HPRE

Menu

Members Rides

00 Military


in
Members Rides

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
October 01, 2014, 04:24:48 PM

Login with username, password and session length

 

Author Topic: Some new-owner Doubts.  (Read 2537 times)

chinoy

  • Bulleteer
  • ***
  • Posts: 242
  • Karma: 0
Some new-owner Doubts.
« on: December 21, 2009, 08:07:10 AM »
Guys had some doubts that you more experienced with the Bullet guys may be able to answer.

This is both on my brand new UCE and the Older Machismo 500

1. The Throttle.
It seems to work fine from closed to 50% open.
After you get it passed the 50% open position it would seem the engine isnt responding to the throttle any more. There seems to be no connection between the throttle and the engine.

On any other motor the engine seems to respond to the throttle no matter what the position of the throttle is.

First I thought it was a EFI issue. But my friend has a carb on his 500 and he says the exact same thing.

Other than trying to re-design the intake tract and play with stuff like valve area etc is there any other simpler fix.

2. It was nice to know the bullet has been mapped to the highest motor-able road.
But how can this be possible without a O2 sensor.
I work with a lot of ECUs which use O2 sensors. The Narrow band type is just marginal in the way it works i.e. you can just about manage the sensor only has 2 settings lean and rich. Not like a WB.
If you take even this out of the picture how will the engine run.
My thoughts are the engine is absurdly lean esp. at the higher throttle positions. Is this causing the lack of response after 50% open ?.
I know we need to data log a complete run and show as proof that its too lean. The data logging session is on the cards along with a base line Dyno pull.
But I can say its lean based on the plug chops done at various throttle ranges.

3. Do the US dealers get the PC / soft ware to hook up to the ECU.
If yes is it serial port based or USB port based.
And can you change any parameters with said s/w. Other bikes like the Bajaj Pulsar allow you to make changes to the AFRs. At the service center.

4. A PDF from one of the UK sites. Shows pictures of the old engine vs the new Engine. In that they have given the Ignition timing as 5 Deg BTDC / Static. This cant be true. Can somebody share what the actual timing is on the new UCE 500. The service center guys here say this bike has no timing.
Which basically means they dont know what it is.

Still love my bike. And just want it to run well and have a little more fun on it.








ace.cafe

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 8396
  • Karma: 0
  • World leaders in racing or performance Bullets
Re: Some new-owner Doubts.
« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2009, 03:40:48 PM »
Well, I"m not really up on all the ins-and-outs of tuning the UCE, but it does sound like an ECU related issue to me. But not necessarily the programming.

It might be running lean at the larger throttle openings, or it might be over-retarding the ignition timing for added load at the larger throttle openings, either one possibly causing power loss.

I don't know what may be possible to change in the programming of the ECU.
My experience with computer control systems is that if the program is running  then the most likely cause of malfunctions lies in the sensors or the actuators.
Maybe there are some sensor calibration issues.

For your friend with the carburetor, I'd try a larger main jet, and possibly a larger needle jet and see if that does anything.

As far as timing, I have no idea what the UCE static times at.
But, 5 degrees BTDC would not be a terribly unusual static timing number.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2009, 03:47:20 PM by ace.cafe »
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head . Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available .  AVL mods. Redditch 700/750 Twin mods. UCE kit soon.

Please visit my new website:
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AcePerformanceBullets/info

ScooterBob

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 2564
  • Karma: 0
  • Yeah - I get it ....
Re: Some new-owner Doubts.
« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2009, 03:45:25 PM »
...........OR the issue of a high-resistance in the connector at the injector or the fuel pump. Either way, it sounds like a warranty issue to ME .... Take it to you dealer and have them give it a look over .....
Spare the pig iron - spoil the part!

UncleErnie

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 2545
  • Karma: 0
Re: Some new-owner Doubts.
« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2009, 05:05:04 PM »
I was wondering how much cable free-play there is.  If there's more than a MM or 2, the cables are too loose and need adjustment.
Run what ya brung

chinoy

  • Bulleteer
  • ***
  • Posts: 242
  • Karma: 0
Re: Some new-owner Doubts.
« Reply #4 on: December 24, 2009, 07:15:08 AM »
Ive hooked up my Fluke Digital Scope and have taken recordings from all the sensors.
This allows me to map Injector Duty cycle to Map values
And to see how various sensors effect the injector.

Everything seems to be ok.
THe only sensor that needs to be replaced as it was defective from day one is the fuel level sensor.
But i dont think this should effect the ecu in any way

If we can decode how the 3 pin connector talks to the PC you could rig up a neat little data loger that logs everything from all your sensors your RPM and your AFRs. To something like a Palm Pilot or your laptop.

knowing kehin it could just be a regular basic odb port.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On-board_diagnostics

And you get ODB readers for pea nuts on ebay these days.
Or you could build your own.

Ice

  • Hypercafienated
  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 5084
  • Karma: 0
  • Ride In Paradise Cabo, Don and Ernie
Re: Some new-owner Doubts.
« Reply #5 on: December 24, 2009, 07:53:15 AM »
chinoy,
As far as I know you are the first to begin unraveling the mysteries of the UCE's EFI system.
I can break it better,,,,at night, in the rain, on the trail,, 20 miles from nowhere.

REA #136

"TIMEX", the '06 Iron Barrel Military that takes me everywhere I want to go... and some places I shouldn't.

chinoy

  • Bulleteer
  • ***
  • Posts: 242
  • Karma: 0
Re: Some new-owner Doubts.
« Reply #6 on: December 24, 2009, 09:23:57 AM »
No mysteries here bro.
It doesn't get simpler than this. Its the most basic EFI you could think off.

Now you want to talk about re-maping and tuning something like the latest 600RR or any of the new bikes like the latest ZX14 with staged buterflies and injectors, now that takes some doing.

My gut tells me the bike running absurdly lean. But without Proof Im not going to say much.
And not having O2 feedback on the Indian bikes was a decision I still don't understand or like.

First step is to know what they where thinking when they mapped it. (Economy over everything else I guess. But they have to realize a guy doesnt buy a 500cc bike in India for Economy). We allready have dozens of bikes that give up that.

Second is to get the AFRs where we want them with nothing more than maybe a few mods to the stock sensors and ECU.

Failing which a small replacement ECU which allows you to tune the engine will be needed.
But 9 times out of 10 you can tune the AFRs and timing with whats on the bike.

My first port of call will be seeing if we can increase the fuel pressure by a few PSI.
That normally does the trick on most engines. If that doesn't do it. Then replace the injector with something that has a little more flow rate.
The Maruti 800, 1.3 & 1.6 give you a nice range to chose from.


Can anybody tell me what a new ECU from the US would cost ?
Id like to compare the maps and power output.

There is no way this bike is making 27 BHP.
We build Mopeds with 135cc engines that make over 30 BHP under 9000 RPM.
And this feels like the engine is restricted. Need to figure out where and why.

The base line Dyno pull will be done as soon as the run-in is done.





jayprashanth

  • Scooter
  • **
  • Posts: 85
  • Karma: 0
Re: Some new-owner Doubts.
« Reply #7 on: December 26, 2009, 09:18:37 AM »
Ron,

As brother Ace said, lean running could be one cause. On my LB500, the half throttle syndrome used to happen till i got myself larger main jets. The stock 110 main jet returned a bone white plug at WOT.

Also, the omission of the Lambda sensor seems to be causing a lot if issues. People from up north of India are reporting very rich running and black smoke from the exhaust. Apparently RE got some remap done for all Indian EFI bullets from someone in IItaly as Indian EFI bullets didn't feature the lambda sensor. The remap doesn't seem to be working. So, they are going back to the drawing board and are trying to get another remap done to sort out the jetting. If this doesn't work, I guess they'll plonk on the lambda sensor for the Indian UCE EFIs shortly.

Cheers,

Jay

chinoy

  • Bulleteer
  • ***
  • Posts: 242
  • Karma: 0
Re: Some new-owner Doubts.
« Reply #8 on: December 29, 2009, 07:36:11 AM »
Thanks for confirming what I feel.
Because when I talk to the RE Tech guys here. Them make me feel like its all in my head and Im making it up.

Im not holding my breath waiting for them to come up with a fix.
Nor do I see them giving us the ECU or O2 sensor the rest of the world gets.

My Plan as of now is to see if I can get my simulated NB output to talk to the ECU.

chinoy

  • Bulleteer
  • ***
  • Posts: 242
  • Karma: 0
Re: Some new-owner Doubts.
« Reply #9 on: January 01, 2010, 10:21:13 AM »
One more thing which is slowly starting to bug me. And get under my skin.

Every body asks me why doesn't your bullet sound like a bullet.
Who the F cares man. I dont get this complete obsession with the sound.
And whats wrong with the new UCE sound. It sounds fine to me.

I think switching to a free flow loud exhaust will get these monkeys off my back.



t120rbullet

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 1950
  • Karma: 0
Re: Some new-owner Doubts.
« Reply #10 on: January 01, 2010, 01:23:22 PM »
Every body asks me why doesn't your bullet sound like a bullet.
Who the F cares man. I dont get this complete obsession with the sound.
And whats wrong with the new UCE sound. It sounds fine to me.

I was always led to believe that the "thump" was paramount in India. People would pass over dozens of bikes to find the magic one that gave them the thump that set their loins on fire.

But I'm with ya, mine sound just fine to me.
If yours sounds fine to you don't worry about it.
I think REM did a fine job of preserving the Bullet sound in the UCE even though that extra large bazooka muffler looks ugly and in my case is turning a nice shade of bluish gold.
CJ
1999 Enfield 500 Black Deluxe "Silver"
2012 Concours 14 (no name yet)
2013 Royal Star Venture S  "Jelly Roll"

Ice

  • Hypercafienated
  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 5084
  • Karma: 0
  • Ride In Paradise Cabo, Don and Ernie
Re: Some new-owner Doubts.
« Reply #11 on: January 01, 2010, 07:16:21 PM »
Emissions standards.
 That's why the exhaust music is kept to a lower "volume" level.
Think Euro 3, E.P.A.' MOT, C.A.R.B., Etc.

Earlier Bullets met the exhaust gas and sound emission standards of their time.
 
The UCE meets or beats the latest exhaust gas and sound emission standards.
I can break it better,,,,at night, in the rain, on the trail,, 20 miles from nowhere.

REA #136

"TIMEX", the '06 Iron Barrel Military that takes me everywhere I want to go... and some places I shouldn't.

chinoy

  • Bulleteer
  • ***
  • Posts: 242
  • Karma: 0
Re: Some new-owner Doubts.
« Reply #12 on: January 02, 2010, 08:32:20 PM »
The new mufflers are for sure way more restrictive.
I much prefer the upsweapt ones the dealer has promised to give me.
And finally Ill plug my own unit on.

singhg5

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 2230
  • Karma: 0
Re: Some new-owner Doubts.
« Reply #13 on: January 03, 2010, 05:06:14 PM »
Here are photos of ECU pin configuration / internal diagrams from the service manual.



1970's Jawa /  Yezdi
2006 Honda Nighthawk
2009 Royal Enfield Black G5

chinoy

  • Bulleteer
  • ***
  • Posts: 242
  • Karma: 0
Re: Some new-owner Doubts.
« Reply #14 on: January 04, 2010, 03:18:42 PM »
Thank you Ji
Dam I must get my hands on a service manual.

Do they say how much data the Eprom can store.
LOL so they know exactly how you've been running in your bike if things go south.

From the looks of it. The Ignition seems to be TCI not CDI.
Should be pretty easy to hook up a better ignition like the MSD or my own.

That 5 Deg Static timing is really bugging me.
How can any engine run on 5 Deg. ! That too static.
It has to change based on Map and RPM.

Do they say anything about the ignition timing in the book.


« Last Edit: January 04, 2010, 03:54:44 PM by chinoy »

elan

  • Neophyte
  • *
  • Posts: 10
  • Karma: 0
Re: Some new-owner Doubts.
« Reply #15 on: January 04, 2010, 05:51:57 PM »
Maybe I am just thick!, but isnt static timing set with engine not running? Thank god I have a classic.

chinoy

  • Bulleteer
  • ***
  • Posts: 242
  • Karma: 0
Re: Some new-owner Doubts.
« Reply #16 on: January 04, 2010, 06:03:54 PM »
Your probably right.

Normally its done at a pre-defined RPM. Because you need the engine to be actually running to check it with a strobe.
i.e. 8 Deg at Idle / 24 Deg at 3500 RPM etc.

Id love to see a picture of the 24 tooth trigger wheel.

ace.cafe

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 8396
  • Karma: 0
  • World leaders in racing or performance Bullets
Re: Some new-owner Doubts.
« Reply #17 on: January 04, 2010, 07:28:12 PM »
Thank you Ji
Dam I must get my hands on a service manual.

Do they say how much data the Eprom can store.
LOL so they know exactly how you've been running in your bike if things go south.

From the looks of it. The Ignition seems to be TCI not CDI.
Should be pretty easy to hook up a better ignition like the MSD or my own.

That 5 Deg Static timing is really bugging me.
How can any engine run on 5 Deg. ! That too static.
It has to change based on Map and RPM.

Do they say anything about the ignition timing in the book.




I'm certain that ignition timing will be automatically adjusted by the ECU, depending on what it reads from all the sensors.
The "static" timing is just the place you set it up, so that the ECU knows where it's starting out at.
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head . Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available .  AVL mods. Redditch 700/750 Twin mods. UCE kit soon.

Please visit my new website:
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AcePerformanceBullets/info

motocamp

  • Neophyte
  • *
  • Posts: 16
  • Karma: 0
Re: Some new-owner Doubts.
« Reply #18 on: January 05, 2010, 03:43:49 AM »
The timing advance on the efi 500 I believe is from 5 degrees btdc to 27 degrees btdc.

 once  the TPS senses the butterfly is past 40 degrees the timing   changes to a slightly different curve.

So you have two slightly different  timing curves at cruising and wot.    

« Last Edit: January 06, 2010, 03:16:39 AM by motocamp »

singhg5

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 2230
  • Karma: 0
Re: Some new-owner Doubts.
« Reply #19 on: January 06, 2010, 04:44:13 AM »
Thank you Ji
Do they say how much data the Eprom can store.
LOL so they know exactly how you've been running in your bike if things go south.

That 5 Deg Static timing is really bugging me.
How can any engine run on 5 Deg. ! That too static.
It has to change based on Map and RPM.
Do they say anything about the ignition timing in the book.

Yes, they know exactly what happens when things go south.  There is E2PROM - Electronically Erasable Programmable Read Only Memory that automatically records breakdown information.  It stores data even when the electricity is off.  There was no mention of the capacity as to how much data is stored.

Secondly, about crank position sensor - there are 23 short and 1 long protrusion on the alternator.  The long protrusion is located at 5 degrees before top dead center and is used as a reference mark for crankshaft position.  The position censor sends an alternating voltage signal to powertrain control module to determine engine speed and ingnition timing.  

The book also states that ECU cuts off fuel supply to injector if engine runs beyond maximum rated speed 5500 rpm and engine will stall and rpm will reduce to rated operating rpms for safety of moving engine parts.  
« Last Edit: January 06, 2010, 04:46:23 AM by singhg5 »
1970's Jawa /  Yezdi
2006 Honda Nighthawk
2009 Royal Enfield Black G5

chinoy

  • Bulleteer
  • ***
  • Posts: 242
  • Karma: 0
Re: Some new-owner Doubts.
« Reply #20 on: January 11, 2010, 10:47:58 AM »
Wow so they are limiting piston speed to 16.5 M/sec that is pretty conservative.

Singh Ji do you have a legend for the Text used in the last scan i.e. what is
NR/NLSW/PG1/PG2 i.e. what do these text stand for. ?

singhg5

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 2230
  • Karma: 0
Re: Some new-owner Doubts.
« Reply #21 on: January 12, 2010, 05:43:39 AM »
Singh Ji do you have a legend for the Text used in the last scan i.e. what is
NR/NLSW/PG1/PG2 i.e. what do these text stand for. ?

The ignition circuit shows PG1 going to Fuel Pump (pressure gauge ?), NLSW goes to clutch switch (neutral switch ?). 

PG2, not sure but appears to be some sort of ground.  NR is nowhere to be found in the circuit yet.

 
1970's Jawa /  Yezdi
2006 Honda Nighthawk
2009 Royal Enfield Black G5

chinoy

  • Bulleteer
  • ***
  • Posts: 242
  • Karma: 0
Re: Some new-owner Doubts.
« Reply #22 on: January 15, 2010, 10:56:03 AM »
Have started to tear into the engine.
Lotsa fun. Lotsa things that can be done.

The first observation.
The diffrence in engine note has nothing to do with the Emmision norms or the sound norms or the exhaust design.

The engine sounds different. Because the cams are diffirent.
The new cams are more closelly related to a screaming eagle Harley cam than they are to the old bullet cam. Which is a good thing.

If somebody could figure out a way to install the new cams onto an older bullet. It would good power.
Small hickcup. Old setup is 20 teeth on crank and 40 on the cam gear.
This one is 19 on the crank and 38 on the cam. If it wanst for this little difference. They bolt right one.

The run in and freeing up has less to do with your piston / liner gear box. And more to do with your valve springs going from absurdly stiff to normal.
The springs are so strong. Its hard to degree the cam. The pressure of the springs is enough to rotate the engine even in gear.

There are no 24 teeth. Only 23 short bumps and one bump which is slightly larger than the rest.

Its a regular pickup coil. Same as used on almost every motor cycle. From the RZ to the latest 4 strokes in the country. Its a high quality pickup coil. At over 200 Ohms. It produces one of the strongest signals Ive seen to date. Very clear signal on the scope.

The coil is triggered just like any other bike. By Bumps on the Magnetic Drum.
The Drum is pretty good. Only weighs 1.2 Kgs which is pretty light.
Very good quality parts where ever you look.