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Author Topic: are these quirks?...  (Read 1530 times)

rnewton75

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are these quirks?...
« on: November 21, 2009, 02:23:40 PM »
I've been really enjoying my G5 but it has developed a few issues that I thought I'd post to see if any one else is experiencing the same.  I have about 1100mi on it & I've done 2 oil changes and am about to do the third (and another was done during the recall before I bought it).  the issues are as follows:

1.  the head seems to be leaking oil.  Not much, just enough to moisten all of the heat fins on the cylinder and a couple of drops will formon the tips of the fins if the bike is set on its side stand after being ridden.  but its never been enough to actually drip or smoke. 

2.  the engine seems to loose spark at a certain rpm range in 2nd & 3rd gear.  I'll explain,  when winding throught 1st it pulls great and shifts into 2nd fine.  Then, when winding through 2nd it getabout 2/3rds of the way through 2nds rpm range and seems to loose ignition.  If you go ahead and up-shift (even though you're now shifting to early) or even back off on the throttle it's fine.  it does the same thing in 3rd gear but 1st, 4th & 5th seem fine.  I've done some playing with it and it seems to reliably hapen in a specific rpm range only.  also, this only happens when the bike is warmed up (after being ridden 20min or so).  I originally thought I may have oil leaking into the cylinder from the oil leak mentioned above that was fouling the plug temporarly.  But not the case.  it happens in such a precice rpm range that I think it's a computer issue (maybe something overheating)?  I tested the battery and charging output and they seem fine.  I disconnected the battery for an hour or so to maybe let the computer re-set itself and that seemed to help a little bit.  it still stalls at the same range but seems a little better.

I'm taking it to my dealer in a couple of weeks but if anyone has any ideas that I could tr in the mean-time please let me know.

Thanks.

Chris-G5

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Re: are these quirks?...
« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2009, 02:55:14 PM »
I have not experienced any cutting out/stalling like you describe with my G5. I did once have some cutting out but it was in 5th gear, and I believe it was due to low fuel pressure because I had a loose wire to the fuel pump. This also caused the bike to die and not restart a few times. Since I fixed the loose wire, I have had no problems. I am experiencing some oil leaking but not from the head. I plan on taking it to the dealer for this when the weather gets too cold to ride. Your dealer should hopefully be able to figure your problem out. You might also want to call CMW and talk to ScooterBob about it. Good luck, hope it gets figured out soon.

Ice

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Re: are these quirks?...
« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2009, 12:38:36 AM »
You C5/G5 guys and your RElative lack of problems,,,,sheesh  ;) ;D
I can break it better,,,,at night, in the rain, on the trail,, 20 miles from nowhere.

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t120rbullet

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Re: are these quirks?...
« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2009, 12:53:01 AM »
Mine leaks a bit of oil. I should say weeps a bit of oil.
The recommendation to run a semi-synthetic oil might have something to do with it.
I had a hard time finding semi-synthetic oil so I've been running a full synthetic oil in mine. Synthetic oil has a habit of finding it's way out of the best sealed crevices. Nature of the beast.
CJ
 
 
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rnewton75

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Re: are these quirks?...
« Reply #4 on: November 22, 2009, 11:19:27 AM »
Mine leaks a bit of oil. I should say weeps a bit of oil.
The recommendation to run a semi-synthetic oil might have something to do with it.
I had a hard time finding semi-synthetic oil so I've been running a full synthetic oil in mine. Synthetic oil has a habit of finding it's way out of the best sealed crevices. Nature of the beast.
CJ
 
 
Thanks t120,  but i've been using Honda 20-50w SJ traditional oil. 

ScooterBob

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Re: are these quirks?...
« Reply #5 on: November 22, 2009, 01:43:22 PM »
Do NOT run that engine on dinosaur oil - no matter HOW tempted you may be to do so!! the factory said "semi-synth" and I'll stick to the FULL synthetic oils for a reason. That little motor uses the oil to cool the piston crown and "regular" oil will surely coke and make deposits in the engine, possibly resulting in particulate damage and restricted oil flow to critical parts. Also, there are some parts that require the level of lubricity at high temps that only a synthetic oil can provide. Remember also that your warranty coverage for internal engine damage may be voided by using the incorrect oils.
Spare the pig iron - spoil the part!

rnewton75

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Re: are these quirks?...
« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2009, 02:06:57 PM »
Do NOT run that engine on dinosaur oil - no matter HOW tempted you may be to do so!! the factory said "semi-synth" and I'll stick to the FULL synthetic oils for a reason. That little motor uses the oil to cool the piston crown and "regular" oil will surely coke and make deposits in the engine, possibly resulting in particulate damage and restricted oil flow to critical parts. Also, there are some parts that require the level of lubricity at high temps that only a synthetic oil can provide. Remember also that your warranty coverage for internal engine damage may be voided by using the incorrect oils.
The Honda oil I've been using is a semi-synthetic (per instructions).  I said traditional earlier meaning not full synthetic (I was thinking that full synth may cause leaks).  But, do you recomend running full synthetic?  Or maybe switch from the semi to the full at "X" amount of miles? 

r80rt

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Re: are these quirks?...
« Reply #7 on: November 22, 2009, 08:37:17 PM »
I've ran full synthetic from day one in my C5, no leaks no problems.
On the eighth day God created the C5, and it was better looking than anything on the planet.
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singhg5

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Re: are these quirks?...
« Reply #8 on: November 23, 2009, 04:58:30 AM »
I've been really enjoying my G5 but it has developed a few issues that I thought I'd post to see if any one else is experiencing the same.  I have about 1100mi on it & I've done 2 oil changes and am about to do the third (and another was done during the recall before I bought it).  the issues are as follows:

1.  the head seems to be leaking oil.  Not much, just enough to moisten all of the heat fins on the cylinder and a couple of drops will formon the tips of the fins if the bike is set on its side stand after being ridden.  but its never been enough to actually drip or smoke. 
Thanks.


Mine leaks a bit of oil. I should say weeps a bit of oil.
The recommendation to run a semi-synthetic oil might have something to do with it.
I had a hard time finding semi-synthetic oil so I've been running a full synthetic oil in mine. Synthetic oil has a habit of finding it's way out of the best sealed crevices. Nature of the beast.
CJ
 

I have 3900 miles on my G5.  It also weeps a bit of oil on the left side of engine - right in front of the starter motor. I use semi-synthetic Motul oil exactly what is recommended in the RE Service Manual.  The leak is not from the housing of the starter drive.  Is this damaging to the internal engine ? 
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2006 Honda Nighthawk
2009 Royal Enfield Black G5

ScooterBob

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Re: are these quirks?...
« Reply #9 on: November 23, 2009, 02:35:08 PM »
The Honda oil I've been using is a semi-synthetic (per instructions).  I said traditional earlier meaning not full synthetic (I was thinking that full synth may cause leaks).  But, do you recomend running full synthetic?  Or maybe switch from the semi to the full at "X" amount of miles? 

I believe that you use the bike hard, you should go full synth .... but the semi-synthetic oil will be just fine for regular use - not a problem. The deal is just the higher temperature that you retain lubricity and the higher coking temp of the synthetic. The new little engine is running on the ragged edge of lean with the EFI - and efficiency means HEAT! There is no charge cooling for the piston crown like a good old Iron Barrel - where you just shovel the dinosaur into the carb whole - no need to wait 'til they turn into oil! Hahaha!!
Spare the pig iron - spoil the part!

chinoy

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Re: are these quirks?...
« Reply #10 on: December 18, 2009, 08:28:35 AM »
Ive been promoting and selling motul for years.
We have found huge gains when shifting to fully synth.

BUT

There are two weights available. And you have to pick the right weight.
Or you can have serious problems. Like a drastic drop in oil pressure and increased wear and tear.
Ex: On a Turbo build we switched to the best oil Motul makes and watched the oil pressure drop to nearly zero.
So use the right weight. (The thicker the better on the bullet.) And if your going to use something not recommended by the manufacturer dont just use it because its the best. It may not be the best for your engine.
On most builds I recommend normal oil for the first 500 Kms. For good ring seal. And then we shift to fully synth.




ScooterBob

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Re: are these quirks?...
« Reply #11 on: December 18, 2009, 04:48:26 PM »

So use the right weight. (The thicker the better on the bullet.) And if your going to use something not recommended by the manufacturer dont just use it because its the best. It may not be the best for your engine.

On most builds I recommend normal oil for the first 500 Kms. For good ring seal. And then we shift to fully synth.

Don't be lulled into EITHER of these for the UCE engine! Tight manufacturing tolerances and a REAL oil pump will will actually SHEAR an oil that is too viscous IN THE PUMP! The result is oil that is overheated and has lost lubricity IN the pump. I'll definitely agree to the heavy oil in the old Iron engine - the UCE is a whole different ball of wax.

The ring set and cylinder finish on the UCE is also designed to seal from new - WITH a synthetic oil - not a problem. These ain't your Daddy's Royal Enfield! Use 10W-40 oil up to an average temp of 75 - use 20W-50 if the temp is higher. For EXTREME cold riding - use a 5W-30 to keep the raw bits supplied and lubed.




Spare the pig iron - spoil the part!

chinoy

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Re: are these quirks?...
« Reply #12 on: December 20, 2009, 05:37:32 AM »
10 years on various Bike Forums has taught me to tread very carefully when talking to a senior member. That too an admin.
So I say the following with abject humility and am in no way arguing or disagreeing with your post. Also I lack any knowledge about oil and engines in sub zero temps.
Though all the bullet boys who do the Leh Ride do not change their oil.

So hear me out.

There has been a lot of Hype about the new Bullet. Its tech and run in.
But most of the info is very conflicting.

In one discussion with a Tech Manager. When I asked about Run in I was told. What run in this is a modern engine there really isnt any run in to speak off. As an after thought I was told Just follow your owner hand book.

On the flip side when I went back with the bike and pointed out the problems. I was asked what speed have you done. I said Ive had it up to 80 Kmph. In 5th.

I was told oh no you've ruined your engine. You should never cross 60 Kmph for the first 500 Kms.

While RE would like to make it sound like tight tolerances and Platue honing is something new. Its really not for most of us.

I was involved in the setup and commissioning of the first Sunnen Cylinder king in Blr at Vijaydeep. Back in the late 90s.
And since then most of us have been using Platue Honing and tolerances +- 2 Microns. For all our builds. Bikes or cars. 2 or 4 stroke. Modern engines or old ones.

And I have a pretty good ideas as to what gives the best ring seal. Semi synth first then switch to fully synth. Compression readings are taken every 50 Kms.  And this has proved the best route to give you the best ring seal. And the least blow by.

Second on the issue of oil weight.
I would still not change my oil weight. without checking to see what effect it has on oil pressure. The sudden drop in oil pressure. Has been noticed on all four stroke engines be it bike or car. Modern or old. The only engines we did not see a change in oil pressure are the latest Jap cars like the latest Honda's and on other cars like the BMW and VW. All the bikes showed a drop in oil pressure. If your going to change the weight of an oil. And its very nature I fail to see how the oil pressure is not going to drop. Sure temps matter but that's just till the engine comes up to running temps.

The UCE comes from the factory with  Motul 3000 4t 15-50. If you wanted to go one step up you could try the 5100 15-50 Esther formulation its a Techno Synth slightly better than the semi syth the bike comes with.

And then at the top of the line you have the Motul 300v which are sold in two weights in this country the 5W-40 and the  15W-50.
My point was if your going to run the 300V run the 15W-50. And not the 5W-40 at least in our climate.

I had a word about this with the R&D boys at Motul. And his advise was dont switch to 300 V untill you finish your factory run in or at least 3000 Kms.
This is the scene here. Not sure what the scene is else where.

My plan right not is change to the Techno Synth 5100 15W-50 at 500 Ks and then to 300 V at the next oil change.

One thing is for sure running the 300V or any good Fully Synth shows a huge improvement in the way the bike runs.

ScooterBob

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Re: are these quirks?...
« Reply #13 on: December 20, 2009, 09:18:04 PM »
Oh! - You are absolutely right about conflicting info on the new engines. The boys in Chennai only know what they are told. I have been more involved with the UCE engine than probably half the fellows that worked on it. There is also a huge difference in the availability of oils in Europe and here in the US. That adds considerably to the confusion - look how many threads are on this forum that prattle on endlessly about this oil or that oil - ad infinitum.

Plateau honing is new to the Enfield boys - and so are round cylinders with no taper, for that matter. The rings will seal great with the synth right out of the box, compared to the old ones. I've done a leak-down on an Iron engine and was surprised to see it as low as 15% ..... on the UCE, they'll run as low as 6% right out of the bag - that is INCREDIBLE for an air cooled engine I think.

One of the big deals with the UCE is the WAY the India boys test them. They go out and USE them. They will not (for religious reasons or something ...) burn one to the ground on the test track or in the lab to see what fails or how they behave when they are being run HARD! They are genuinely surprised when one fails - and a bit taken aback at the same time I believe. I have been trying to get data on just what IS the weakest link in the engine - I'll tell you - it's pretty damn tough! I'm sort of puzzled that YOU had trouble with yours running it at speed ..... I have barbecued a couple so far will no ill effects at all. AT ALL.

The issue of oil pressure is not a huge one in the UCE - oil VOLUME is the big deal. It's all roller bearing on the critical stuff. The only parts that need PRESSURE are the lifters. Remember that the oil pump gear on the UCE is made from Nylon. IMHO, it's a pretty cheesy part - but the concession was to noise in the geartrain (there is none ...) and the fact that the "Big Four" drive their oil pumps similarly. The problem that one will run into if the oil is TOO viscous, it that the gear will let go and you'll have NO oil pressure. Best to run light oil in this one, for sure. Again - these aren't Iron Barrels - I use SAE50 or 60W in those old tractors to keep 'em alive.

You've provided some good info here that is SURE to set off another oil war - and maintenance war. It'll be interesting to see the sort of feedback that happens! Keep up the gREat posts!
Spare the pig iron - spoil the part!

chinoy

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Re: are these quirks?...
« Reply #14 on: December 24, 2009, 11:02:35 AM »
Its an honor to be able to talk to people like you.

Your spot on about the RE boys. And you seem to have a wealth of exp. and info on these engines. You and Ace are now my official Bullet Gurus.  ;D

To be honest. Till they came out with the UCE.
Most Indians look at the RE Bullet as a bike with an agricultural motor in it.
Hold on the Agricultural motors are actually more advanced.

The only people who buy bullets in India are guys like me who are too big or too fat to ride the other bikes they sell here. The largest and most powerful being a 14 BHP 220cc.

But trust me its not like this everywhere in India.

On the last project I did which was figure out why the gear boxes of the Formula JK cars where blowing up and then fixing them.

My Boss actually gave me a car and said now lets see you blow up this one.
And we tried everything including downshifting from 5th into 1st at the end of the straight. Something you wouldn't try even with an original Hewland Gear Box.

Part of the reason why the gear boxes failed to start with is not religious or cultural.
Its more an attitude of cover your arse and fear.

In this particular case the guy assembling the gear boxes. Didnt want to point out the manufacturing defects and tolerance issues because his boss was responsible for quality control and making the parts to start with.

Nobody wants to break anything or point out a weak link because it makes the next guy who works with you look bad. And thats probably the guy who writes your appraisal report. So when things go wrong. Its always the drivers fault. Or somebody else.

I know that surprised look all too well and run into it on a daily basis on almost every project.

Like the time I was commissioning the country first Dyno. And they hadn't got it to work because they had installed it the wrong way round. And spinning the rollers in the wrong direction.

The only way to short circuit this culture of cover up. And dont break anything is to call in an outside consultant. Who really isnt bothered about who he pisses off or gets into trouble by pointing out flaws and defects.
Which is probably the role you played.
And probably why the new bikes are so good.

Maybe one of these days when we get chatting on I can tell you some interesting stories about RE.

BTW there seem to be a lot of little holes all over the engine which are now blocked off. I wonder what they are for.
Must be for either checking oil pressure or flow or maybe they had thoughts off using an oil cooler.

Your right about the oil loosing its ability to lubricate on air cooled motors, due to the heat.
We have the same problem with our High Output Tubro builds. Even on Liquid cooled engines.
Shifting to a fully synth. Gives you that added margin of safety by a good  20-30 Deg C. Which is all you need in most cases.

Ive asked my guy at Motul to send me the flash point numbers and other Tech Data for all their oils. I have all the data for their two stroke oils which is what I work with most of the time.
Will post it up as soon as I get it.

My problem here is a different one. I want to change to 300V after my first service but the dealer wont let me run anything but the mineral oil because the factory recommends it. What the bikes come with is not a Semi Syth in my book.
Its their cheapest Mineral Grade. (Will wait for data from Motul to confirm it)

Their first oil to be Semi or Techno Syth is the 5100 (Ive posted the right number / name above).
Ive requested my friends at motul  to speak to RE so that they allow customers to run fully synthetic if they want to.
Anyway I dont plan to return to the dealer for anything once all the problems with the new bike are sorted out. A few parts where defective from day one. And still not in stock.

Spares is big problem.
None are available right now.
They refused to sell me a barrel for my big bore effort, and they refused to sell me a head so I could start work on the flow bench.

Any idea whats the largest size piston you can run while retaining the stock studs and mounting points. Or what the wall thickness is on the stock liner.