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Author Topic: Dont ask dont tell.  (Read 2161 times)

clamp

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Dont ask dont tell.
« on: October 12, 2009, 06:24:38 AM »
I have heard that the American army or forces allow unknown or undeclared sexual deviances such as gays and homosexuals to be allowed to enter the army to  active duty even as lovers or married couples ?

      Is this true?   I am so shocked at this I dare not say anything until I know more about it.
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Alaroyal

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Re: Dont ask dont tell.
« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2009, 01:06:23 PM »
If the "don't ask, don't tell" policy is followed, then yes is the answer.  If no one asks, and the couple doesn't tell, how would the military know?
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mbevo1

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Re: Dont ask dont tell.
« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2009, 01:19:47 PM »
Clamp -

The US Armed Forces have long held that homosexual behavior is "a detriment to good order and discipline" and the Uniform Code of Military Justice prohibits this behavior.  It is punishable under the UCMJ (along with many other practices that society would not really consider out of the ordinary, like adultery).  

President Clinton decided to change the policy to "don't ask, don't tell".  It basically says the Government will not ask, and the service member is not obligated to tell if they engage in homosexual activity.  However, it remains an offense under the UCMJ if the service member is caught in the act, or decides to come out and proclaim their sexual orientation.  When I entered the military, there was a question on the application that asked "are you now, or have you ever engaged in..."  I suspect that question went away as part of "don't ask, don't tell".

President Obama offered a campaign promise to end "don't ask, don't tell", but reaffirmed the existing policy in his first few weeks as President.  Had a march in D.C. last weekend from those who wan't to see the changes made now...

Existing policy is confusing, to say the least...

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The Garbone

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Re: Dont ask dont tell.
« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2009, 02:48:47 PM »
I was in from 91 to 97..  When I was signing up the recruiter had the old questioneer with the question lined out.  

Truth be told there are quite a number of gays in the service, and no one really cares.   I was aware of 3 people getting the boot for being gay at commands I was assigned to.   One was a shit bag and did not like the discipline of the service so used it to get out.  The other two were caught on watch by the CO doing the deed.   Funny story that.  The majority were good sailors so no one cared.  

Also of note when I was in there was a female Officer in the AirFarce that was kicked out for sleeping with a female subordinates husband (who was a civilian).  She was told to stop and did not so got the axe..  

IMO the policy should be left alone,  but leftist like social engineering and doing shit that kills troop moral so here we go again.
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Chasfield

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Re: Dont ask dont tell.
« Reply #4 on: October 12, 2009, 04:29:45 PM »
Yeah, they think that :

1) they can fix everything
2) everything needs fixing

They especially don't like compromises or grey areas that are there for sound or just humane reasons.

Thus, they rush in where angels fear to tread.
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UncleErnie

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Re: Dont ask dont tell.
« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2009, 05:52:14 PM »
Gay folks are everywhere.  Some are even marrried to the opposite sex.  BFD. 
I've been propositioned and I said, "No thanks".  Who cares?

It's not contagious, you know. 
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Re: Dont ask dont tell.
« Reply #6 on: October 12, 2009, 05:52:09 PM »
 ::)  Gimme a break!  Us terrible leftists!  If the military values honesty and integrity, they wouldn't ask members to be dishonest or secretive about who they are.  Nobody can tell me a sound or humane reason for discrimination against gays in the military because there are none.  We should be happy to accept anyone who wants to serve his or her country.   :P

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mbevo1

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Re: Dont ask dont tell.
« Reply #7 on: October 12, 2009, 06:54:08 PM »
Just a couple more cents...

First off, I got nothin' against nobody... but the "who prefers to do what with whom" question DOES make it harder to do things... I can comment a little on the problems with how to make this work - at least aboard ship.  For those who ain't been there, its tough to describe how cramped living conditions are at sea...

Used to be that gals weren't allowed to serve in our ships.  One reason was that, at the time, females could not serve in "combat" jobs.  That restriction has since been lifted.  Second reason was, our ships were never designed to accommodate both sexes, and its hard to make changes to do it, particularly on smaller ships (I heard recently we will be putting females on our submarines).  Then you have the major question of how to keep guys and gals from doing what guys and gals do...  you can provide separate berthing and regulations against it, but it's tough to fight biology, and good 'ol biology can interfere with damn near everything (I recall with fondness...).

Speaking to folks I served with who are in positions of Command today, all of the above are "issues".  Most will say that things were certainly easier, less expensive, and very likely more efficient under the "old" way.  Our Navy has changed, but it isn't entirely for the better.

The same folks say that trying to make "guys and gays" work together in the confines of shipboard life will add one more layer to the difficulties.  Would a Commander berth two people together when one may have a sexual preference towards their roomate?  Does it make sense to berth gay men or lesbians together (biology again).   Do you put gay men with lesbian women?  Gets complicated...

I served with men and women who were gay - they told me.  They were good friends and good sailors.  They knew what the regs were and knew they could not practice their sexual preference and still serve.  Damn grateful I never had to make that sacrifice.  

No matter how you slice it, it makes things harder.

Mike and Stumpy in Michigan
« Last Edit: October 13, 2009, 12:09:04 AM by mbevo1 »
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Ice

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Re: Dont ask dont tell.
« Reply #8 on: October 12, 2009, 11:02:25 PM »
  Our Armed Forces are a unique sub culture of America.
 The don't ask don't tell policies in place now work for them as does the various no fraternization and the public displays of affection policies that are in place.

 lets leave them to do the job at hand and not muck about in the workings of their business to accommodate the wishes of those outside of their organization.
 



 
 
 
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Re: Dont ask dont tell.
« Reply #9 on: October 12, 2009, 11:20:52 PM »
I'll say it again:
If the military values honesty and integrity, it is hypocrisy to ask members to be dishonest or secretive about who they are.

Gay people have always been in the military and always will be.  If we value honesty and integrity in our military we'd drop the facade.  As Uncle Ernie said, it's not contagious!

Eamon
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Ice

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Re: Dont ask dont tell.
« Reply #10 on: October 12, 2009, 11:34:46 PM »
 The Armed Forces also value good order,discretion and self discipline and a litany of other values hence the policies and regulations as they are now.
 
 Besides don't ask don't tell, fraternization, public displays of affection they also have policies on things like writing bad checks, drunk and disorderly conduct, D.W.I. personal responsibility, child support etc. etc.

 I see no need to alter their culture as it is working well for them.
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Re: Dont ask dont tell.
« Reply #11 on: October 13, 2009, 12:08:34 AM »
I think you should have to be gay to serve in the military. War is just a Freudian penis size thing anyway. Besides, remember the guys in the Village People? They were pretty scary looking.

< served 12 years in the Army.... and that was enough

ace.cafe

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Re: Dont ask dont tell.
« Reply #12 on: October 13, 2009, 12:13:16 AM »
Well, I'm really happy for his little "love fest".
Seems alot like "interior re-decorating on the Titanic".

Now that that's over with, maybe he might start figuring out where that 2 Trillion Dollars went,  that he handed over to the bankers.
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Eamon

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Re: Dont ask dont tell.
« Reply #13 on: October 13, 2009, 12:16:35 AM »
I think you should have to be gay to serve in the military. War is just a Freudian penis size thing anyway. Besides, remember the guys in the Village People? They were pretty scary looking.

< served 12 years in the Army.... and that was enough

If I saw the Village People coming at me with guns, I'd get the F outta their way!  :D
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UncleErnie

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Re: Dont ask dont tell.
« Reply #14 on: October 13, 2009, 12:28:21 AM »
What any branch of the government AND the American public say they value, and the reality, are diametrically opposed, IMHO.  I watch what goes on in Washington these days with disgust, but the citizens voted for every individual and continue to support it.

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scoTTy

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Re: Dont ask dont tell.
« Reply #15 on: October 13, 2009, 12:45:07 AM »
Quote
< served 12 years in the Army.... and that was enough

 did you get a pension for your service?  school ? anything? 

I know of many service people that fiddled away what they received for their time spent..  since there is no lottery or draft , this was a conscious decision on your part to join and re up

Eamon

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Re: Dont ask dont tell.
« Reply #16 on: October 13, 2009, 02:22:00 AM »
Now that that's over with, maybe he might start figuring out where that 2 Trillion Dollars went,  that he handed over to the bankers.

This might explain it...  :D
http://www.theonion.com/content/video/in_the_know_should_the_government

Eamon
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clamp

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Re: Dont ask dont tell.
« Reply #17 on: October 13, 2009, 02:39:25 AM »
Wow seems like it is true.

    I dont care if David loves peter but can they be trained.
    Peter is a woman trapped in a mans body, will he fix bayonet and charge to kill as he was strained.   As a womans mind and feelings will he/him be able to make the right decision when needed.

   Im sorry but a mans job needs a man.

   I would feel very uneasy working, I would /could not guarantee they would act in the right way and that could affect my performance and get me or others killed.

     A platoon is a whole thing, it is team work.   Peter and David holding hands does not count.

    Being trained to kill people and make war is not a game, it should be taken more seriously.

    If the training of Us forces were taken more seriously we might not have charges of reckless murder and rape as we have seen countless times in Japan and at war in Afganistan and Iraq.

    You carry your weak, your don't discharge at the early stage when some one is sure not to get there and entered the forces for the wrong reason.

     "Full metal Jacket"  Yes the movies but explains my point.

    Could it be why your wars go on and on without finishing?  Vietnam, Iraq ( still there)  Afganistan ( still not got Bin ladin who escaped on a donkey)

        Get some men on the job. Sleep in the rain men --eat snake type men.

          Lip stick and handbags may be a joke but its just under the surface.

      
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Eamon

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Re: Dont ask dont tell.
« Reply #18 on: October 13, 2009, 03:00:52 AM »
I would feel very uneasy working, I would /could not guarantee they would act in the right way and that could affect my performance and get me or others killed.
That's your problem.  Why do so many homophobes think all gay people want them so bad?  Really, man, they're not into you.  They're interested in other gay people.

Could it be why your wars go on and on without finishing?  Vietnam, Iraq ( still there)  Afganistan ( still not got Bin ladin who escaped on a donkey)
Every army has gay people in it.  Every army in the past has had gay people in it.  The only difference is whether or not they have been able to admit it.  Hell, I'll bet you there are closeted gay Taliban and Al Quaeda fighters.

Get some men on the job. Sleep in the rain men --eat snake type men.
I fail to see what sexual preference has to do with those qualities.

Come on, Clamp.  You've done better chain yanking than this before.  You're obviously not trying.
 :P

Eamon
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UncleErnie

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Re: Dont ask dont tell.
« Reply #19 on: October 13, 2009, 03:16:01 AM »
Well, there has been stupidity throughout the ages;  Jews, black folks in America, women everywhere, gay people, etc.  The difference between ignorance and stupid is stupid people insist on staying that way. 
There will always be Jews, black people, women, gays, and stupid people.  As long as stupid people outnumber everyone else, there will never be any prejudice against them. 

...which is why I ride my motorcycle here in the mountains.
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clamp

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Re: Dont ask dont tell.
« Reply #20 on: October 13, 2009, 09:26:36 AM »
I am not yanking chains, thats why I asked for confirmation of this in my first post.

      I do not feel sexually threatened by gays, where did I say that?

      I feel threatened by their probable  inability to do what is sometimes necessary at times when my life might depend on it.   I want Rambo standing next to me not Peter the puff.     

     I understand that a gay could get into the army, but this war thing needs to be taken more seriously than it is taken these days.

    A guy can not get into the forces if he is blind or hard of hearing, Epilepsy would also not be helpful  and a shit load of other reasons. At certain moments of attack  a gay would  not be motivated in my opinion and his affliction should be considered under the same category.   

     Your not taking the  forces serious enough, this is a war machine --or is supposed to be.   Its not for gays.

      Thats how I feel about it and thats it. I have nothing more to add.

      Your making a laughing stock of war and your own forces.

       

   
     
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Re: Dont ask dont tell.
« Reply #21 on: October 13, 2009, 11:49:59 AM »
did you get a pension for your service?  school ? anything? 

Disability plus they paid for me to attend a trade school (I already had an Undergraduate degree). Plus, I wouldn't have met my wife had I not joined the Army. So.... not a bad deal.  ;D

UncleErnie

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Re: Dont ask dont tell.
« Reply #22 on: October 13, 2009, 01:16:50 PM »
Well, Mr Clamp, apparently you do not know any gay people.  I lived in San Francisco for 25 years, so it was impossible to avoid them.  I can assure you that the flamers are are stereotype.  I will say that no one enjoys a good brawl as much as a transvestite.  Sounds nut, but when I lived in a low-rent district while I went to college there sere several bars where trannies entertained.  Occasionally straight kids would assume it might be fun to harass or beat up a sissy- and they usually got their butts kicked. 

Anyway, not many 18 year olds start out as Rambo.  They have to be taught- and that;s what basic training is for. 

As far as taking wars seriously, I personally have very mixed feelings.  As an American, I'm really tired of being the world's policeman.  It feels like the rest of the world is laughing at us.  Or- hates us enough to plan mass murder.  I am cynical that most of our aggression seems to be directed at preserving our own interests around oi or other financial matters.  It seems that private industry is the big winner during our wars.  I am also dismayed that every politician elected to office is a liar and on the take- and the voters buy it over and over.  That includes out new Nobel laureate.  What a crock. 

So, in a way, you're right;  I personally don't take any of our recent acts of aggression too seriously- but that's because I don't take out government seriously.  I have plans to live in denial as much as possible because I don't see how anything can be changed.


Back on topic;  none of our problems have to do with gay people in the military.  IMO, anyway.
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Re: Dont ask dont tell.
« Reply #23 on: October 13, 2009, 03:00:18 PM »
Yeah, a lot of gay guys are into serious weightlifting and are actually pretty aggressive. Sexual orientation has nothing to do with a person's cowardice or bravery.

Do you really think Peter the Puff would enlist if he didn't have the guts to "thrust his bayonet"?

What would Clamp the Bar-Tramp do under fire?

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mbevo1

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Re: Dont ask dont tell.
« Reply #24 on: October 13, 2009, 03:38:26 PM »
Do you really think Peter the Puff would enlist if he didn't have the guts to "thrust his bayonet"?

I don't think any of us knows about their own guts until it's time to do it... I enlisted during Vietnam, hassled bad guys, but didn't get seriously shot at until Gulf War I.  Don't think I was the only one thinking about "can I REALLY do this when it counts..."  You find out when its time.

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clamp

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Re: Dont ask dont tell.
« Reply #25 on: October 13, 2009, 04:45:20 PM »
I don't think any of us knows about their own guts until it's time to do it... I enlisted during Vietnam, hassled bad guys, but didn't get seriously shot at until Gulf War I.  Don't think I was the only one thinking about "can I REALLY do this when it counts..."  You find out when its time.

Mike and Stumpy in Michigan

   Exactly,---  The weight training thing is for vanity.   Im not talking about a street brawl Im talking killing a man with your bare hands because you have no ammunition.

      Pushing your thumbs into a mans eyes and into his brain takes a special   man not a puff. If he fails you have to do his work too.   

    As far as being policemen of the world --thats your own fault  telling everyone nuclear weapons are not necessary because you have them and you wont let anyone hurt thoes that disarm.

               You put yourself up for that, and I saw that coming years ago.
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Eamon

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Re: Dont ask dont tell.
« Reply #26 on: October 13, 2009, 05:19:09 PM »
What would Clamp the Bar-Tramp do under fire?

Jeff

Quite possibly get his eyes gouged out by the thumbs of an in the closet gay soldier because he didn't think a gay person could do it!   :P
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Re: Dont ask dont tell.
« Reply #27 on: October 13, 2009, 06:07:37 PM »
Quite possibly get his eyes gouged out by the thumbs of an in the closet gay soldier because he didn't think a gay person could do it!   :P
;D
Score one for Eamon.

Women make men soft (well, in most ways). Give me a gay platoon any day. During breaks in battle we could re-decorate the barracks for less than a thousand dollars.

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Re: Dont ask dont tell.
« Reply #28 on: October 13, 2009, 06:59:14 PM »
Mr Clamp, your concerns seem to be based on...Fear?  Supposition?  Rumor? Superstition?  What?   What in you was so disgusted by a whim that passed through your brain that you had to post this?  Are we to believe that your love of America is so strong that you wanted to voice a serious concern for our safety? 
I'm curious how a person's sexual orientation affects their ability to bash someone's brains in. ?

Really.
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Re: Dont ask dont tell.
« Reply #29 on: October 13, 2009, 09:49:19 PM »
  I suppose I'll relate this story from my days as a first sergeant at Fort Knox years ago.  I received a call one weekend that I had to go to bail three of my rough and tough scouts out of the Jefferson County jail in Louisville, Kentucky.

  I picked up a fourth soldier that had direct knowledge of the incident I couldn't believe what I was hearing from this guys version.

  When I arrived at the jail the arresting deputy told me basically the same one.  Seems the first three decided to go rough up the gays for fun.  They happened into a gay bar and picked on the first guy they saw alone.  They hen left the bar room to wait for the guy.  Closing time came and the fourth guy thought it was best to stay clear of trouble.

  Cutting to the chase they provoked the guy into a fight.  Something on the order of there was nothing the guy liked doing more than giving oral sex and kicking red-neck ass was heard from the dude.  He won and they obviously lost.  My "hero's" had a lost a total of three teeth, had approximately a dozen severe bruises, and various other groin injuries.  So I don't exactly think (gays) they'll be to afraid to stand their ground.

  Gotta stiop watching the Bird Cage with Robin Williams.  And I also wonder why you are pre-occupied with the U.S.A. military as a whole.  It wasn't the GI Jane/Joe in the trenches that made the decision on where/when to fight.  Don't drag the soldier/airmen/marines/sailor into this.  We've survived worse problems than gays/lesbians in the ranks, and few if any problems have been noted.

  The Air Force/Army both lost a Lieutenant each during the Gulf War for prostution. I believe thats probably more of a detriment but your concern is duly noted. 

 
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Re: Dont ask dont tell.
« Reply #30 on: October 14, 2009, 12:09:42 AM »
Don't give him credit for being concerned about anything. It's just a simple case of...


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Re: Dont ask dont tell.
« Reply #31 on: October 14, 2009, 03:00:52 AM »
I think if you were in a combat situation with everyone scared, you wouldn't care one whit whether the person next you with a gun (presumably and preferably on the  same side as you were) was gay or not.

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Re: Dont ask dont tell.
« Reply #32 on: October 14, 2009, 03:01:39 AM »
true statement

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Re: Dont ask dont tell.
« Reply #33 on: October 14, 2009, 03:30:15 AM »
  Here's something we have to say to all those outsiders that are worried about what we do, or how we are.  This song pretty much sums up the whole ball of wax.  Will.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kB7OR161-U
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REpozer

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Re: Dont ask dont tell.
« Reply #34 on: October 14, 2009, 04:55:25 AM »
Bottom line:

Let the military commanders dictate internal requirements and standards, not the politicians.
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clamp

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Re: Dont ask dont tell.
« Reply #35 on: October 14, 2009, 09:21:44 AM »
You should not be scared, nervous possible but you should know what you are doing or you should NOT be there.

        You don't get it do you?   you can not train to kill, you can teach the method but the kill is in the heart.

      Undeniable rage and anger that we spend all our lives trying to control and for most of us we can. The marines Us or UK try to release this again in a way that can be used for combat.

     Rambo,-- fictional example trained to kill and can but could not be de trained.

      A friend of mine is in Iraq right now training Us forces how to kill  bare handed.

       He looks like a librarian, you would make a serious mistake to cross him.

     A similar friend  was a Canadian seal with martial arts experience,-- a horrendous street fighter. He was shot  dead some years ago.

       These men showed very little tolerance to simple communication, and showed irritation at small talk.   they were not men that liked other men, not even in thier vicinity

    These men are  for war,--not homosexuals who are joining up with tounge in cheek for a laugh and mingle with underpants.
     
I would never be a member of a cub that would have me as a member

1Blackwolf1

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Re: Dont ask dont tell.
« Reply #36 on: October 14, 2009, 01:57:38 PM »
  The ship sailed and sunk on the argument, you went down with it.  Anyone who is exposed to enough horror, bloodshed, will be break and become a killer.  Just like every person has a breaking point psychologically when tortured.  Just how much a person can take depends on the circumstances surrounding the case.

  Leave it be, these are your opinions.  I retired from the US Army and have trained as a parachutist and Ranger, blew a knee on a bad jump accident.  Unless YOU have walked this walk you can't talk this talk.  What your buds did is of little consequence..question have you ever served?  If so were you 100% sure you weren't surrounded by gays?  Just because you type the last comment doesn't mean you win the prize.  Will.
Will Morrison
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UncleErnie

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Re: Dont ask dont tell.
« Reply #37 on: October 14, 2009, 03:35:13 PM »
Pretty well put.
Mr Clamp, I get the feeling you're talking about something of which you have no personal experience.   Rumors, suspician, superstition, supposition, fear, homophobia, paranoia; I don't know what, or where this is coming from.  Good luck to ya.

Given all the headlines, I seriously doubt anyone joins the military for a clandestine (or otherwise) slap and tickle.
Run what ya brung

Cabo Cruz

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Re: Dont ask dont tell.
« Reply #38 on: October 14, 2009, 07:25:20 PM »
"...  This song pretty much sums up the whole ball of wax."  Will.

Amen, Br. Will...
Long live the Bullets and those who ride them!

Keep the shiny side up, the boots on the pegs and best REgards,

Papa Juan

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