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Author Topic: Geoff's Ride..  (Read 2090 times)

LJRead

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Re: Geoff's Ride..
« Reply #30 on: September 05, 2009, 10:24:39 PM »
I don't know where you got the idea that cutting the budget back to 1999 levels would allow no income tax.  Seems off base to me in that in 1999, with the budget then, people were paying normal income tax.  The budget must have been largely supported by income tax, so where does Ron Paul's idea come from?  Just don't get it.

Also, cutting back to 1999 would mean somehow reducing the new debt level, which I don't think can be so easily done.  I think I just read that next year their will be a requirement for some 700billion just to service the debt.  Taxes?

You mentioned this idea before, but do you have some supporting evidence or a link that would show me how it can be done?
Lawrence J. Read
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ace.cafe

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Re: Geoff's Ride..
« Reply #31 on: September 05, 2009, 10:52:53 PM »
Yes, of course people paid income taxes in 1999. That doesn't mean that the money wasn't uselessly squandered.
RP  recommends cutting back the spending sufficiently to eliminate the segment of gov't revenue that comes from personal income tax. The rest of the revenue from corporate taxes, excise taxes and tariffs will cover what's needed, after large amounts of the increased spending have been eliminated.
By the way, Ron Paul is a vigorous student of economics of the Austrian School, and has authored 4 books(I think it's 4) on economics, even though his main practice is that of a medical doctor, and being a Congressman.

Here's a quick anecdotal reply copied from Ron Paul's Library website.

""Only about 42 percent of government revenue is collected through the personal income tax. During the course of the Bush presidency, government spending has increased by about 75 percent. Cutting spending to the same level it was at seven years ago would make it possible to render the personal income tax unnecessary."
Ron Paul, October 2007

I'll have to do some digging thru some archives to get the CBO numbers, and such.

There are other economists who agree with this, and it's not just a wild hare.
The problem is that cutting gov't spending is like pulling teeth, because all the gravy-train riders and lobbyists put up a ruckus, and the Congressmen who get their power(and lobbying money) from  their influence on gov't spending don't want anything to do with it.

On top of that, a more vibrant economy that isn't taxed to death actually provides more revenue to the treasury via other taxes already in place, and it's been proven that increasing taxes beyond where we are now actually reduces revenue to the treasury. And to say nothing of stopping the debt bleeding that we are doing now, with the multi-trillion dollar deficits that are currently running.
The spending must stop, or it's over.

I think the real question here is not "how it can be done by reducing spending?".
The real question is "how can we possibly survive if we DON'T reduce spending?"

You point out that the debt service figure is already insanely high, yet we continue to roll-up even more insanely high record-setting deficit spending, compounding the problem by leaps and bounds. At some point, the debt service will be so high that there's not enough money to fund the programs, and they WILL be cut then.
There's no way to sustain this. It's absurd to the extreme.
The choices are "cut spending" or "die".
« Last Edit: September 06, 2009, 12:51:56 AM by ace.cafe »
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Re: Geoff's Ride..
« Reply #32 on: September 05, 2009, 11:55:47 PM »
     Being self employed, I pay for my own medical insurance. In the early 90's I had a good plan at affordable rates. Washington State decided to reform the insurance industry to ensure "fairness". The next year my rates doubled. The year after they doubled AGAIN. I now pay 5 times as much as I did in 1994. To control costs to this level I carry a $2500 deductible as opposed to the $500 deductible prior to reform. And coverage only applies to catastrophic events such as cancer or accident.
    As for taxes..... Did you know that I pay NO taxes? There is not a corporation or any business that pays any taxes at all or pays any fine or penalty. The prices of all the products and services are adjusted to pay the taxes. Raise taxes on business and YOU pay more.
      At some point the consumer will rebel at the higher prices. Now quality or quantity will be cut. Did you ever notice modern ice cream containers now hold 1.5 to 1.75 quarts? Remember when they held a half gallon? This is but one example. lLook at the quality of just about ANYTHING you buy. Is it really satisfactory? Be honest now. Most products are surprisingly cheesy.
     At some point taxes and cost control will drive product value so low that it is no longer tenable. That is the break point. Now businesses close up. They still don't pay any taxes. There is just no profit involved, so they close.
     You might check your paycheck. Most people are paying 25% to 35% of their check in taxes and administration. Besides Federal withholding, there is Social Security (FICA). There are federal and local unemployment  and industrial insurance taxes that both you and your employer pay. His share comes out of the wages he could be paying you.There are state, and sometimes even city, income and other taxes piled on. Don't forget to factor in the cost of the accountant to administer all this. You and the customers pay for that too.
     Where does the madness end?

LJRead

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Re: Geoff's Ride..
« Reply #33 on: September 06, 2009, 02:01:37 AM »
I'm starting to get a little enlightenment based on the above posts by Vince and Ace.  There is some objection expressed about threads like this in a motorcycle forum, but now that Kevin is continually deleting older ones, I see nothing at all wrong with it.  Thing is, I don't belong to other forums than this one and the Yahoo Enfield one, and it is nice, when one is all day thinking about this or that, to be able to discuss these things with people who also think.  Sure we have been wordy above, but it is better than leaving things half said. 

It seems it will take a bit of work there to get people to move on getting down the gov. costs and the amount of taxes taken out.  Let's get through this afghan adventure and get on with improving our own country.  Afghanistan has always been a real corrupt, drug oriented place and I don't really think we should be over there, and getting through with Iraq, where the people hate us anyway, will cut costs as well. 

And as Ace is saying, we need to get the people back in the drivers seat, get rid of all these pappy election jokes (pseudo-elections really as we don't see the candidates for who they really are).

I saw a video with Ron Paul in it about this thing with swine flu vaccinations.  He was against an earlier one, in which about 25 people died from the inoculations and only one died from the flu.  He a doctor, and one other physician, were the only in congress who voted against it in the seventies.Thing is though, Paul is getting on in years - can he have the energy to span the years needed?

Odd though, where I live no one seems to pay much heed to politicians or politics.  They pay little or no taxes, the country is always near bankruptcy (but not much in debt) and so things just go on with not much attention paid. 

Lawrence J. Read
Vava'u
Tonga Islands
South Pacific

2002 Machismo, 2003 RE rickshaw with Thunderbird base

StephenCB

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Re: Geoff's Ride..
« Reply #34 on: September 06, 2009, 04:18:47 AM »
It's "wake up call" time folks, or you're gonna see things that you never ever wanted to see happening in this nation.

I have never in my adult life voted FOR a president.  I have only voted for the man who would, from my perception, do the least damage to my country while in office.

I think that every two years, when the new congress is seated, the first week in session should be a class on the Constitution for all branches of the government; Legislative, Executive, and Judicial.

I've written my congressman, and senators and put it quite simply.  Read the Constitution.  If it isn't expressly there, then it's not the federal government's job.  Yes, it really is that simple.