]

I taught my wife to ride on a GZ 250, it was  a pretty tough little bike. Now she bombs around on 650 Savage with a big grin on her face.

[Rusty]

Latest update;

350 miles now so the bike will be going in for its first dealer service (and second oil change) on Tuesday.

Correctly fitted battery with terminals facing inwards, the positive lead to the starter solenoid has to be rotated through (thru?) 180 degrees to get enough slack. Once done the lead can then be routed behind the battery box to the terminal. It’s still tight clearance for the earth lead but the positive doesn’t foul anything now.

Taking hands off bars would have the bike veering to the right badly. Snail cam adjusters on rear wheel were at completely different settings. I know these are not 100% accurate but the difference between right and left was huge so I equalled them adjusting chain at the same time. It’s better but still not right so wheel alignment will be checked on Tuesday.

Big hiatus yesterday morning before daily ride. Turing the key resulted in nothing lighting up. All fuses were ok so I thought there must be a main fuse hidden somewhere. Battery out, seat off, manual checked, nothing. I remembered my dads old adage “if your bike doesn’t start first thing to check is the last thing you worked on”. I was sceptical because I’d only greased the clutch lever pivot the night before but while looking around the front of the bike I noticed a block connector in the headlight had separated. Joining it up solved the problem, full left lock and it separated again. Another case of bad routing so for the cost of a couple of skinned knuckles the wiring was re routed. Two hours riding time lost.

Engine & gearbox continue to improve, gearchanges are becoming slicker particularly 3/4 which hasn’t missed on my last couple of rides. Hard to keep the bike at 40 now so cruising speed has been increased to 50 for longer periods, still feels tight on the few times I’ve used more than ½ throttle so running in will continue for a while yet. The way it’s running at the moment I’d be confident that it could handle another tooth on the gearbox sprocket, we’ll see once it’s all loosened up.

Idle speed is too high for a big single imo but the manual doesn’t mention adjustment so I don’t know if it can be.

Still brilliant and still very glad that I bought it.

[r80rt]

Thanks for the review, man I'll be happy when they hit our shores.

[voudou]

As for the competition:

Here's the 2009 Triumph Bonneville "Black" which is the $7799 version.


Here's the 2009 C5 at ~$7000



Here's the 2009 Harley Sportster 883 "Iron" for about $7600-$8000


And the 2009 Moto Guzzi V7 Classic at about $8500.



What do you think?
I'm thinking that the C5 is looking pretty darn good in that class of cycles.

My impressions?
Triumph's lowest priced Bonnie. The 17" cast wheels look silly. "Black-out" job looks cheap. Nice seat. "Swirly" spokes on the front disc brake are hideous, and totally out of place on the bike.  I think the models from a couple years earlier looked better. Not a good showing from Triumph with this model. Limited Edition models at higher prices look a bit better, but are a thousand bucks more.
The Harley looks pretty cool in all black, and I kinda like it.  Headlight looks a bit odd. Cool fork gaiters. Seems a bit "chopper-esque" but that's expected on a  Harley. Has a belt drive. Not too bad a price for the package.
Both of them are "blacked out" to save costs, and aren't available in colors for the low price model. Basically, they are "entry level" models.
The RE has brightwork, wire wheels, nice colors, and looks plenty good. Smallest engine of the bunch, and the lowest price. Clearly by far, the most "retro". Top of the model line-up from RE.
The Guzzi has a nice seat, wire wheels, and some vague reminiscence of the older V7. Obviously a "re-bodied Breva".  Has a shaft drive. Not bad. Most expensive price of the bunch.

.

I have been reading through this thread and came up to Ace's post with prices of the competition. Just for a FYI, here is the deal in Greece... The Royal Enfield C5 costs 5800 euro, The HD Sportster Iron - 10900 euro and the Triumph Bonnie - 8600 euro. I don't know about the Moto Guzzi, But I am sure that it is up there... So in Greece, the RE is way lower in price than the competition. I was interested in the HD iron (a beautiful bike) but I can get myself a slightly used 4x4 jeep with that kind of money... And the Enfield (let's face it) is more unique on the road (something that I like quite a bit). With that being said, RE has won me by a margin. (Mind you, I still haven't put my order in yet... But I am CLOSE!!!!!!!!!!)

Cheers everyone....
With that said, I guess the small

[r80rt]

Go for it 

[voudou]

You're a bad influence r80t!!! 
Just kidding. 
My heart is all over the RE C5, but the only thing keeping me still is this damn economic crisis going on... It's hit Greece a bit late and we are now feeling the pressure of it...
I am just a bit worried, that's all.... But in the end, I know I will "force" myself to get her!

[r80rt]

Yeah the economy is tough, I got lucky and sold my Triumph and that made the C5 purchase fairly easy. Buying a new bike will actually help the economy! 

[Leonard]

Those are all nice looking classic style bikes but I don't see how you can compare them with the single cylinder C-5.  To my way of thinking there is nothing to compare it to, even the other singles, KLR, DR, S-40, etc, have a different type of engine.  You just don't get the thump with the light flywheel, high reving motor. 

[Eamon]

Those are all nice looking classic style bikes but I don't see how you can compare them with the single cylinder C-5.  To my way of thinking there is nothing to compare it to, even the other singles, KLR, DR, S-40, etc, have a different type of engine.  You just don't get the thump with the light flywheel, high reving motor. 

Yup. Bullets (old or new) are in a class all their own!

Eamon