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Author Topic: EGR and Injector Question.  (Read 1483 times)

chinoy

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EGR and Injector Question.
« on: January 28, 2010, 02:44:51 PM »
Whats the verdict from the Experts on the EGR keep it or dump it.

Is the injector on the C5 low  or high impendence.

ace.cafe

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Re: EGR and Injector Question.
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2010, 02:51:25 PM »
An EGR(exhaust gas recirculator) can do no good for engine performance.
Ever.
The engine never wants the mixture to be diluted with exhaust gases.
All that does is take up space in the cylinder that could have been filled with new mixture to burn for power.

Always bad for peformance.
The only thing it's good for is pleasing the emissions sniffer probe.

That said, you need to be sure that nothing else is going to get screwed-up by taking it off.

I have no clue what the injector impedance is on the C5.
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chinoy

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Re: EGR and Injector Question.
« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2010, 03:37:41 PM »
Thanks ace
I blocked off the EGR on day 1.
Just inserted a stud into the pipe.
Was tempted to dump the complete system.
But as the bike is brand new under warranty and has so many issues I didnt want to risk taking it off.  Just in case RE says you ruined your warranty by touching the EGR valve.

The reason I asked was most EGR based engines I work with do not have a Pump.
The UCE has a pump which is driven by Intake Pulses.

So what are they doing here. The obvious answer is they are pumping fresh air into the exhaust.

On the cars its the other way arround. Hot exhaust enters the manifold. Because the manifold is in Vacum. Right ? (Proof is manifolds with the EGR system will be coverend in black soot).

but on the bullet they are not hooking up the EGR to the Manifold. Instead its hooked up to a pump that gets fresh air from the air box. So the air flow direction is in fact reversed.

Could the lack of this fresh cold air from the air box entering the Exhaust be causing the dis-coloration I see on the bend pipe.

Here is another crazy thing they did on the C5s.
They route the EGR hose and the Crank case hose. Slap band in the center of the intake scoop blocking off over 30% of the intake area.
You really have to wonder what the boys are smoking when they sit down and design stuff like this.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2010, 11:02:15 AM by chinoy »

ScooterBob

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Re: EGR and Injector Question.
« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2010, 03:11:58 PM »
An EGR(exhaust gas recirculator) can do no good for engine performance.
Ever.
The engine never wants the mixture to be diluted with exhaust gases.
All that does is take up space in the cylinder that could have been filled with new mixture to burn for power.

Always bad for peformance.
The only thing it's good for is pleasing the emissions sniffer probe.

That said, you need to be sure that nothing else is going to get screwed-up by taking it off.

I have no clue what the injector impedance is on the C5.

Actually, ACE, as you should know from your auto experience, the EGR tends to cool the combustion mixture on an emissions controlled engine to quell the riot of detonation. Removing the EGR without enrichening, remapping or retiming MAY result in a hole in the top of the piston. I'm not saying that there isn't performance to be gained with a totally clean reactible gas mixture - I'm saying that this isn't a 1974 Dodge Monaco .... the cam timing as well as the fuel mapping and ignition mapping of the UCE have carefully considered to utilise the EGR circuit for the IDM bikes. They are clean enough HERE to do without them, since we have the capability of having the O2 sensor. Chinoy - I'll try to get that injector coil resistance back to you soon. Stay tuned!
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chinoy

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Re: EGR and Injector Question.
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2010, 10:10:43 PM »
You guys still haven't answered my question.
Which direction is the air moving in. ?

We are assuming that the air moves from the exhaust into the intake.
This is not the case from what I can see.

From what I can see. Cold fresh air is being injected into the exhaust from the air filter box to fool the snifter.

This is very different from what ace and scooter bob are talking about. i.e. car type EGR where exhaust gas enters the Intake.

Guess I need top open up the pump and see which direction its pumping in.
Now if you where to dis-conect your pump and hook up the EGR pipe to your manifold it would be a very different picture.
Most EGR systems have one way valves placed in them I wonder if the Bull has one too.




chinoy

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Re: EGR and Injector Question.
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2010, 05:23:30 AM »
Thought about it some more.
You cant be pumping cold air from the air box into the exhaust because it would totally fox your O2 sensor readings. It has to be pumping hot exhaust into your air box.

Ice

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Re: EGR and Injector Question.
« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2010, 05:45:43 AM »
EGR systems lower combustion chamber temperatures by introducing exhaust gasses int the combustion chamber in order to reduce the the formation of oxides of nitrogen.
 
 Lower combustion chamber temps result in less expansion force applied to the piston crown and less power output.

 Injection or pulse drawing of air into the exhaust stream is for the purpose of  "burning off" or oxidizing any un burned hydrocarbons ( fuel ).
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ace.cafe

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Re: EGR and Injector Question.
« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2010, 01:50:32 PM »
Actually, ACE, as you should know from your auto experience, the EGR tends to cool the combustion mixture on an emissions controlled engine to quell the riot of detonation. Removing the EGR without enrichening, remapping or retiming MAY result in a hole in the top of the piston. I'm not saying that there isn't performance to be gained with a totally clean reactible gas mixture - I'm saying that this isn't a 1974 Dodge Monaco .... the cam timing as well as the fuel mapping and ignition mapping of the UCE have carefully considered to utilise the EGR circuit for the IDM bikes. They are clean enough HERE to do without them, since we have the capability of having the O2 sensor. Chinoy - I'll try to get that injector coil resistance back to you soon. Stay tuned!

Hi ScooterBob,
I did leave myself an "out" there, because I stated a caveat that he has to make sure that nothing else gets screwed-up when he takes it off.

However, that being said, if we know all the other issues which may be related, we can take steps to deal with those too.



Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head . Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available .  AVL mods. Redditch 700/750 Twin mods. UCE kit soon.

Please visit my new website:
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AcePerformanceBullets/info

Geirskogul

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Re: EGR and Injector Question.
« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2010, 09:00:18 AM »
Engines aren't designed with pure piston + crank + transmission + gas = power, anymore.  If an engine system is designed with an EGR valve in mind from square one, then it will be better, and run as intended, with the valve in place.  If it's added on after the fact to an older design, I would agree with you, but not this time.

For instance, on my car the EGR valve is there to help quicken the warm-up times, give me better fuel economy, decrease heat wear under moderate sustained loads, and just in general increase engine longevity by decreasing detonation and letting the engine respond to fuel/air/moisture conditions, which save cylinder and ring wear that would occur if those problems were attempted to be helped with other means.  It also lets my engine give pure power when pure power is due and needed, without compromising daily driving performance and stability.  All three valves on my EGR are closed at WOT and at other times when I need pure power.  It's not the simple dumb system it was, purely to meet emissions.  Now it should be thought of as more of another intake system that cannot be disposed of willy-nilly.
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chinoy

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Re: EGR and Injector Question.
« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2010, 06:27:52 AM »
You have a point there on the UCE blocking off the EGR results in the bike taking longer to warm up and get a stable Idle.

One of the cars Ive worked on extencivelly is the Suzuki Baleno its a 1.6 Ltr inline four.

First modells came from the factory without an EGR. Latter modells came with the EGR.
I have worked on both.

What I noticed was the engine with the EGR has carbon everywhere. The complete manifold was coated in a thick black tar like substance.
The combustion chamber was choked with carbon.

The one without the EGR had a clean inlet manifold. And much less carbon in the head.
I dumped the EGR on all builds.

End of the day on the RE bikes.
Block off your EGR but notice how it effects the way the bike starts / warms up and runs.
On the UCE I would think twice about blocking it because the ECU maps are designed taking it into consideration.

Ice

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Re: EGR and Injector Question.
« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2010, 04:47:57 AM »
Hi Br. Chinoy,
 It took me a while to re find this http://www.megasquirt.info/ It may be of some technical or educational value.
I can break it better,,,,at night, in the rain, on the trail,, 20 miles from nowhere.

REA #136

"TIMEX", the '06 Iron Barrel Military that takes me everywhere I want to go... and some places I shouldn't.

chinoy

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Re: EGR and Injector Question.
« Reply #11 on: February 27, 2010, 06:51:51 AM »
thanks man. Ive been involved with Ms from the early days.
Have built quite a few boxes.

One of these days Im going to figure out the Bullet EgR system right now its a moot point as we aren't even using the stock air box. You do pay a price with crappy cold starts, bad idle and longer warmup. but hey anthing for that last .0001% of power.