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Author Topic: Winter Battery Blues  (Read 6797 times)

singhg5

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Winter Battery Blues
« on: January 01, 2010, 10:24:38 PM »
Wish you all a very happy new year.

After many days of cold and snowy weather, the temperature slowly crawled up to 40F and I was all excited to go for a ride.  There were only a few hours of clear weather, more snow showers are on the way again.  Right now the roads were clean though there was  snow on the sides of the roads.  Riding in such scenery can be very pretty.  While I was still contemplating, 2 Harley guys just roared past my residence.  That was enough.  I had to go too.  Got ready and drove to my storage place, where my motorcycle is sheltered in a small room away from the elements.  As I took the bike out and turned the key and pushed the electric start button, it cranked a bit and did not start.  Waited a bit, tried again, grrr, grr, grrrr, grrrr.  Stop.  Waited and repeated.  Same thing.  It was not starting.  Kicked the kick start but no reply.  I could see the battery was draining.  I gave up after a few tries.  Took out the original battery - it is EXIDE 12MF 14L - A2.  (it has MX FREEDOM stamped on it - I did not think it was delivering freedom).  Got back to my place, and checked, it read 12.20 volts.  Hooked it up to charger and it is charging now.  The fluid levels are perfect in the battery.  

I had recently charged the battery and put it in the motorcycle about a week ago.  At that time it had read 12.4 volts.  I had a short 1 mile run on the bike and left it there until today.  Can one week of below freezing weather take juice out of battery ?

Now I am thinking of replacing it.  What do you guys think of YUASA - YTX 14 AHL - BS.  It is 12 Volts, CCA 210 and has same dimensions and polarity as the original Exide battery.  Is it worth it ?  Or they are all going to behave the same as temperature drops to freezing and below.  

  
« Last Edit: January 01, 2010, 10:38:19 PM by singhg5 »
1970's Jawa /  Yezdi
2006 Honda Nighthawk
2009 Royal Enfield Black G5

clubman

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Re: Winter Battery Blues
« Reply #1 on: January 02, 2010, 12:34:43 PM »
I don't claim any expertise on this matter but a battery should certainly work through winter unless it is knackered. (Years old I mean - I take it this original battery is quite new?) My own bike is still starting fine at zero and less. I crank the engine over with the kickstart just to get some oil to the top and then hit the button. (Of course I use the choke though this can be backed off very quickly.)  It turns over a few times but so far it's always fired. I think a gel battery is a good route to go anyway. A friend of mine put one in a bike that he only runs a few times a year and it always starts up even after months of inactivity.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2010, 09:37:25 PM by clubman »

UncleErnie

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Re: Winter Battery Blues
« Reply #2 on: January 02, 2010, 02:55:50 PM »
A sealed battery costs a lot more money, but it's worth it.  They aren't affected by temperature as much.  For winter- especially if you're going to use E-start, I recommend a thinner oil like 10-40 because it's much harder to get things moving when the oil thickens up.
The big thing though, is your head light is drawing power.  These bikes don't have a HL cut-out like most new bikes do, so your HL and starter are competing.  I think the HL usually wins.  Inside your nacelle/casquette is a short (3 or 4 inches) cable that connects the wires.  It has a plug on both ends.  Just take it out and re-connect the cable to itself.  This will make it so you have to use the HL switch on the handlebars.  The light won't be drawing power, BUT YOU WILL NEED TO TURN YOUR LIGHTS ON manually from now on. 

I also keep my battery on a battery tender.
Run what ya brung

Geirskogul

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Re: Winter Battery Blues
« Reply #3 on: January 02, 2010, 08:44:30 PM »
Does that jumper exist on the UCE bikes?
All hail Sir Lucas, Prince of Darkness.

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r80rt

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Re: Winter Battery Blues
« Reply #4 on: January 03, 2010, 12:34:33 AM »
There used to be a jumper on my C5, it's gone now.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2010, 06:31:31 PM by r80rt »
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JMHAZ

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Re: Winter Battery Blues
« Reply #5 on: January 03, 2010, 01:41:33 AM »
A jumper? That's excellent information! I noticed the non-operating headlight switch, and planned to dive in to the wiring harness and hook it up, so I could turn off the headlight while riding on slow dirt-road stretches to optimize charging. Nice to know it's a five-minute job.


ScooterBob

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Re: Winter Battery Blues
« Reply #6 on: January 03, 2010, 01:42:34 AM »
Does that jumper exist on the UCE bikes?

It's there and intact on the G5 - The C5, however, has a little "trickey" to it - you must restore the starter energise circuit to remove the jumper - this was done to presumably make it a bit harder to have manual headlight control ......  
Spare the pig iron - spoil the part!

heindlengineering

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Re: Winter Battery Blues
« Reply #7 on: January 03, 2010, 07:38:39 PM »
We have noticed that the Batteries in the UCE bikes will discharge much quicker than those in the AVL.  The easiest solution is to put it on a battery tender if it is going to sit for very long.

birdmove

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Re: Winter Battery Blues
« Reply #8 on: January 03, 2010, 08:53:33 PM »
  That's one of the things I like about my 2007 Classic. It will always kick start, no matter what condition the battery is in.

   jon
Jon in Keaau, Hawaii

bigedf150

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Re: Winter Battery Blues
« Reply #9 on: January 04, 2010, 04:03:18 AM »
if it aint got a kick starter i dont want it  :)

chinoy

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Re: Winter Battery Blues
« Reply #10 on: January 04, 2010, 01:57:37 PM »
Singh Ji
This is a new bike and a new Bat. yeah ?

Ok Something similar happened to me the other day.
Hit the starter and it makes a small sound but wont crank over.

I noticed the starter seemed to be getting weaker and weaker from day 1.
Till finally it stooped cranking over.

Ive used Excide for Years in all my cars and Bikes and I know they make good battery's.

So I dug out the old Multi meter.
The bat was showing 11 Volts. When I turned the key on the voltage was droping to 9.
If it falls below 9 the fuell pump is not able to build enoughf pressure on the rail. And it wont start.
But lucky for me with the choke on I was able to kick start it.
Then I checked the voltage again. And this time it showed me 20 Volts.
I blip-ed the throttle and it shot past 20 Volts.

Obviously the Regulator isnt working. And this has taken out the bat.

I spoke to the dealer and after he Oked it limped the bike over to him.

Ive tried to explain to them that the bat. will need to be replaced because with that kind of over voltage hitting its never going to run right.

My point seemed lost on him though.
Lets just say Im not going to be happy camper till they change the bat.

This is dangeorus. Because if the Regulator stops regulating. Its not like the old days.
Now you stand to loose the following items. At any voltage over 16
a. The ECU
b. The Injector
c. The Fuel Pump.

The long and short of it.
Before you do anything check your charging voltage.
Or it will take out your next bat. And some other stuff with it on your next ride.

If you do have the same problem. And need to ride the bike to the dealer.
Turn on your headlight once you start moving. The extra load will drop the d/c voltage.

The problem started after a long ride I did in the night.
(Do your run in with the coldest weather you can ride). The engine will thank you.

Exide Battery's are used by the army in Leh / Ladhak and they work fine.
The Bat. On the C5 is a good bat.
I would advise all C5 owners to have their bat and charging circuit checked from time to time.

If your in India. Any Exide Shop will check and service your bat free of cost.

In case your wondering the 5volt and 12 volt regulators used on most ECUs
Can handle short bursts of up to 30 Volts.
With your headlight always on. Its unlikely that you will see those kind of voltages.

Also check your fuse box. One of my fuses was loose.
The shorting of a loose fuse can take out stuff.

I have to go pick up the bike tomorrow.
Lets hope Im able to  get the bat. Changed.









« Last Edit: January 04, 2010, 02:27:44 PM by chinoy »

motocamp

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Re: Winter Battery Blues
« Reply #11 on: January 05, 2010, 03:21:57 AM »
Chinoy another problem in India is when you buy the bike form the dealer it is there responsibility to charge and fit the battery.

From our experience they never charge the battery at the correct infant charging rate which would be 1.4amps/hr for 8 to 10 hours for a 14 amp battery, they just fill it with acid charge it for a few hours at whatever charging rate  is set to on the charger and slap the battery on the bike! after that the batteries never perform to full potential.

I have used the exide batteries in very cold conditions without problem, but then none of my bikes have a E starter  ;D.






chinoy

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Re: Winter Battery Blues
« Reply #12 on: January 05, 2010, 05:14:23 AM »
You may be right.
But I did a through study off all the guys in Bangalore.
And picked the guy who had the best reputation in Technical Knowledge and customer satisfaction.

How it works in Bangalore is its the Exide show rooms responsibility to charge and hand over fresh batteries. The RE dealer doesn't even have a bat. Charger in his shop. The Excide show room is a stone throw from his shop. And they have the right chargers and procedures to follow from Exide.

So this didn't happen in my case. Im pretty sure.
What people dont realize is over charging a bat. is a slow killer.

What your talking about could happen in remote locations or small cities but I doubt it.
The Bat. comes from the Bat dealer. And it is only handed over after it is setup right.

Update:
Im a happy camper.
They changed my Bat. as of 1800 hours today its regulating my D/C to a steady 14 volts. As soon as I heard that I didn't bother pushing the issue or asking any questions. I assume the regulator was also changed.

A+ for service with a smile for the Dealer Boys.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2010, 01:21:16 PM by chinoy »

singhg5

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Re: Winter Battery Blues
« Reply #13 on: January 08, 2010, 03:35:05 AM »
Winter Battery Blues - Spark Plug Blacks

You all are familiar with Murphy's laws -  There are many and you can make your own too....   So I have added "Spark Plug Blacks" to the title.  Here it goes. 

I ordered and got a spanking black super-sealed Yuasa YTX14 AHL-BS 12 volts battery.  It read 12.9 volts and beautifully fits in my black G5 as if they are made for each other.

The day temperature had reached its max to 38F.  I turned the key and did all the routine, gently kicked the kick start a couple of times to move the oil and then pressed the e-start while holding down the bi-starter (choke)..  It cranked but did not start.  Waited and repeated a few times but no luck.  Lots of thoughts came to mind about what may be wrong. 

Finally I did the simplest thing.  I took out the spark plug.  It was printed with letters NGK B8ES Japan. The spark plug was black. I could smell gas on it.  I called motorcycle dealer and asked if he has that spark plug in stock.  He did.  Drove there picked up 2 plugs and put new one in. 

Pressed the e-start and right away the motorcycle comes alive - dug dug dug dug dug dug dug ........    ;D  It has been a month since I rode it due to bad and cold weather.  Out I go and had a great time.  Lots of heads peeking out of the windows of cars - seeing a lone black stallion on the road.  My hands were starting to freeze.  I got back, parked in storage room, took out the battery and at home checked its voltage - it read 12.88 volts. 

As Murphy says - Not one but two things may go wrong at the same time - Winter Battery Blues & Spark Plug Blacks.

   
1970's Jawa /  Yezdi
2006 Honda Nighthawk
2009 Royal Enfield Black G5

clubman

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Re: Winter Battery Blues
« Reply #14 on: January 08, 2010, 09:06:55 PM »
Glad you got it sorted! But how did that plug get so black - does anyone have any ideas? Time honoured laws of carburation mean the mixture was rich but this is not possible in EFI theory. Surely repeated failed attempts at starting while using choke would at worst oil the plug? And it's not a two stroke either. Am I missing something really obvious here? ???

t120rbullet

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Re: Winter Battery Blues
« Reply #15 on: January 08, 2010, 11:23:06 PM »
Winter Battery Blues - Spark Plug Blacks
Finally I did the simplest thing.  I took out the spark plug.  It was printed with letters NGK B8ES Japan. The spark plug was black. I could smell gas on it.  I called motorcycle dealer and asked if he has that spark plug in stock.  He did.  Drove there picked up 2 plugs and put new one in. 
  

Wrong plug for the UCE.
Way too cold, non-resistor and not a projected tip.
The correct NGK plug for the UCE is NGK BPR 6 ES or NGK BPR 6 EIX.
That's 2 heat ranges hotter, got a resistor and a projected tip.
The B8ES is the correct plug for the old iron motor.
When I tired a non-resistor plug in my G5 it idled really high. I'm surprised it didn't on yours.
CJ



1999 Enfield 500 Black Deluxe "Silver"
2012 Concours 14 (no name yet)
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ScooterBob

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Re: Winter Battery Blues
« Reply #16 on: January 09, 2010, 12:52:54 AM »
When I tired a non-resistor plug in my G5 it idled really high. I'm surprised it didn't on yours.
CJ


Because the darn thing was actually GETTING spark! ...... Other than controlling the secondary coil collapse oscillation - you don't NEED no stinkin' RESISTORS!!
Spare the pig iron - spoil the part!

t120rbullet

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Re: Winter Battery Blues
« Reply #17 on: January 09, 2010, 01:12:13 AM »
Because the darn thing was actually GETTING spark! ...... Other than controlling the secondary coil collapse oscillation - you don't NEED no stinkin' RESISTORS!!

When I found out the UCE used the NGK BPR 6 ES I had the idea I would use the
NGK BP6ET plugs that I've been running in my Iron motors since I had a bunch of em.
http://www.sparkplugs.com/results_cross.asp?pid=bp6et&x=58&y=10
Looked like the perfect match and it had 1 more ground than the stock Bosch plug did.
But the idle was so much higher that I wouldn't ride it that way without some adjustment so I just switched back to a resistor plug.
When I rode it out to Mo. I ran a BPR 8 EIX and it did OK. Don't think I'd run a plug that cold around town though, especially in cold weather.
Don't run a resistor plug in anything else though. If I can shut cellphones down from 100 yds with my EMF I'll do it.
CJ
1999 Enfield 500 Black Deluxe "Silver"
2012 Concours 14 (no name yet)
2013 Royal Star Venture S  "Jelly Roll"

chinoy

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Re: Winter Battery Blues
« Reply #18 on: January 09, 2010, 03:57:14 AM »
Glad you got it sorted! But how did that plug get so black - does anyone have any ideas? Time honoured laws of carburation mean the mixture was rich but this is not possible in EFI theory. Surely repeated failed attempts at starting while using choke would at worst oil the plug? And it's not a two stroke either. Am I missing something really obvious here? ???
Yes you are
When you design a good ECU you build what is called bat voltage compensation into it.
On an EFI setup everything is controlled by your bat voltage.
Your Fuel Pump Pressure and flow and the way your injector reacts. etc.
So you have a parameter which defines how injector pulse width is modified for every .1 Volt change in d/c voltage. But even this system only defines changes to Pulse width withing a window i.e. 10-16 Volts.
In fact when my RR and Bat went for a 6. I noticed the same rich fueling and black plugs.
All these symptoms would point to Mr. Singh having too much d/c voltage on his bike.

Now about Scooter Boobs Comment on Type of Plugs.
His view is ok for olld school bikes. Not the EFI.

Any Digital ECU / CDI which uses a Micro Processor to run. Must use a R type Plug & or Plug cap to protect it from EFI / EFI interfearence.

How bad is that Interference depends on how strong the spark is.
We have a CDI unit which can shut down all Electronic equipment in a 6 ft radius if not used with R type Plugs. And this includes other bikes and cars ECUs and your own bikes ECU.
On old school bikes you could dump the Resistor for a little more juice and pissing off the anybody with a TV or Radio. With the new school bikes you should keep the R if nothing but to protect your own ECU / Digital Processor from EMI and EFI.
THe thing is the EMI EFI effects the ECU is many ways. The worst way being it will shut the engine off.

On the heat Range issue. 6 sounds like an absurd number.
Why would RE use 6 on an air cooled motor. It makes no sense to me.
I would run a 7 or a 8. And then if I had fouling problems which I doubt. I would go back one number.
We run 7s on bone stock Liquid coooled engines. 8s on Liquid Cooled Engines with performance mods, and we even run 9s and 10s on fored induction engines.
My old 84 RZ runs 10s.

SIngh Ji.
I would still check your Bat voltage with the bike runing from time to time.
All the signs are there.

on my C5 I found the double earth straps and a projected nose.
If on installing this on your bike your Idle RPM went up. Then it means your engine actually likes the Plug. Just back off your Idle 1/2 turn. (On the EFI you will need a screw driver with a 90 Deg bend.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2010, 04:04:29 AM by chinoy »

t120rbullet

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Re: Winter Battery Blues
« Reply #19 on: January 09, 2010, 12:35:59 PM »
We run 7s on bone stock Liquid coooled engines. 8s on Liquid Cooled Engines with performance mods, and we even run 9s and 10s on fored induction engines.
My old 84 RZ runs 10s.

My diesel has glow plugs in it and my old Harley ran a 4 in the front cylinder and a 3 in the rear. But all that is meaningless seeing that were talking about a US G5 here. I've learned long ago not to try to convert other technologies to the Enfield especially modern technologies. UCE? OK a bit more modern but still an Enfield and I'm going to treat it like an Enfield not like anything else.

The G5s here come with a Bosch WR7 DDC4 plug. That plug don't exist in the US so we have to get whatever we can that will work. The plug that we can get that would be the closest to it is the NGK BPR 6 ES as it seems the Bosch 7 heat range runs a close parallel to the NGK 6 heat range but once again it's all guesswork since that Bosch plug don't show up in any of the charts I've seen over here.
The NGK B8ES that singhg5 is running in his G5 is the wrong plug for that bike.
If he want's to experiment with different heat ranges that's fine but the B8ES is still the wrong plug to start with. A BPR 8 ES would be. 

Another thing that will cause a black plug on a UCE is an exhaust leak at the head/pipe joint. A leak drawing some air into the pipe will fool the O2 sensor into thinking it's running lean and it will fatten up the mixture. (at least on mine).
CJ

1999 Enfield 500 Black Deluxe "Silver"
2012 Concours 14 (no name yet)
2013 Royal Star Venture S  "Jelly Roll"

chinoy

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Re: Winter Battery Blues
« Reply #20 on: January 10, 2010, 04:59:15 AM »
On a motor which is detonating with a NGK8 we normally replace the 8 with a Bosch 5 and the Deto goes away. So Id compare the Mico/Bosch 5 with a NGK 8.5

In fact the Mico/Bosch W5BC is in my book one of the all time best plugs Ive ever seen.
We have never had Deto on any engine runing this plug.

7 would be a good number for the C5.
In fact the latest Cheve Cars and all the stock Suzuki cars in our market come with 6s.
So running a 7 on an air cooled motor makes sense.

Also what most people dont realize is that if you switch from a projected plug to a non projected. Your moving your sparking point a good 2-4mm around.
This has the same effect as changing your timing.

As a rule of thumb. Projected nose plugs run better is most engines. If they can take it.
Im sorry Im not up to speed on the Plugs sused in the Bullet.
But I did notice them go filthy rich when my Bat was being hit with over voltage.
And once we fixed the Bat (d/c voltage). It went back to being normal.

singhg5

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Re: Winter Battery Blues
« Reply #21 on: January 11, 2010, 05:21:01 AM »
SIngh Ji.
I would still check your Bat voltage with the bike runing from time to time.
All the signs are there.

on my C5 I found the double earth straps and a projected nose.
If on installing this on your bike your Idle RPM went up. Then it means your engine actually likes the Plug. Just back off your Idle 1/2 turn. (On the EFI you will need a screw driver with a 90 Deg bend.

Thank you Ron Ji:  I will check the voltage with the bike running.

I have a question -  What spark plug is (was) originally in your C5 in India ? Was it Bosch WR 7 DDC 4 as mentioned in the service manual ?  If you have its picture and dimensions can you post that ? As mentioned by t120rbullet, we do not have any clue on this spark plug made in India by Mico (India Bosch).   

I have no idea what was in my G5 when it came from India to USA because I had never looked at the spark plug details.  We had more serious problem of transmission and bikes were recalled and then rebuilt.  The spark plug NGK B8ES may have been put in after the engine was rebuilt by local dealers. 

Thanks for your input.   


1970's Jawa /  Yezdi
2006 Honda Nighthawk
2009 Royal Enfield Black G5

singhg5

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Re: Winter Battery Blues
« Reply #22 on: January 11, 2010, 05:42:00 AM »
Wrong plug for the UCE.
Way too cold, non-resistor and not a projected tip.
The correct NGK plug for the UCE is NGK BPR 6 ES or NGK BPR 6 EIX.
That's 2 heat ranges hotter, got a resistor and a projected tip.
The B8ES is the correct plug for the old iron motor.
When I tired a non-resistor plug in my G5 it idled really high. I'm surprised it didn't on yours.
CJ

Thanks CJ:

In your opinion NGK BPR 6 ES is the way to go.  When you got your G5, did you notice what spark plug was in it ?  Was your bike also recalled and if so did the dealer put in a different spark plug after repairs ? Do you have a picture and dimensions of original plug ? Are you running the BPR 6 ES now and how is it ?

As mentioned in my previous post, I never opened my spark plug until now.  I have over 4000 miles on my G5 using the same thing what was given to me by my dealer after recall and repairs.  

Thanks for all your efforts and comments and searches.  I did notice your March 2009 thread on the Indian Mico plug.  Royaloilfield deciphered part of the puzzle of WR7 DDC4.  Still missing piece is D - thread length spark position - how many millimeters is that in this Mico plug ?  Does CMW have original plugs?  Another problem is how to convert heat range code of 7 of Mico (India Bosch) to 6 of NGK ?  Moreover, India is much hotter than here.  So the recommendations of RE in India may be different than those for bikes in colder climate. 
 

  
« Last Edit: January 11, 2010, 05:47:45 AM by singhg5 »
1970's Jawa /  Yezdi
2006 Honda Nighthawk
2009 Royal Enfield Black G5

singhg5

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Re: Winter Battery Blues
« Reply #23 on: January 11, 2010, 05:57:44 AM »
Glad you got it sorted!

Hello Clubman. 
Since you are in UK, chinoy in India, I and t120 in USA,  I want to get a picture of what each of us is getting in three different continents.
I would like to know what spark plug is (was) originally in your bike.  Do you have a picture and dimensions of that ?  I am assuming you have UCE - do you ? 
Thanks.

1970's Jawa /  Yezdi
2006 Honda Nighthawk
2009 Royal Enfield Black G5

jayprashanth

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Re: Winter Battery Blues
« Reply #24 on: January 11, 2010, 08:07:46 AM »
Yeah, Royal Enfield uses the Mico Bosch plug in all their domestic models including the Classic C5. According to word in the factory, they are going to change over to NGK plugs for the domestic UCE500s too, in the near future.

Cheers,

Jay

chinoy

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Re: Winter Battery Blues
« Reply #25 on: January 11, 2010, 09:29:36 AM »
I hope they dont change over.
But then again most of these decisions are handeled by the bean counters and for them L1 (Lowest quote) rules.

The Mico or Bosch Plugs are hard to beat.
Singh Ji.
I will take my plugs out and take some pictures for you.
They are like 1$ a plug. Maybe Ill send you a few.

The C5 has two plugs. So I fail to see how a plug could prevent you from starting up.
Ive tried runing the bike on a single plug and it runs fine. Even with the other terminal shorted.

In fact you cant tell the diff. Between single plug running and both plugs running.
Ive not been able to notice any change in performance either. (Checked with a Road Dyno).
The HT coil as used on the C5 is just like the coil as used on the Banshee / RZ / LC.
One coil two leads. Both sparks happen at the same time.

There is an issue of Polarity with these types of coils. i.e. one plug will allways see less juice than the other.
In the old days to prevent the one side seeing less juice from fouling your plugs.
A guy on macdizzy came up with the idea that you swap the leads every now and then.
But I dont think you need to do this on the bullet.


t120rbullet

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Re: Winter Battery Blues
« Reply #26 on: January 11, 2010, 11:50:14 AM »
In your opinion NGK BPR 6 ES is the way to go.  When you got your G5, did you notice what spark plug was in it ?  Was your bike also recalled and if so did the dealer put in a different spark plug after repairs ? Do you have a picture and dimensions of original plug ? Are you running the BPR 6 ES now and how is it ?

I've got a NGK BPR 6 EIX in mine now. When I took it out to Mo. I ran a NGK BPR 8 EIX in it.  I've had good luck with the EIX series of plugs in the past.
Mine came with the Bosch WR 7 DDC 4 in it. I'd still be running it if I didn't drop it on the garage floor. I haven't been able to source that plug here in the US so far.
CJ
 
1999 Enfield 500 Black Deluxe "Silver"
2012 Concours 14 (no name yet)
2013 Royal Star Venture S  "Jelly Roll"

t120rbullet

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Re: Winter Battery Blues
« Reply #27 on: January 11, 2010, 12:14:39 PM »

The C5 has two plugs. So I fail to see how a plug could prevent you from starting up.
Ive tried runing the bike on a single plug and it runs fine. Even with the other terminal shorted.

The HT coil as used on the C5 is just like the coil as used on the Banshee / RZ / LC.
One coil two leads. Both sparks happen at the same time.


The US C5-G5 have only 1 sparkplug and a single lead coil.
CJ
1999 Enfield 500 Black Deluxe "Silver"
2012 Concours 14 (no name yet)
2013 Royal Star Venture S  "Jelly Roll"

chinoy

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Re: Winter Battery Blues
« Reply #28 on: January 11, 2010, 03:08:43 PM »
wow you lucky guys. Im all envious now.
Learn something new here every day.

So is this a central plug or is it off to one side.
And I take it the second plug hole is blocked off.
I should have a compatiblity sheet which lists all plugs with equvilents from other companies I will try and dig it up and post it.

t120rbullet

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Re: Winter Battery Blues
« Reply #29 on: January 11, 2010, 04:49:17 PM »
wow you lucky guys. Im all envious now.
Learn something new here every day.

So is this a central plug or is it off to one side.
And I take it the second plug hole is blocked off.
I should have a compatiblity sheet which lists all plugs with equvilents from other companies I will try and dig it up and post it.


The plug is off to the left side. The boss on the right side was never drilled for a plug.
From what I was told by one of the factory engineers the dual plugs on the home market bikes are there to help meet emission standards without the use of a cat converter. Maybe that's why you don't have the O2 sensor too.
I wish that would work for the US models too then we wouldn't need the gonzo purple mufflers we have now.

I'd appreciate a cross reference for that Bosch plug as it is like it doesn't exist over here.
CJ
1999 Enfield 500 Black Deluxe "Silver"
2012 Concours 14 (no name yet)
2013 Royal Star Venture S  "Jelly Roll"

bergerac

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Re: Winter Battery Blues
« Reply #30 on: January 12, 2010, 12:39:10 AM »
Re the Exide MX Freedom 12MF14L-A2 on the G5. I took the battery side cover off yesterday and noticed what I thought was drops of water on the inside of cover. I thought, strange - I haven't been thru rain lately, I felt it, in a few secs - OUCH! it was acid. Took the battery out and the filler holes cap off and top and side of battery was wet with acid. Two thoughts came to mind. 1) It was originally overfilled and 2) where a vent tube normally is, there was no vent tube and the side vent hole seems blocked. I wondered if any others had a vent tube on their Exide?
 
2009 Black G5

chinoy

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Re: Winter Battery Blues
« Reply #31 on: January 12, 2010, 08:43:55 AM »
Its called Bubbling and it happens if you hit your bat with too much d/c.
Please just check your charging voltage. With the bike runing at diffirent RPMs.
Hook up a MM and blip the throtell.
When they replaced my RR unit I noticed the voltage would not cross 14 Volts.


Singh Ji
The Plug on the Indian Bikes is a Bosch R6
Its a long reach plug with two earth straps.
And the number on it is WR7DDC4,
If this is a Bosch 6 then its probably equal to a NGK 7. I say 6 because it has R6 also stamped on the Plug.
The smaller Plug is a UR5DC (Which I plan to blank off).

If I was in your shoes.
This is an air cooled motor. Which gets really really hot.
Climatic changes will help but not by much. Its more about the kind of roads you ride on. The temp spikes happen in slow moving traffic.

I would start with the safest plug I can get. And then if it fouled. I would move down a number.
This is how we solved the plug issues on the Formula racing cars when they started to act up with the stock plugs.

Also inspect your plug with a loupe 10X min look for small beads of Ali.
Look to see if the edges of the electrode are rounding off. All signs of over heating.

« Last Edit: January 14, 2010, 07:17:37 AM by chinoy »

singhg5

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Re: Winter Battery Blues
« Reply #32 on: January 16, 2010, 05:25:26 AM »
SIngh Ji.

on my C5 I found the double earth straps and a projected nose.
If on installing this on your bike your Idle RPM went up. Then it means your engine actually likes the Plug. Just back off your Idle 1/2 turn. (On the EFI you will need a screw driver with a 90 Deg bend.

Ron Ji:

I have replaced the B8ES spark plug with a projected spark plug with resistor - BPR7 ES (NGK).  I noticed that the bike starts much faster, the idle is little higher, its engine sound is crisper, fuller, and shorter bursts.  It likes to be up shifted (its gears) at a lower speed than before.  The engine responds faster to throttle changes.

Can you elaborate more on the "Just back off idle 1/2 turn...you will need a screw driver with a 90 Deg bend". 

I also want to know your and other members' opinions on the first photo below.  It is B8ES spark plug with only 40 miles on it and you see some black carbon on threads (not on the white insulation).  My question is - is it normal or was it too cold and not burning gas properly ?  During that 40 miles (done in two runs of 10 and 30 miles on two different days), the bike ran fine and no start up problems.  The second picture is the new spark plug BPR7 ES (NGK).

Thanks.

1970's Jawa /  Yezdi
2006 Honda Nighthawk
2009 Royal Enfield Black G5

singhg5

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Re: Winter Battery Blues
« Reply #33 on: January 16, 2010, 05:38:11 AM »
Re the Exide MX Freedom 12MF14L-A2 on the G5. I took the battery side cover off yesterday and noticed what I thought was drops of water on the inside of cover. I thought, strange - I haven't been thru rain lately, I felt it, in a few secs - OUCH! it was acid.
I wondered if any others had a vent tube on their Exide?
 

Even though Exide has been making batteries for long time world wide but the (unsealed acid battery is no match for Yuasa Sealed battery.  No more OUCHs !! No fiddling with the cover !! No worries of vent tubes !! And above all its performance is better.  It is worth it.


1970's Jawa /  Yezdi
2006 Honda Nighthawk
2009 Royal Enfield Black G5

chinoy

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Re: Winter Battery Blues
« Reply #34 on: January 16, 2010, 06:50:03 AM »
Singh Ji
What you have observed is natrual.
You know the laws of flame front propagation.
The flame front has a speed Im too lazy to dig out my copy of Blair to give you the ball park number. If my memory is not shot its +- 30 Mtr/Sec depending on factors such as turbulance, compresion, MSV, Squish etc.

When you go from a Projected nose plug to a non projected nose plug you are in effect changing the timing of your engine. (When I first proposed this idea I was laughfed at). Nowdays everybody accepts it.

How much exactly your plug advances or retards the timing is based on the difference in the spark point. Say the difference in height between a Projected nose and a non projected nose is 2mm. Then on an engine with a 54mm stroke that is like 20 Deg.

Its a well known fact that if you take an engine with a non projected plug and replace it with a projected plug. The engine will feel like the timing has been advanced.
Advancing the timing has allmost the same effect as increasing your compresion.

When you where using the non projected plug. Your engine was runing as it would if you  had moved yoru firing point closer to TDC.

With the projected nose plug your now feeling like you have moded your engine to fire way before TDC.

Looking at the picture of your plug. All I see is a bone white plug.
Forget about the carbon on the threads. Read up on google about reading spark plugs and doing plug chops.

There is no way in hell that plug is fouled.

So in summary
a. If the orignal plug is a Projected Nose Plug. Run a projected nose Plug. The only exception being say when a bike has just been rebuilt and we do not trust the owner to run it in right. We put in a non projected plug to back off the timing.

b. If you change your timing to fire more BTDC then your RPM will go up and the bike will feel more peppy.

Pic of TB attached.
You need to turn the brass screw next to the choke with a screw driver.
Ive seen the guys at RE use a regular screw driver to do this.
This is your IDLE RPM adjuster.





clubman

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Re: Winter Battery Blues
« Reply #35 on: January 17, 2010, 09:28:58 PM »
Hello Clubman. 
Since you are in UK, chinoy in India, I and t120 in USA,  I want to get a picture of what each of us is getting in three different continents.
I would like to know what spark plug is (was) originally in your bike.  Do you have a picture and dimensions of that ?  I am assuming you have UCE - do you ? 
Thanks.



Sorry for the delay in getting back to you on this! I couldn't access my bike until the weekend but I finally got the plug out today and it is a Bosch R6 so same as standard issue in India. And yes, it's a UCE. This plug is performing with no problems at all even though the climate here right now is somewhat different to that of India.

chinoy

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Re: Winter Battery Blues
« Reply #36 on: January 18, 2010, 06:11:21 AM »
Singh ji check out a plug called the split fire it has 4 earth straps.

If you look at the design of the UCE head with the plug stuck in one corner.
Geting the plug indexed is critical i.e. you dont want the spark facing the wall of the cylinder rather you want it pointing to the center of the cyclinder.

If you can index your plug your set. If not you will just need to get a plug with more than one earth strap. Ive not seen plugs with two earth streaps but I have seen ones with 4 straps in the US and UK.

singhg5

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Re: Winter Battery Blues
« Reply #37 on: January 19, 2010, 03:02:39 AM »
Singh Ji
What you have observed is natrual.
You know the laws of flame front propagation.
The flame front has a speed Im too lazy to dig out my copy of Blair to give you the ball park number. If my memory is not shot its +- 30 Mtr/Sec depending on factors such as turbulance, compresion, MSV, Squish etc.

When you go from a Projected nose plug to a non projected nose plug you are in effect changing the timing of your engine. Say the difference in height between a Projected nose and a non projected nose is 2mm. Then on an engine with a 54mm stroke that is like 20 Deg.

Its a well known fact that if you take an engine with a non projected plug and replace it with a projected plug. The engine will feel like the timing has been advanced.
Advancing the timing has allmost the same effect as increasing your compresion.

With the projected nose plug your now feeling like you have moded your engine to fire way before TDC.

So in summary
a. If the orignal plug is a Projected Nose Plug. Run a projected nose Plug. The only exception being say when a bike has just been rebuilt and we do not trust the owner to run it in right. We put in a non projected plug to back off the timing.

b. If you change your timing to fire more BTDC then your RPM will go up and the bike will feel more peppy.

Pic of TB attached.
You need to turn the brass screw next to the choke with a screw driver.
Ive seen the guys at RE use a regular screw driver to do this.
This is your IDLE RPM adjuster.
Ron Ji:

Thanks for the picture and explanation

Recently I noticed that when I stop at a traffic red light, waiting for it to turn green, the idle slows down - ECU is sensing and sending signals to slow down.  After a few seconds it goes up again.  The idle gradually fluctuates a little up and then down and then up again like a wave - like some cars do.  So the question is what is the RANGE of idle that is acceptable ?  Do you have a close up video and sound recording of your bike at idle ? 
1970's Jawa /  Yezdi
2006 Honda Nighthawk
2009 Royal Enfield Black G5

chinoy

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Re: Winter Battery Blues
« Reply #38 on: January 20, 2010, 06:24:11 AM »
Singh Ji
No I dont have a recording and its going to be a long long time before I have my engine running again.
Right now its striped to bits and i am blue printing it. And studying it. Ps: The ring size was 1.12mm. The piston pin dia is 19.96.
This is what I do with any new engine.
Run it in. Sort out basic warranty issues. Then strip. Blue print and study.
Lets just say doing the bullet is lots of fun. because you have so many things to blue print :lol:


I think you just need to set your idle RPM to match your new plugs.
You will need a tacho.
I recommend any timing light with RPM. I use the OTC Stinger it has Tacho / Bat voltage and many other cool features.
Or you can buy a contact less Tacho i.e. just hold it near the engine and it gives you the RPM.

Try different RPM settings from 900-1100.
Always do it after the engine is warmed up.


clubman

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Re: Winter Battery Blues
« Reply #39 on: January 27, 2010, 01:25:09 PM »
Winter Battery Blues - Spark Plug Blacks

I ordered and got a spanking black super-sealed Yuasa YTX14 AHL-BS 12 volts battery.  It read 12.9 volts and beautifully fits in my black G5 as if they are made for each other.
   

I checked this out wondering if it was a gel battery but it is acid filled, albeit maintenance free. I then spent a good half hour on a lot of websites trying to find a gel battery of the same dimensions but didn't manage to. So question - does anyone know of a gel battery that would fit the G5? Thanks.  :)

PhilJ

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Re: Winter Battery Blues
« Reply #40 on: January 27, 2010, 04:01:11 PM »
I checked this out wondering if it was a gel battery but it is acid filled, albeit maintenance free. I then spent a good half hour on a lot of websites trying to find a gel battery of the same dimensions but didn't manage to. So question - does anyone know of a gel battery that would fit the G5? Thanks.  :)
Clubman, the G5 should take the same as the classic 500ES. On my AVL Classic i'm using an Extreme power sport ETX15L. I just noticed that it has been replaced by another model. However, the battery I have is the best motorcycle battery I've ever had, and American made.
BTW, an Gel Cell battery, while good, utilizes a different charger for proper charging. Plus they have slightly lower voltages than lead acid or AGM.

You can find them at this location.

http://www.bikebatts.com/product_info.php?cPath=1_1462_1465&products_id=343&osCsid=4c3525a356856c8888c9af0bcb2626a8
« Last Edit: January 27, 2010, 04:16:32 PM by PhilJ »

chinoy

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Re: Winter Battery Blues
« Reply #41 on: January 27, 2010, 04:57:50 PM »