What if?

[Ice]

No worries Geoff.
 I did not take LJ's  race comment as personally directed. I deduce its his take from his perspective more or less, on a generalization of a segment of the populace.
 
 Also no dogmatici anything in my mind. Just wish obama's lawyers would release the documents. That would answer the questions once and for all.
 What would the harm be if there was nothing to hide?

[LJRead]

Certainly, I did not refer to anyone here as 'racist' but only wished to point out that some, at least, of the constant barrage of criticism that Obama is exposed to has a racist base, or is contributed to by racism.  Over the years, even in my long tenure in universities, I have often been appalled at the racism expressed by colleagues.  Like I said, it runs deep.  It crept out a few times during the election campaign, but most treated it like the hot potato it is.  McCain refused to be a part of it, Rush Linbaugh was right in there making racist waves.

There is only one way to lose your U.S. citizenship if you are one naturally born, and that is to renounce it.  Thus, Obama could have been given foreign citizenship at the request of his parent or step parent, and that would not remove his U.S. citizenship.  I have been told by U.S. consulate members that if I want to hold dual citizenship, just don't make an issue of it to U.S. authorities, but even then they simply might not accept the foreign citizenship as valid, but the U.S. one certainly remains valid - so all this rubbish is smoke and mirrors.

My verifiable facts come direct from a horse's mouth, the U.S. Ambassador serving Tonga.

The fact that Obama had an American mother gives him American citizenship regardless of what other citizen ships might have been conferred.  You can google all sorts of opinion and rubbish these days, and you can even pass it on in the guise of truth, but the law is the law.

There is a new generation coming which is far more free in its thoughts than the older ones, but the older ones hold most of the power, and racism plays a part.

I can't imagine anything that his lawyers would want to hide, except maybe they wish to keep some modicum of personal privacy for their client.    

[LJRead]

OK, just a further note.  Indonesia is like Tonga in that (it used to be) you had to turn in your U.S. passport if you applied for and were given Tongan citizenship.  But that is an issue outside of the U.S., and, as I said, the U.S. authorities could care less about issues pertaining to Indonesia or Tonga or most other places.  Thus, the Indonesian authorities could consider Obama an Indonesian citizen if he, in fact, renounced his U.S. citizenship to them, but the U.S. authorities would still mark him down as one of ours.  He would have to actively renounce it to the U.S. authorities, and, I am quite sure, that with Bush controlling things from the WH, if he had ever done so, they would have made an issue of it.

What bothers me is just what Goeff alluded to, this constant implication that because of his middle name and foreign parentage, Obama is a Muslim, which many Africans an Indonesians are.  Thus is they can disparage his citizenship, they can firm up their evil intent to portray him as a Muslim and a black one at that.  Pretty stupid stuff, isn'e it?

In the democracy thread that clamp started, I posted a letter from a 4th grade teacher that was, IMO, racist to the core, yet said nothing overt about racism.  This is exactly what I mean about the racist undercurrent.  The letter was emailed to me by an old HS classmate and he and one other took it as a reasonable letter that said it all (what they too believed).  I fired back at them and doubt if I'll ever hear from them again.  I won't put up with racist bullshit - too many dear friends who are people 'of color' that I admire and love - including my dear wife and two of my dear children. 

[Ice]

Certainly, I did not refer to anyone here as 'racist' but only wished to point out that some, at least, of the constant barrage of criticism that Obama is exposed to has a racist base, or is contributed to by racism.  Over the years, even in my long tenure in universities, I have often been appalled at the racism expressed by colleagues.  Like I said, it runs deep.  It crept out a few times during the election campaign, but most treated it like the hot potato it is.  McCain refused to be a part of it, Rush Linbaugh was right in there making racist waves.

There is only one way to lose your U.S. citizenship if you are one naturally born, and that is to renounce it.  Thus, Obama could have been given foreign citizenship at the request of his parent or step parent, and that would not remove his U.S. citizenship.  I have been told by U.S. consulate members that if I want to hold dual citizenship, just don't make an issue of it to U.S. authorities, but even then they simply might not accept the foreign citizenship as valid, but the U.S. one certainly remains valid - so all this rubbish is smoke and mirrors.

My verifiable facts come direct from a horse's mouth, the U.S. Ambassador serving Tonga.

The fact that Obama had an American mother gives him American citizenship regardless of what other citizen ships might have been conferred.  You can google all sorts of opinion and rubbish these days, and you can even pass it on in the guise of truth, but the law is the law.

There is a new generation coming which is far more free in its thoughts than the older ones, but the older ones hold most of the power, and racism plays a part.

I can't imagine anything that his lawyers would want to hide, except maybe they wish to keep some modicum of personal privacy for their client.    

Hi JL.
 
 I still think the documents should have been released. That would have nipped the question in bud. Instead the DNC has had access to them blocked at the cost of millions. Why ? For what purpose ?  McCain had no problem releasing his service records containing far more personal and medical information than a birth certificate or a passport. Why do people keep secrets ? To hide things.

 Decisions made and verdicts rendered on those type of matters are not made under current law but on the applicable law(s) at the time the event occurred.

 The DNC likes to dismiss the question as a race issue. That tactic can be very affective as that subject is indeed a hot potato topic for many.

The citizenship question remains in the minds of many. It is still unanswered.
It will remain so until the documents are released.
To free thinkers and seekers of truth it remains a quest for truth.

Like you LJ I don't put up with racist BS. I don't use mine as a crutch either, although I could.

[geoffbaker]

thanks Ice, I'm glad you did not take it that way.

Here's a thought.

Any debate on this issue is and should be entirely open and free and as you say that is what truth-seeking is.

And the RNC and its allies had about two years, and plenty of money, to do their research.

In January 2009, Obama was sworn in as President.

From that moment on, continuing to try to argue this case, and make an issue of it....

1)  Impugns the office and status of the Presidency of the United States
2) negatively affects the morale of our men and women serving our Commander and Chief, throughout the world, our soldiers, diplomats and covert operatives
3) damages the stature and standing of the United States in the eyes of the world
4) aids and abets our enemies both domestic and abroad
5) emboldens our enemies in our conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan

and for these reasons, is of course, treason.


Leastways...

if we were talking about a Republican president... this is what I would be hearing, every day, from people of your political persuasion... of this, I am absolutely and utterly convinced. Funny, isn't it?

[LJRead]

Maybe I don't understand what you are getting at, Ice.  To me it is a non-issue.  If the documents in question were to be released, and if they said that the Indonesian or the African authorities had given Obama citizenship, many would take it that he had lost his American citizenship and was no longer a citizen, which clearly is not true.  So perhaps they didn't want to muddy the waters of what they too saw as a non-issue, but one that could be misconstrued.  

Time to get on with the long pull ahead of us.

And talk about misconstruing.  What about the stupidity over Obama's middle name, Hussein.  What was it that some lady said about Obama during the campaign?  That he was a Muslim, I think she said, and McCain corrected her and followed up by saying Obama is a good man.  It is these radical fringe elements that will allow themselves to be stirred up by a middle name or such that scares me and may scare the DNC.

So you are saying that by releasing these documents, whatever they say, the DNC would be clearing the air.  They probably think they would be allowing an issue out of something that shouldn't be made an issue of. 

It is sort of like the videos of prisoner mistreatment by troops in Iraq that Obama refused to release.  We all know what the videos contained, and many would say that they should be released, but that would give radical people around the world focus that they shouldn't be given.

[Ice]

 Many say that  this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WlqW6UCeaY does
the following ,

"1)  Impugns the office and status of the Presidency of the United States
2) negatively affects the morale of our men and women serving our Commander and Chief, throughout the world, our soldiers, diplomats and covert operatives
3) damages the stature and standing of the United States in the eyes of the world
4) aids and abets our enemies both domestic and abroad
5) emboldens our enemies in our conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan"

Use your own judgment.

 The citizenship issue is still unresolved. For the free thinker, It is not a personal attack. Middle names or spirituality have nothing to do with it either.  Is the candidate qualified for the job as defined by the US Constitution ? It still remains a an unanswered question.

If there is nothing to hide then why the secrecy ?
 Where is the openness and accountabillity that a free society demands of its own and is entitled to ?

[geoffbaker]

Nice deflection, Ice! Of course, you both ignore my point while trying to replace it with your own...

As a truthseeker, I think we need to first see the documents from the secret 2000 energy policy meetings where Cheney sold the national energy policy of the US to the highest bidder (and where one of the released documents, interestingly, is a map of Iraqi oilfields ?  ).

We need to find out more about collusion between the Bush campaign and Enron's price gouging of the California market, which spiked energy costs just in time for a campaign based on the fear of a possible energy crisis;

We need to see all the documents from the VP's office regarding the Plame Affair, in which all participants now claim Alzheimers; but in which officials in the VP's office commited treason by leaking the name of a CIA operative for political gain;

We:need to look at the hard drives of the duplicate email system installed at the White House which allowed them to circumvent the first system, which was open to legal scrutiny;

We need to review all the Justice department paperwork over the internal scandal where the Bush Administration illegally fired State Attorneys for "cause" when in fact they were fired for partisan reasons.

We need to investigate the additional scandal where DJ hirings were illegally screened based on pro-Bush sentiments (a policy which the DJ actually admitted was both illegal and criminal but declined to investigate further)

We need to investigate exactly how it was that Abrahamoff was allowed to spend 200 days in the White House, using it as his office, while conducting his 50 million dollar ripoff where he took Southern Evangelical church money and used it to promote Indian casinos, all with the support of the RNC and obviously, the White House...

We need to investigate the process that shut out balanced intelligence agency estimates of war costs and extent, but let the White House develop its own 'studies' instead which suggested that the war would take months, cost only $80 billion, and need only 135,000 or so troops. The resulting lies of course have cost us 5,000 American soldiers lost in a six year war that has cost trillions of dollars.

Well, the list could just go on forever, couldn't it?

Thoughtful, intelligent truthseekers really need these answers. It would really clear the air if they would just release all these ten million documents...

Once we get all this cleared up, let's return to the Obama citizenship issue, shall we?

[enfield_33]

A "free-thinking" or "truthseeking" person should, IMHO, be more objective in their thoughts.  Spoken and written words such as:  "the moron who used to be President" or other snide and sarcastic comments like:  "BO stinks as President" are indicators of less than free-thinking.

Having passion for one's opinions is great as long as flames don't continually burn the threads.  Only spouting your side and not acknowledging another doesn't really solve anything. 

Although it does indicate that we aren't riding motorcycles as much as we should be.

[geoffbaker]

"Where is the openness and accountabillity that a free society demands of its own and is entitled to ?"

Ice, this one stuns me. We've just left behind an Administration which Nixon era appointees (a very secretive Administration) ALL agree is the most secretive administration in the history of the United States... and you are now demanding openness and accountability from one that is far more open and accountable? After a prolonged silence from the right from 2000-2008 on this issue? That's remarkable.

Very strange. Your protestations sir, are both too late and directed at the wrong Administration. And, I suspect, entirely disingenuous.

Once we've gone back and cleared up all the dirty little secrets of the past Administration ... well, then I welcome you to renew your call for openness and accountability - something I very much doubt you demanded during the Bush years...

[Ice]

A "free-thinking" or "truthseeking" person should, IMHO, be more objective in their thoughts.  Spoken and written words such as:  "the moron who used to be President" or other snide and sarcastic comments like:  "BO astinks s President" are indicators of less than free-thinking.

Having passion for one's opinions is great as long as flames don't continually burn the threads.  Only spouting your side and not acknowledging another doesn't really solve anything.  

Although it does indicate that we aren't riding motorcycles as much as we should be.

 I concur.
Those would be examples of expression of feelings.
I agree.
 

[Ice]

"Where is the openness and accountabillity that a free society demands of its own and is entitled to ?"

Ice, this one stuns me. We've just left behind an Administration which Nixon era appointees (a very secretive Administration) ALL agree is the most secretive administration in the history of the United States... and you are now demanding openness and accountability from one that is far more open and accountable? After a prolonged silence from the right from 2000-2008 on this issue? That's remarkable.

Very strange. Your protestations sir, are both too late and directed at the wrong Administration. And, I suspect, entirely disingenuous.

Once we've gone back and cleared up all the dirty little secrets of the past Administration ... well, then I welcome you to renew your call for openness and accountability - something I very much doubt you demanded during the Bush years...

 Geoff, Please do not take this personal. We have never met. You do not know my mind. I believe you are making assumptions.  I have always demanded accountability.

This administration requires considerable watching like all before it. Congress too.

 It may have been Benjamin Franklin who said "All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing"

 Yes, getting an accounting of the doings of past administrations is a good idea. Bleating about Bush ,Clinton,Carter,Nixon etc. takes the focus off the present.

 I believe our energies should be primarily focused on fixing the mess we are in now. We are in deep and sinking fast.

Fixing the dire situation that is now is the best use of those energies.
Not apologizing for, or covering up for, any administration past or present.

If any one feels the need to see that position as entirely disingenuous then the point was most likely missed.

 

[ace.cafe]

Well, my take on it is that Obama already announced  a while back that he has no intention of looking into any of the Bush administration "funny-business".
So, that's pretty interesting unto itself.
And it tells me that this is simply "business as usual", and that more abuses will follow under this administration, who will then expect the next Prez to ignore their "funny-business".

I think the common vernacular term would be "institutionalized corruption".
And that is the trend which needs to be broken.
And if it has to be broken under this administration, some will cry and some will rejoice. But, it needs to be stopped, right now.

[geoffbaker]

 Bleating about Bush ,Clinton,Carter,Nixon etc. takes the focus off the present.

 I believe our energies should be primarily focused on fixing the mess we are in now. We are in deep and sinking fast.

Fixing the dire situation that is now is the best use of those energies.
Not apologizing for, or covering up for, any administration past or present.
 

You're absolutely right, Ice, I don't know you and we haven't met. So I have to come to my conclusions based on what you say here and how you say it. Here and now.

I totally agree we need to fix things

I agree that bleating about the past is a waste of time - up to a point. I'm not revisiting the secret bombing of Cambodia or Bush Senior's ties to the Sauds. I'm interested in the things that are still affecting us, including the current war and the current fiscal crises.

My point is that for you to present yourself as an unbiased, nonpartisan voice of reason and truthseeking... well, you need to do it in EVERY adminstration that needs it, not merely the ones that you happen to disagree with politically.

So are you truly truth seeking?

Or is this merely partisan political opportunism, an attempt to "take down" one administration after supporting and backing and remaining silent about the failures of another?

All I can say is your voice, like allmost all those on the right on this forum, has been strangely silent until Jan 20, 2009. Now maybe you were avoiding the political side here for good reasons; or maybe you only joined recently, I don't know. BUT...

It seems to me there's a simple way for one to demonstrate the non-partisan nature of their 'truth-seeking' and it would naturally be clear in their writings... IF...

They would criticize Obama for what he is doing wrong (continuing the deficit spending, for instance) but be careful to point out, each and every time, that Obama, has, after all, been in power a mere six months and that many of these problems were created by others... any true understanding of the nature of the problems facing us leave no question that the Bush legacy is one of absolute incompetence, malfeasance, ignorance and criminal activity (including war crimes)... and to package this into a sentence that begins "Well Bush was bad but Obama is worse"... as you did with your very first posting on this thread that I remember .... really lays out two things... firstly that you are spending as little time as possible actually adressing the ROOT of the problems we face but instead are focused on attacking the current incumbent -  and secondly that somehow, in your mind, you are able to put the Bush record and the Obama record into the scales of justice and come out with Obama as "worse"...

So time for a quick recap:

Bush Administration: 9/11 - 3,000+ US civilians dead and blamed on intelligence failures. Osama bin Laden, eight years later still alive and sending postcards. They took us to war in Iraq under false pretences. 5000 troops killed,Leaked the name of a covert op. Scandals: Justice hirings, justice firings, Abrahamoff, secret Energy policy meets, Enron & energy crisis, all the many lies about length & cost of war; torture and 'flying prisons', Patriot Act attack on our rights; fiscall IRResponsibility, financial crisis, housing crisis bank crisis auto crisis. ... this list could go on for pages and we all know it.

Obama: Not solving all of these within six months...
and ... Are his citizenship papers in order?

This is balance? Hardly.

Laying blame at the correct doors always helps demonstrate the writer's balance, politically.

Sorry, you aren't doing this. So I have to question the nature of your "truth seeking".

And as I said earlier; anyone on the right demanding an open government after eight years of the most secret government in history... well it's enough to choke a horse, that's all.

Maybe you spent each and every day of the Bush Administration writing letters demanding his impeachment and calling for accountability. If you're this excited about Obama's birth certificate, then I can only assume that a truth teller would have just been going WILD during the Bush years of torture, lies and mayhem....

So, tell me about it. Please. Let's open ALL these doors, the ones of recent past scandals that still affect us today... and those that need to be opened, today.

[Ice]

This sums it up better than I can so I will borrow it.
 My apologies to all if I offend by doing so

Well, my take on it is that Obama already announced  a while back that he has no intention of looking into any of the Bush administration "funny-business".
So, that's pretty interesting unto itself.
And it tells me that this is simply "business as usual", and that more abuses will follow under this administration, who will then expect the next Prez to ignore their "funny-business".

I think the common vernacular term would be "institutionalized corruption".
And that is the trend which needs to be broken.
And if it has to be broken under this administration, some will cry and some will rejoice. But, it needs to be stopped, right now.

 I am wary of any and all politicians who fail to uphold their oaths of office or fail to keep their promises.
 
My previous posts do not make me a fan boy of any politician.

 I joined the forum on march second of this year so you will find no posts pointing out the shenanigans of previous administrations.

I would like a full accounting of past administrations. Believe me when I say I will not forget.

 Right now we have big, big problems to solve and no viable plan of action.