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Author Topic: Difference between models - one man's view  (Read 4438 times)

Spitting Bull

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Difference between models - one man's view
« on: October 15, 2007, 09:20:32 PM »
I found this web-article today.  It could be useful to those considering which bike to go for as it lists what the author considers the main differences between the classic and AVL engined bikes:

http://www.bikernet.com/roadtests/PageViewer.asp?PageID=1502

Tom
One cylinder is enough for anyone.

RagMan

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Re: Difference between models - one man's view
« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2007, 10:10:55 PM »
Cool find, thank you for posting it.
aka Indiana Bulleteer.
''99 Classic Bullet. '05 Ural Tourist sidecar rig, converted to 2wd. '05 Harley Davidson Sportster.
Jefferson County, WA

dave48

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Re: Difference between models - one man's view
« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2007, 08:23:07 AM »
Seems a useful summary to this novice!
Thanks.

Thumper

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Re: Difference between models - one man's view
« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2007, 11:30:39 AM »
Another man's opinion:

Cons of AVL engine:
Developed by a company whose expertise lies in diesel engines

Not relevant. The design is sound, the engine robust. With results like this I don't care if they design push-up bras.

Looks poor

Wholly subjective.
Looks great to me.
Looks like a thumper.
Looks way better than my SR-500 engine or my Sprint engine, and no better than my SRX-6 engine.


Mechanical clatter of the engine

What mechnical clatter? (Perhaps author needs to adjust valves)

Traditionally NOT A BULLET

Here we go again....

Lacks the classic thump which should make you stand out from the traffic
Std silencer will get you a better beat but still not the Classic thump

Baloney! A thumper is a thumper is a thumper. Author needs to come and take a listen to Frankenstein.

Don't dis my RE!

Not that I take any of this too seriously... (and I'll challenge anyone that says I do!)   ;)

Matt
« Last Edit: October 16, 2007, 01:52:59 PM by Thumper »

luoma

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Re: Difference between models - one man's view
« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2007, 01:15:47 PM »
I agree with you Thumper.The cons were a bit outside reality. Appearence-wise, the only real difference is the iron barrel. There were a lot of bikes from that era that had alloy top ends. The thump comes from mounting a real silencer. And the comment I can never understand: not a real RE. Every time they have made a major (or minor) change to Harleys, there is the comment that the new model is not really a Harley, yet they still make and sell Harleys.

LJRead

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Re: Difference between models - one man's view
« Reply #5 on: October 16, 2007, 06:55:52 PM »
Actually, if you look at the pros listed in the article, they make a pretty good case for the AVL. 

Had R E remained in England, the changes made to the bikes would have been far more drastic.  R E India should be complimented for retaining the traditional features while improving the engine - course they were forced by circumstances of emissions to do so, but they did a good job. 

I'll take the less maintenance, better cooling, better fuel and oil efficiency. slightly more power, any day.  They apparently last longer before rebuilds as well.

deejay

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Re: Difference between models - one man's view
« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2007, 08:49:46 PM »
I'll take the less maintenance, better cooling, better fuel and oil efficiency. slightly more power, any day.  They apparently last longer before rebuilds as well.

And I'll take the real Bullet, thanks.  ;)

RagMan

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Re: Difference between models - one man's view
« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2007, 09:12:23 PM »
I will go with both.. and see which one gets ridden most.
aka Indiana Bulleteer.
''99 Classic Bullet. '05 Ural Tourist sidecar rig, converted to 2wd. '05 Harley Davidson Sportster.
Jefferson County, WA

deejay

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Re: Difference between models - one man's view
« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2007, 11:37:28 PM »
I will go with both.. and see which one gets ridden most.

I don't blame you, if I could have both I would too. Actually I'm looking for a BSA project bike at the moment.

Foggy_Auggie

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Re: Difference between models - one man's view
« Reply #9 on: October 17, 2007, 12:10:08 AM »
Purely subjective, but I love the look of the Sixty-5.  Minimalist decal "bling" treatment.

My dealer had several Electras on the showroom - and this lonely looking brand new Sixty-5 with the dark green/black paint job setting off to the side.

There was no contest (and I like iron jugs).  The Sixty-5 found a home!

Regards, Foggy
Diagonally parked in a parallel universe.

Fortiter Et Fideliter

LotusSevenMan

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Re: Difference between models - one man's view
« Reply #10 on: October 17, 2007, 12:27:23 AM »
I had the choice of newer AVL with the five speed left shift etc which would have made it easy to transfer from my Honda left foot six speed but I wanted the traditional 'old look' right foot four speed. That's what the Bullet is to me, A right foot change four speed 500cc pushrod single. Anything else is a copy. I state now that this isn't to take anything away from those that like other RE's etc. It's just my opinion of what is right for ME.
I only have the bike for a weekend toy. It isn't used to commute etc so ' Old Classic' was the required look and that's what I got and in the Army style as I  like that the best   ;)
Each to their own eh?
If it ain't broke-------------------------- fix it 'till it is!

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deejay

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Re: Difference between models - one man's view
« Reply #11 on: October 17, 2007, 02:57:35 AM »
I had the choice of newer AVL with the five speed left shift etc which would have made it easy to transfer from my Honda left foot six speed but I wanted the traditional 'old look' right foot four speed. That's what the Bullet is to me, A right foot change four speed 500cc pushrod single. Anything else is a copy. I state now that this isn't to take anything away from those that like other RE's etc. It's just my opinion of what is right for ME.
I only have the bike for a weekend toy. It isn't used to commute etc so ' Old Classic' was the required look and that's what I got and in the Army style as I  like that the best   ;)
Each to their own eh?

Nice, yeah it's all about preference... and you can keep that 4 speed gearbox  :D

DaveG

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Re: Difference between models - one man's view
« Reply #12 on: October 17, 2007, 04:27:41 PM »
The bloke who reckons my '05 Electra X isn't a Royal Enfield might have a problem with RE stationary engines, pedal bikes and lawn mowers that are all RE manufactured?!?!
See:-
http://www.royalenfield.org.uk/index.php
on the buttons on the left hand side.
73 de Dave G7NCB from the Isle of Axholme UK (MacPro and OSX.4.11) and 05 Electra X

deejay

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Re: Difference between models - one man's view
« Reply #13 on: October 17, 2007, 04:37:32 PM »
The bloke who reckons my '05 Electra X isn't a Royal Enfield might have a problem with RE stationary engines, pedal bikes and lawn mowers that are all RE manufactured?!?!
See:-
http://www.royalenfield.org.uk/index.php
on the buttons on the left hand side.

I think the argument was about it being a "Bullet" not a Royal Enfield

Thumper

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Re: Difference between models - one man's view
« Reply #14 on: October 17, 2007, 04:53:15 PM »
I think the argument was about it being a "Bullet" not a Royal Enfield

Yes, but the Bullet motorcycle or the Bullet bicycle?

The bicycle is the original Bullet, of course. All others are poseurs.

deejay

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Re: Difference between models - one man's view
« Reply #15 on: October 17, 2007, 05:14:01 PM »
I think the argument was about it being a "Bullet" not a Royal Enfield

Yes, but the Bullet motorcycle or the Bullet bicycle?

The bicycle is the original Bullet, of course. All others are poseurs.

Yes because when anyone mentions the royal enfield Bullet, they automatically think of the bicycle. *rolls eyes*

Now I really don't want this to become my argument, because I don't care what you call your bike. But it's kinda like comparing the new Bonneville to the old one (lets pretend they are both in production today)... sure they are both Bonnevilles, but are they really the same? If anyone has a problem with others not considering their AVL bikes real Bullets, then thats their problem, because you ain't gonna change the purists mind. Just like I'm not going to attempt to convince someone that my India made machine is the same as a 1955 model that came out of england. We're all a bunch of poseurs!
« Last Edit: October 17, 2007, 05:18:01 PM by deejay »

Thumper

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Re: Difference between models - one man's view
« Reply #16 on: October 17, 2007, 05:44:47 PM »
I think the argument was about it being a "Bullet" not a Royal Enfield

Yes, but the Bullet motorcycle or the Bullet bicycle?

The bicycle is the original Bullet, of course. All others are poseurs.

Yes because when anyone mentions the royal enfield Bullet, they automatically think of the bicycle. *rolls eyes*

Now I really don't want this to become my argument, because I don't care what you call your bike. But it's kinda like comparing the new Bonneville to the old one (lets pretend they are both in production today)... sure they are both Bonnevilles, but are they really the same? If anyone has a problem with others not considering their AVL bikes real Bullets, then thats their problem, because you ain't gonna change the purists mind. Just like I'm not going to attempt to convince someone that my India made machine is the same as a 1955 model that came out of england. We're all a bunch of poseurs!

Your saying that your Classic is the real Bullet as compared to my Electra makes about as much sense as my saying the Bicycle is the real Bullet as compared to your Indian made psuedo-RE.

The two have the same basic configuration.
Both are thumpers with comparable displacement, bore and stroke.
Both are air cooled
Both have separate transmissions driven by an oil-bath primary chain
Both have chasis with comparable rake, trail and height
Both are chain drive
Both have rear drum brakes.

What is that makes your more real?
Is it the paint on the barrel?
Is it the less effective front brake?
Is it the less effective rear shocks?
Is it the reduced power output?
Is it the less reliable and maintenance intensive points ignition?
Is it the heavier and less efficient cast iron jug?
Is it the higher propensity to leak oil?

Faster, and more effective the Electra is clearly the bullet anywhere you shoot it.

 *wag tongue*
« Last Edit: October 17, 2007, 06:22:32 PM by Thumper »

dave48

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Re: Difference between models - one man's view
« Reply #17 on: October 17, 2007, 06:30:20 PM »
They're just...well....like...m'cycles, man...
Now, who's for "what's a proper biker?"

deejay

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Re: Difference between models - one man's view
« Reply #18 on: October 17, 2007, 06:33:50 PM »

Your saying that your Classic is the real Bullet as compared to my Electra makes about as much sense as my saying the Bicycle is the real Bullet as compared to your Indian made psuedo-RE.


Nope, I'm not saying that at all... I'm simply trying to explain why a "purist" may not consider the upgraded Electra a true Bullet. I am not a purist, and I don't care if the guy down the street from me calls his Honda a Bullet. However, I am capable (and you are too) of recognizing the differences between the two bikes in question. Therefor I can see the purists point, as do I see yours.

 :)

luoma

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Re: Difference between models - one man's view
« Reply #19 on: October 18, 2007, 01:10:50 AM »
I would have thought a purist would be tickled pink about the AVL. Rather than copy more modern brands, the designers incorporated all the inovations that ownes and enthusiasts pioneered in their garages. I can think of no higher compliment a motorcycle company could pay to the faithful. The upcoming UCE has also angered the purists, but it is an engine designed by the Brits.

The reason I decided on an AVL instead of the far prettier Delux, was that it already had all the upgrades I would have planned on making myself. In essence, I got a couple grand worth of mods for an extra hundred bucks.

My hat is off to RE for trying so hard to provide bikes with traditional look and feel, while still complying with regulatory Nazis.

LJRead

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Re: Difference between models - one man's view
« Reply #20 on: October 19, 2007, 05:49:50 AM »
If you read the Indian R E site, the Indians don't make clear distinction between Bullet and AVL type - they seem to consider them all Bullets.  There is, however, just as great a following for the older iron lungers and the newer alloy versions."Any Bulllet will do". seems to be the attitude.

I had a good laugh the other day when a police convoy came driving through town with two Chinese bikes in the lead.  All the heads of state including New Zealand, Fiji and so forth are here for an annual Forum meeting, and they put on a big show with big SUVs flying flags and all that.  The bikes were minuscule versions of the sort police in the U.S. favor, complete with tiny plastic saddle bags, flashing red lights, tiny windshield and all.  Later, at the airport, I had a chance to look at one close up and it was exactly like a slightly enlarged toy, the casings were perfect, the engine, a one lunger of perhaps 125 cc.  Well, Tongans are said to be the largest race of people in the world, but they managed to find a short thin one for convoy purposes.  Otherwise the driver would have hung all over the place.

It took me back to my early days when Japanese bikes were first introduced and the thing at that time, again, was how perfect the castings were and also how quickly they were able to retool for a new model.  Next to a Japanese bikes, the British ones seemed pretty crude.

Yes, the Indians could have done a lot worse with the Enfield.

LotusSevenMan

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Re: Difference between models - one man's view
« Reply #21 on: October 19, 2007, 08:31:43 AM »
After reading this thread a few days back I thought I'd do a straw poll of my works during a tea break with some of the chaps. Unscientific but worthy of a mention I feel.
Had pictures of my 2003 Army 500ES with single saddle and an AVL.

Mine was rated as a bike of somewhere between 1940 and 1955 and that is just what I wanted.  ;D
The AVL was seen as a Honda or Yamaha 'retro' bike until the tank badge was seen. One chap even said was it a rebadged SR500 Yam? Age was seen as between 1985 and 2003. so it shows it has been brought up to 'the modern age' Think it was the disc brake above all else that was why most considered the AVL being new-looking-old rather than old being updated to new!
If it ain't broke-------------------------- fix it 'till it is!

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Honda VTR FireStorm (SuperHawk) 996cc 'V' twin
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Ducati 916 'L' twin

Kevin Mahoney

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Re: Difference between models - one man's view
« Reply #22 on: October 22, 2007, 12:23:24 AM »
Although it is semantics, let me interject a comment of two. The AVL is just the name of the company that designed the engine. In India they have Bullets with the traditional case iron engine and Bullets with the Lean-Burn engine or AVL engine as it is known. Both are Bullets just different engines. I guess the poll was about the difference between a Military Bullet and an Electra which is it's own model. Make sense?

The difference in castings is the difference between the older type sand casting and a more modern pressure casting. I like the old sand type such as you see in many places on the Bullet, but there is a lot to be said for modern pressure castings

LJRead

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Re: Difference between models - one man's view
« Reply #23 on: October 22, 2007, 08:42:18 PM »
Your right, Kevin, about the sand casted parts being more attractive, the injection allows them to make the casings more complex with logos molded in - it is this perfection that you see in toys and just about everything made out of aluminum or plastic.  It doesn't seem hand made and isn't.  To me, things made with human hands are generally more attractive.

As to you comment on the semantics of Bullet., in India the Electra has the iron engine, but has electric starting and ignition, but is still considered a Bullet.  If the Electra sold in the U.S. were sent back to India, most, I think, would consider it a Bullet.

LJRead

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Re: Difference between models - one man's view
« Reply #24 on: October 22, 2007, 09:53:32 PM »
With regard to casting methods and casings, I notice when looking at R E photos that some, like Deejay's Classic have a chain casing (left side) with a circular area in front with "Royall Enfield" molded in, while others have a plain casing and are just smooth.  Why are some one way and the others the other way?  Just curious.

deejay

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Re: Difference between models - one man's view
« Reply #25 on: October 22, 2007, 11:52:42 PM »
With regard to casting methods and casings, I notice when looking at R E photos that some, like Deejay's Classic have a chain casing (left side) with a circular area in front with "Royall Enfield" molded in, while others have a plain casing and are just smooth.  Why are some one way and the others the other way?  Just curious.

it's because its a 5-speed the smooth ones are 4-speeds.

LJRead

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Re: Difference between models - one man's view
« Reply #26 on: October 23, 2007, 04:03:44 AM »
Thanks Deejay,

I sort of like the 5-speed version as being more vintage looking.  I notice that most bikes in "Members' rides" are photographed from the right side, as if it were more attractive, while yours is pictured from the left side. ..Larry

LotusSevenMan

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Re: Difference between models - one man's view
« Reply #27 on: October 23, 2007, 08:47:09 AM »
LJR
Suspect most bikes are pictured from the right side as that's where the silencer is and of course is very often a huge expanse of shiny polished chrome!!!!
If it ain't broke-------------------------- fix it 'till it is!

Royal Enfield Miltary 500cc  (2003)
Honda VTR FireStorm (SuperHawk) 996cc 'V' twin
Kawasaki KR1 250cc twin 'stroker
Ducati 916 'L' twin

deejay

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Re: Difference between models - one man's view
« Reply #28 on: October 23, 2007, 12:51:25 PM »
Those pics were taken the 1st day I had the bike. I shot mine from both sides, but preferred the looks of left side until I got rid of the GIGANTIC stock silencer. I really hated that thing. I should take some new pictures of all of the mods I have done since then, looks MUCH better now.

 ;D