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Author Topic: Winter Battery Blues  (Read 6503 times)

t120rbullet

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Re: Winter Battery Blues
« Reply #15 on: January 08, 2010, 11:23:06 PM »
Winter Battery Blues - Spark Plug Blacks
Finally I did the simplest thing.  I took out the spark plug.  It was printed with letters NGK B8ES Japan. The spark plug was black. I could smell gas on it.  I called motorcycle dealer and asked if he has that spark plug in stock.  He did.  Drove there picked up 2 plugs and put new one in. 
  

Wrong plug for the UCE.
Way too cold, non-resistor and not a projected tip.
The correct NGK plug for the UCE is NGK BPR 6 ES or NGK BPR 6 EIX.
That's 2 heat ranges hotter, got a resistor and a projected tip.
The B8ES is the correct plug for the old iron motor.
When I tired a non-resistor plug in my G5 it idled really high. I'm surprised it didn't on yours.
CJ



1999 Enfield 500 Black Deluxe "Silver"
2012 Concours 14 (no name yet)
2013 Royal Star Venture S  "Jelly Roll"

ScooterBob

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Re: Winter Battery Blues
« Reply #16 on: January 09, 2010, 12:52:54 AM »
When I tired a non-resistor plug in my G5 it idled really high. I'm surprised it didn't on yours.
CJ


Because the darn thing was actually GETTING spark! ...... Other than controlling the secondary coil collapse oscillation - you don't NEED no stinkin' RESISTORS!!
Spare the pig iron - spoil the part!

t120rbullet

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Re: Winter Battery Blues
« Reply #17 on: January 09, 2010, 01:12:13 AM »
Because the darn thing was actually GETTING spark! ...... Other than controlling the secondary coil collapse oscillation - you don't NEED no stinkin' RESISTORS!!

When I found out the UCE used the NGK BPR 6 ES I had the idea I would use the
NGK BP6ET plugs that I've been running in my Iron motors since I had a bunch of em.
http://www.sparkplugs.com/results_cross.asp?pid=bp6et&x=58&y=10
Looked like the perfect match and it had 1 more ground than the stock Bosch plug did.
But the idle was so much higher that I wouldn't ride it that way without some adjustment so I just switched back to a resistor plug.
When I rode it out to Mo. I ran a BPR 8 EIX and it did OK. Don't think I'd run a plug that cold around town though, especially in cold weather.
Don't run a resistor plug in anything else though. If I can shut cellphones down from 100 yds with my EMF I'll do it.
CJ
1999 Enfield 500 Black Deluxe "Silver"
2012 Concours 14 (no name yet)
2013 Royal Star Venture S  "Jelly Roll"

chinoy

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Re: Winter Battery Blues
« Reply #18 on: January 09, 2010, 03:57:14 AM »
Glad you got it sorted! But how did that plug get so black - does anyone have any ideas? Time honoured laws of carburation mean the mixture was rich but this is not possible in EFI theory. Surely repeated failed attempts at starting while using choke would at worst oil the plug? And it's not a two stroke either. Am I missing something really obvious here? ???
Yes you are
When you design a good ECU you build what is called bat voltage compensation into it.
On an EFI setup everything is controlled by your bat voltage.
Your Fuel Pump Pressure and flow and the way your injector reacts. etc.
So you have a parameter which defines how injector pulse width is modified for every .1 Volt change in d/c voltage. But even this system only defines changes to Pulse width withing a window i.e. 10-16 Volts.
In fact when my RR and Bat went for a 6. I noticed the same rich fueling and black plugs.
All these symptoms would point to Mr. Singh having too much d/c voltage on his bike.

Now about Scooter Boobs Comment on Type of Plugs.
His view is ok for olld school bikes. Not the EFI.

Any Digital ECU / CDI which uses a Micro Processor to run. Must use a R type Plug & or Plug cap to protect it from EFI / EFI interfearence.

How bad is that Interference depends on how strong the spark is.
We have a CDI unit which can shut down all Electronic equipment in a 6 ft radius if not used with R type Plugs. And this includes other bikes and cars ECUs and your own bikes ECU.
On old school bikes you could dump the Resistor for a little more juice and pissing off the anybody with a TV or Radio. With the new school bikes you should keep the R if nothing but to protect your own ECU / Digital Processor from EMI and EFI.
THe thing is the EMI EFI effects the ECU is many ways. The worst way being it will shut the engine off.

On the heat Range issue. 6 sounds like an absurd number.
Why would RE use 6 on an air cooled motor. It makes no sense to me.
I would run a 7 or a 8. And then if I had fouling problems which I doubt. I would go back one number.
We run 7s on bone stock Liquid coooled engines. 8s on Liquid Cooled Engines with performance mods, and we even run 9s and 10s on fored induction engines.
My old 84 RZ runs 10s.

SIngh Ji.
I would still check your Bat voltage with the bike runing from time to time.
All the signs are there.

on my C5 I found the double earth straps and a projected nose.
If on installing this on your bike your Idle RPM went up. Then it means your engine actually likes the Plug. Just back off your Idle 1/2 turn. (On the EFI you will need a screw driver with a 90 Deg bend.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2010, 04:04:29 AM by chinoy »

t120rbullet

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Re: Winter Battery Blues
« Reply #19 on: January 09, 2010, 12:35:59 PM »
We run 7s on bone stock Liquid coooled engines. 8s on Liquid Cooled Engines with performance mods, and we even run 9s and 10s on fored induction engines.
My old 84 RZ runs 10s.

My diesel has glow plugs in it and my old Harley ran a 4 in the front cylinder and a 3 in the rear. But all that is meaningless seeing that were talking about a US G5 here. I've learned long ago not to try to convert other technologies to the Enfield especially modern technologies. UCE? OK a bit more modern but still an Enfield and I'm going to treat it like an Enfield not like anything else.

The G5s here come with a Bosch WR7 DDC4 plug. That plug don't exist in the US so we have to get whatever we can that will work. The plug that we can get that would be the closest to it is the NGK BPR 6 ES as it seems the Bosch 7 heat range runs a close parallel to the NGK 6 heat range but once again it's all guesswork since that Bosch plug don't show up in any of the charts I've seen over here.
The NGK B8ES that singhg5 is running in his G5 is the wrong plug for that bike.
If he want's to experiment with different heat ranges that's fine but the B8ES is still the wrong plug to start with. A BPR 8 ES would be. 

Another thing that will cause a black plug on a UCE is an exhaust leak at the head/pipe joint. A leak drawing some air into the pipe will fool the O2 sensor into thinking it's running lean and it will fatten up the mixture. (at least on mine).
CJ

1999 Enfield 500 Black Deluxe "Silver"
2012 Concours 14 (no name yet)
2013 Royal Star Venture S  "Jelly Roll"

chinoy

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Re: Winter Battery Blues
« Reply #20 on: January 10, 2010, 04:59:15 AM »
On a motor which is detonating with a NGK8 we normally replace the 8 with a Bosch 5 and the Deto goes away. So Id compare the Mico/Bosch 5 with a NGK 8.5

In fact the Mico/Bosch W5BC is in my book one of the all time best plugs Ive ever seen.
We have never had Deto on any engine runing this plug.

7 would be a good number for the C5.
In fact the latest Cheve Cars and all the stock Suzuki cars in our market come with 6s.
So running a 7 on an air cooled motor makes sense.

Also what most people dont realize is that if you switch from a projected plug to a non projected. Your moving your sparking point a good 2-4mm around.
This has the same effect as changing your timing.

As a rule of thumb. Projected nose plugs run better is most engines. If they can take it.
Im sorry Im not up to speed on the Plugs sused in the Bullet.
But I did notice them go filthy rich when my Bat was being hit with over voltage.
And once we fixed the Bat (d/c voltage). It went back to being normal.

singhg5

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Re: Winter Battery Blues
« Reply #21 on: January 11, 2010, 05:21:01 AM »
SIngh Ji.
I would still check your Bat voltage with the bike runing from time to time.
All the signs are there.

on my C5 I found the double earth straps and a projected nose.
If on installing this on your bike your Idle RPM went up. Then it means your engine actually likes the Plug. Just back off your Idle 1/2 turn. (On the EFI you will need a screw driver with a 90 Deg bend.

Thank you Ron Ji:  I will check the voltage with the bike running.

I have a question -  What spark plug is (was) originally in your C5 in India ? Was it Bosch WR 7 DDC 4 as mentioned in the service manual ?  If you have its picture and dimensions can you post that ? As mentioned by t120rbullet, we do not have any clue on this spark plug made in India by Mico (India Bosch).   

I have no idea what was in my G5 when it came from India to USA because I had never looked at the spark plug details.  We had more serious problem of transmission and bikes were recalled and then rebuilt.  The spark plug NGK B8ES may have been put in after the engine was rebuilt by local dealers. 

Thanks for your input.   


1970's Jawa /  Yezdi
2006 Honda Nighthawk
2009 Royal Enfield Black G5

singhg5

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Re: Winter Battery Blues
« Reply #22 on: January 11, 2010, 05:42:00 AM »
Wrong plug for the UCE.
Way too cold, non-resistor and not a projected tip.
The correct NGK plug for the UCE is NGK BPR 6 ES or NGK BPR 6 EIX.
That's 2 heat ranges hotter, got a resistor and a projected tip.
The B8ES is the correct plug for the old iron motor.
When I tired a non-resistor plug in my G5 it idled really high. I'm surprised it didn't on yours.
CJ

Thanks CJ:

In your opinion NGK BPR 6 ES is the way to go.  When you got your G5, did you notice what spark plug was in it ?  Was your bike also recalled and if so did the dealer put in a different spark plug after repairs ? Do you have a picture and dimensions of original plug ? Are you running the BPR 6 ES now and how is it ?

As mentioned in my previous post, I never opened my spark plug until now.  I have over 4000 miles on my G5 using the same thing what was given to me by my dealer after recall and repairs.  

Thanks for all your efforts and comments and searches.  I did notice your March 2009 thread on the Indian Mico plug.  Royaloilfield deciphered part of the puzzle of WR7 DDC4.  Still missing piece is D - thread length spark position - how many millimeters is that in this Mico plug ?  Does CMW have original plugs?  Another problem is how to convert heat range code of 7 of Mico (India Bosch) to 6 of NGK ?  Moreover, India is much hotter than here.  So the recommendations of RE in India may be different than those for bikes in colder climate. 
 

  
« Last Edit: January 11, 2010, 05:47:45 AM by singhg5 »
1970's Jawa /  Yezdi
2006 Honda Nighthawk
2009 Royal Enfield Black G5

singhg5

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Re: Winter Battery Blues
« Reply #23 on: January 11, 2010, 05:57:44 AM »
Glad you got it sorted!

Hello Clubman. 
Since you are in UK, chinoy in India, I and t120 in USA,  I want to get a picture of what each of us is getting in three different continents.
I would like to know what spark plug is (was) originally in your bike.  Do you have a picture and dimensions of that ?  I am assuming you have UCE - do you ? 
Thanks.

1970's Jawa /  Yezdi
2006 Honda Nighthawk
2009 Royal Enfield Black G5

jayprashanth

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Re: Winter Battery Blues
« Reply #24 on: January 11, 2010, 08:07:46 AM »
Yeah, Royal Enfield uses the Mico Bosch plug in all their domestic models including the Classic C5. According to word in the factory, they are going to change over to NGK plugs for the domestic UCE500s too, in the near future.

Cheers,

Jay

chinoy

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Re: Winter Battery Blues
« Reply #25 on: January 11, 2010, 09:29:36 AM »
I hope they dont change over.
But then again most of these decisions are handeled by the bean counters and for them L1 (Lowest quote) rules.

The Mico or Bosch Plugs are hard to beat.
Singh Ji.
I will take my plugs out and take some pictures for you.
They are like 1$ a plug. Maybe Ill send you a few.

The C5 has two plugs. So I fail to see how a plug could prevent you from starting up.
Ive tried runing the bike on a single plug and it runs fine. Even with the other terminal shorted.

In fact you cant tell the diff. Between single plug running and both plugs running.
Ive not been able to notice any change in performance either. (Checked with a Road Dyno).
The HT coil as used on the C5 is just like the coil as used on the Banshee / RZ / LC.
One coil two leads. Both sparks happen at the same time.

There is an issue of Polarity with these types of coils. i.e. one plug will allways see less juice than the other.
In the old days to prevent the one side seeing less juice from fouling your plugs.
A guy on macdizzy came up with the idea that you swap the leads every now and then.
But I dont think you need to do this on the bullet.


t120rbullet

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Re: Winter Battery Blues
« Reply #26 on: January 11, 2010, 11:50:14 AM »
In your opinion NGK BPR 6 ES is the way to go.  When you got your G5, did you notice what spark plug was in it ?  Was your bike also recalled and if so did the dealer put in a different spark plug after repairs ? Do you have a picture and dimensions of original plug ? Are you running the BPR 6 ES now and how is it ?

I've got a NGK BPR 6 EIX in mine now. When I took it out to Mo. I ran a NGK BPR 8 EIX in it.  I've had good luck with the EIX series of plugs in the past.
Mine came with the Bosch WR 7 DDC 4 in it. I'd still be running it if I didn't drop it on the garage floor. I haven't been able to source that plug here in the US so far.
CJ
 
1999 Enfield 500 Black Deluxe "Silver"
2012 Concours 14 (no name yet)
2013 Royal Star Venture S  "Jelly Roll"

t120rbullet

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Re: Winter Battery Blues
« Reply #27 on: January 11, 2010, 12:14:39 PM »

The C5 has two plugs. So I fail to see how a plug could prevent you from starting up.
Ive tried runing the bike on a single plug and it runs fine. Even with the other terminal shorted.

The HT coil as used on the C5 is just like the coil as used on the Banshee / RZ / LC.
One coil two leads. Both sparks happen at the same time.


The US C5-G5 have only 1 sparkplug and a single lead coil.
CJ
1999 Enfield 500 Black Deluxe "Silver"
2012 Concours 14 (no name yet)
2013 Royal Star Venture S  "Jelly Roll"

chinoy

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Re: Winter Battery Blues
« Reply #28 on: January 11, 2010, 03:08:43 PM »
wow you lucky guys. Im all envious now.
Learn something new here every day.

So is this a central plug or is it off to one side.
And I take it the second plug hole is blocked off.
I should have a compatiblity sheet which lists all plugs with equvilents from other companies I will try and dig it up and post it.

t120rbullet

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Re: Winter Battery Blues
« Reply #29 on: January 11, 2010, 04:49:17 PM »
wow you lucky guys. Im all envious now.
Learn something new here every day.

So is this a central plug or is it off to one side.
And I take it the second plug hole is blocked off.
I should have a compatiblity sheet which lists all plugs with equvilents from other companies I will try and dig it up and post it.


The plug is off to the left side. The boss on the right side was never drilled for a plug.
From what I was told by one of the factory engineers the dual plugs on the home market bikes are there to help meet emission standards without the use of a cat converter. Maybe that's why you don't have the O2 sensor too.
I wish that would work for the US models too then we wouldn't need the gonzo purple mufflers we have now.

I'd appreciate a cross reference for that Bosch plug as it is like it doesn't exist over here.
CJ
1999 Enfield 500 Black Deluxe "Silver"
2012 Concours 14 (no name yet)
2013 Royal Star Venture S  "Jelly Roll"