I question your percentages and your motivations here.
This,,,,,"So you have about 40 percent of the population uninsured",,, was presented in a manner that suggests fact. Now it has turned into,,,,,,,"That is the figure that is 'out there' at least 40% uninsured.".Which is it to be ?
Ice, apology accepted.However, you should by now know that threads such as this rarely stick to the subject of the original post, but tend to wander as new thoughts come. This is normal in human conversation and is as it should be. Furthermore, the topic of health care, which is the subject of original post, is closely tied in with a) and attempt to destroy the Obama Presidency, and 2) strong implications of 'socialism' which, by the way, all societies are in one way or another. So bringing in these two topics and combining them is in no way 'off topic' put simply part of the whole.I realize in what I have read of your posts that you tend to be single minded, but that is you and not typical of this forum.Ace: you no doubt live a healthy life-style and have had a degree of luck. Many haven't had that advantage and sometimes drain the rest of the system because of it.Furthermore, while I agree that people should have options, sometimes, as you if anyone should well know, it is more efficient to organize such things than to take the piece meal approach you are advocating. The problem of course is the inefficiency and costs purposely added to such organized systems by people who are out to feather their own nests. Knowing this, there should way to counteract such attempts. I would say, though I can't verify this, that there have been many very good organizations set up in the past aimed at meeting social needs. To take an entirely negative approach to such attempts isn't, I don't think, going to get the job done.
Those comments plus infusing political rhetoric into this thread about Heal care co-ops is in poor taste at the very least.
Well Ice, I suppose what I consider an attack (aggressive challenge perhaps?) you consider normal discourse. Nothing I can or want to do about that. You have from the start tried to drag this thread away by focusing on my statistics, my motivation, my disagreement with you, my divergence from the opening post etc. Seems you got up on the wrong side of the bed this morning and not a thing I can do about that."Freedom from worry" I guess means freedom from anxiety about how my family will be fed when I have a heart attack and need quadruple bypass surgery, itself a symptom, perhaps, of anxiety and stress. I guess stress is the number one killer in America today, regardless of whether it takes the form of other ailments stemming from a run down condition. Stress could particularly be prevalent when the income providers see themselves unable to provide for family needs because of medical expenses unplanned for.Now I will grant you that costs are too high there because a system or systems were introduced which permitted aggressive capitalistic greed. Things certainly were more moderate when I grew up and expenses hadn't skyrocketed into the absurd. But then too, medical science was at a lower technological level, Open heart surgery, for example, was rare, and survival from it was limited. You had a heart attack and your prognosis was maybe five years. Things were simpler then and cost much less. People weren't allowed to vegetate for years in a semi comatose state.And here we have the wealthiest country in the world in terms of GNP (but not income levels) and a good proportion of those living in the U.S. are forced into stressful situations which could be handled by a rational national health care system. or something similar.And I live in one of the poorer countries in the world, with good access to doctors, free medicine if I choose to use it (I choose to pay) and though not highly technological, it does cover all the essentials and partly because of it, people are relatively free of anxiety. The system, such as it is, and it isn't at all bad, is paid for out of taxes paid to the national government. My wife went in the other day and had a toothache taken care of, postponing it while in the U.S. because of the high cost. Ah socialism! Ironic, isn't it?The wealthiest country in the world placed into gridlock because a few want to maintain their independence from society. Well fine, be independent, but don't come whining when things that could have been handled by a more rational system get tough.But maybe this post too is off topic, and maybe it contains within in it too much disgust and hyperbole..
No acknowledgment of the disparaging remarks made. No appolgy.More sidestepping and emotion. LJ you are hemorrhaging respect and creditability at an exponential rate here.
We differ in our starting points, our underlying premises.
Ice, it is you who are off base and refuse to make sense. It is you who posted a long opening to a thread on on the proposed medical plan which clearly was pirated from some other source, with little thought or investigation given, and what you tried to feed us was largely debunked. It is also you who went on and on about wanting to see the proof of Obama's birth - to what end, I think we can all surmise. I don't see that you have that much credibility, truth be known.
IMHO You are still losing what little creditability you have left with the members and guests of this forum over this .
Hey Ice,You and LJ having a personal disagreement is one thing, but don't presume to know anything about what the rest of us think regarding the credibility of others on this forum unless we have specifically said so. I'm not wading into this topic anymore, because nobody is changing anyone else's mind (although I think LJ and I are in basic agreement).and I don't frankly have the time.Eamon
Ace,I think things started down the wrong track with Wilson and FDR just took the ball and ran with it.My view of government healthcare is this. Next time you get medical treatment go up to the door of the richest man on your street with the bill and ask him to give you the money to cover your costs. Tell him if he does not you will return with a gun and take the money or lock him up. That is what is proposed, its just that people are hiding behind government. Looters on and all...