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Author Topic: Question on Maximum RPM's  (Read 2116 times)

qgolden

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Question on Maximum RPM's
« on: July 28, 2010, 02:01:49 AM »
Back in the day,  (love starting a paragraph with that phrase) lots of smaller bikes did not have Tachs on 'em.  some of 'em had hash markes on the speedo which would indicate maximum speed in each gear.  One hash mark around 10 MPH for first, two around 20 or so for second etc.  RE does not do that nor do we have a tach.  I checked the manual but it does not give any refrence to maximum speed in each gear.  Has anyone ever seen any documentation from the factory regarding this?

Second question has anyone ever seen a peak HP/Torque curve chart for these engines?

-Q
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Ice

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Re: Question on Maximum RPM's
« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2010, 03:13:58 AM »
 
Fairly certain the information you seek is in the threads
Search them especially Ace Cafe's posts.

For certain there is a dyno chart or two in the threads,here's one

 http://www.enfieldmotorcycles.com/forum/index.php/topic,3242.msg41775.html#msg41775


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singhg5

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Re: Question on Maximum RPM's
« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2010, 04:12:03 AM »
Back in the day,  (love starting a paragraph with that phrase) lots of smaller bikes did not have Tachs on 'em.  some of 'em had hash markes on the speedo which would indicate maximum speed in each gear.  One hash mark around 10 MPH for first, two around 20 or so for second etc.  RE does not do that nor do we have a tach.  I checked the manual but it does not give any refrence to maximum speed in each gear.  Has anyone ever seen any documentation from the factory regarding this?

Second question has anyone ever seen a peak HP/Torque curve chart for these engines?

-Q
Q:

Your second question answer - A torque and HP curve for EFI was published on this Forum several months ago.  You can do some searches to find it.  If I see it again, I will add the link.

Your First question -  Maximum speed in each gear.  Here is what I follow on my G5 now a days.

UPSHIFT  @   15 mph on the speedometer to 2nd Gear  
               @   25 mph on the speedometer to 3rd Gear
               @   35 mph on the speedometer to 4th Gear
                @  45 mph on the speedometer to 5th Gear.

You can stretch a bit more at higher gears.  The ECU is programmed to cut off fuel supply if the bike reaches a MAXIMUM RPM of 5500.  


           -------------------------------------------------------------------
 Need to add a correction factor for my Speedometer because it is off.  

    The true speed is 13 mph - when speedo reads 15 mph
                              22 mph - when speedo reads 25 mph
                              31 mph - when speedo reads 35 mph
                              40 mph - when speedo reads 45 mph
« Last Edit: July 29, 2010, 12:22:25 PM by singhg5 »
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REpozer

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Re: Question on Maximum RPM's
« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2010, 04:14:49 AM »
In your Hand Book, look up " Run-In".  What does it say?
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Ducati Scotty

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Re: Question on Maximum RPM's
« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2010, 02:21:24 PM »
The ECU is programmed to cut off fuel supply if the bike reaches a MAXIMUM RPM of 5500. 

Just curious, anyone hit the rev limiter yet?  What's it like?  On my Kawasaki it was a nice gentle loss of power.  On the Ducati it was abrupt and would throw the bike a little if you were in a corner.  Most disconcerting.

Scott

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Re: Question on Maximum RPM's
« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2010, 09:23:27 PM »
According Geardata 2.11 here the MaxRevs in km/h for the G5:

17 sprockets (original)
1. 47
2. 71
3. 89
4. 112
5. 136

18 sprockets (optinal from c5)
1. 49
2. 75
3. 95
4. 119
5. 144

Since mine ran only 1000 km no contact to the limiter (yet  ;D)
The problem I am facing now is: how fast am I? The Speedo allows only rough estimates.


« Last Edit: July 28, 2010, 09:36:39 PM by Maturin »
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Re: Question on Maximum RPM's
« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2010, 10:15:01 PM »
I'm pretty sure they consider 5200 rpm to be maximum rpm on the UCE.
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Re: Question on Maximum RPM's
« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2010, 10:51:07 PM »
My manual says the maximum performance is at 5250 rpm, so I think the red zone starts at 5500.
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singhg5

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Re: Question on Maximum RPM's
« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2010, 10:56:59 PM »
I'm pretty sure they consider 5200 rpm to be maximum rpm on the UCE.

My manual says the maximum performance is at 5250 rpm, so I think the red zone starts at 5500.

Ace:

As Maturin has just posted, while I was typing this reply, these RPM values are listed in the RE factory issued manuals.  Here are the pictures -

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singhg5

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Re: Question on Maximum RPM's
« Reply #9 on: July 28, 2010, 11:08:45 PM »
According Geardata 2.11 here the MaxRevs in km/h for the G5:

17 sprockets (original)
1. 47
2. 71
3. 89
4. 112
5. 136

18 sprockets (optinal from c5)
1. 49
2. 75
3. 95
4. 119
5. 144

Since mine ran only 1000 km no contact to the limiter (yet  ;D)
The problem I am facing now is: how fast am I? The Speedo allows only rough estimates.

Maturin:

You have posted interesting numbers.  I am just converting your figures to mph for US speedometers, which are in mph.  

What is Geardata 2.11 ?

FOR G5

1 Gear -  47 kph   = 29 mph
2 Gear -  71 kph   = 44 mph
3 Gear -  89 kph   = 56 mph
4 Gear - 112 kph  = 70 mph
5 Gear - 136 kph  = 83 mph

Did you calculate these figures from the gear ratio, which are listed as 3.063, 2.013, 1.522, 1.212 and 1 ?  Using these gear ratios, I came up with values close to what you have.  These are as follows -

1 Gear = 27 mph
2 Gear = 41 mph
3 Gear = 54 mph
4 Gear = 68 mph
5 Gear = 83 mph
« Last Edit: July 28, 2010, 11:19:42 PM by singhg5 »
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qgolden

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Re: Question on Maximum RPM's
« Reply #10 on: July 28, 2010, 11:17:06 PM »
Singhg5
I was just about to post the same question,  THX  I apreciate the upshift data, but I am looking for the maximum RPM in each gear.  I do not really have an ear for this single and with no tach I don't know where I am in the power curve.

ICE
I did find dyna charts,  THX,
http://www.enfieldmotorcycles.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6995.0;attach=6418;image
REPozer,
As was posted the manual does not answer my question, it just gives the maximum but know way to tell when you hit it!

THX all for the replies. 

Are the Gear Ratio's the same for the G5 and C5?  I can do some math and get my answers if they are.



Any other Enfields in New England?

qgolden

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Re: Question on Maximum RPM's
« Reply #11 on: July 28, 2010, 11:20:11 PM »
OH and here is the conversion KPH to MPH for the C5 (using data from Maturin)

Gear     KPH   MPH
1st        49  =  30
2nd       75  =  46
3rd        95  =  59
4th        119 = 74
5th        144 = 89
Any other Enfields in New England?

singhg5

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Re: Question on Maximum RPM's
« Reply #12 on: July 28, 2010, 11:27:34 PM »
Singhg5
I was just about to post the same question,  THX  I apreciate the upshift data, but I am looking for the maximum RPM in each gear.  I do not really have an ear for this single and with no tach I don't know where I am in the power curve.

ICE
I did find dyna charts,  THX,
http://www.enfieldmotorcycles.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6995.0;attach=6418;image
REPozer,
As was posted the manual does not answer my question, it just gives the maximum but know way to tell when you hit it!

THX all for the replies. 

Are the Gear Ratio's the same for the G5 and C5?  I can do some math and get my answers if they are.

Quinn:

We are playing 'musical chair' !  We are both calculating and posting at the same time  ;D

First, I am glad you found the correct graph of power vs. rpm for EFI.

Second, the OVERALL gear ratio is the same for G5 and C5.  The secondary ratio is 2.235:1 for G5 and 2.11:1 for C5. 

I have modified my previous post with some more calculations which were not there when it was first posted !!
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REpozer

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Re: Question on Maximum RPM's
« Reply #13 on: July 28, 2010, 11:44:41 PM »

REPozer,
As was posted the manual does not answer my question, it just gives the maximum but know way to tell when you hit it!
Seems easy enough then. Running the throttle at" Rabbit" would be bad. Closer to "turtle" would be better. Without exceeding the "Hand Book" speed, or "loading" ,"lugging' or "pinging" the engine.
Those speeds probably assume a level road with no head wind or elevation.
Still have to pay attention to conditions.
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qgolden

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Re: Question on Maximum RPM's
« Reply #14 on: July 29, 2010, 02:29:47 AM »
singhg5
By "secondary" I presume you are referring to the final drive ratio based on the output spocket to the rear wheel sprocket?

The Ratios of  the Tranny Gears are the same for each, correct?

-Quinn
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qgolden

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Re: Question on Maximum RPM's
« Reply #15 on: July 29, 2010, 03:11:43 AM »
OK, did some more research and worked that out for myself.

REPozer, while I can appreciate and even envy folks like yourself who can get by with that logic (and it is perfectly logical) I am way to anal retentive to get by with that.  I know it makes sense and the machine was obviously designed to be operated that way.  Not having a tach really bugs me.

Soooo, with that in mind....

Understanding that Red-line is 5500.
It stops producing HP at 5250 so there is no point in revving beyond that.
I want a margin of safety so I would not want to exceed 5000 RPM, the HP produced between 5000 and 5250 is negligible anyway.

If I wanted to not exceed 5000 RPM's then I would shift at the following.

First   Second   Third   Fourth   Fifth
26mph           45mph          62mpg          75 mph         81mph

That is where my hash marks go.

Any other Enfields in New England?

REpozer

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Re: Question on Maximum RPM's
« Reply #16 on: July 29, 2010, 03:38:27 AM »
Golden,
Alright. I don't need no stinking tach. ;)

   Those shift points would be more for living on the edge, or pushing the the envelope.
Nice to know, but that's not where you want to live.

 Unless you just stole it and running from the police.
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qgolden

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Re: Question on Maximum RPM's
« Reply #17 on: July 29, 2010, 01:30:47 PM »
Yah I agree, but that is where the math comes out.  Providin' I did my cypherin' right.

Anyone please feel free to review and correct me if I am wrong.

Actually if someone could confirm my numbers are right would be cool....

Any other Enfields in New England?

Maturin

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Re: Question on Maximum RPM's
« Reply #18 on: July 29, 2010, 07:49:45 PM »
I clearly overestimated geardata, its a little gear calculator (sic!) but there is not even an english version. I´m sure thre are similar english programs somewhere in the net.
If your maximum is 5000 rpm your marks should be at:
1. 26 mph
2. 40
3. 53
4. 66
5. 80
I calculated tese figures with the original specifications stated in the manual. I used the data of the 100/90 rear tire instead of the 3.50 that is mounted on my bike but there is barely a difference.
For me its obvious now that I can be much less carefull than I thought! This little unit can take much more than you think, even if it sounds a bit strained sometimes  ;D
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qgolden

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Re: Question on Maximum RPM's
« Reply #19 on: July 30, 2010, 02:00:57 AM »
Maturin,
I wonder why yours and my numbers for first gear and 5th gear are the same, but the middle gears are different?

Did you use these ratios or is my data off?

Gear ratio of each gear in the tranny
1st 3.063:1
2nd 2.013:1
3rd 1.522:1
4th 1.212:1
5th 1.00:1
Any other Enfields in New England?

Maturin

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Re: Question on Maximum RPM's
« Reply #20 on: July 30, 2010, 06:48:58 AM »
Hmm.... :P....I checked these figures a couple of times but they should be correct. Your steps between the 4/5 gear aswell as 3/4 gear are looking a bit odd, maybe there is a mistake. If should be wrong I owe you a beer  :D
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qgolden

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Re: Question on Maximum RPM's
« Reply #21 on: July 30, 2010, 01:26:20 PM »
OK,
Well I would be tempted to just go with your numbers 'cause they are more conservative than mine. But I pressed on.  I sell power transmission for a living, gearboxes, speed reducers etc. So I used the data available to me.  But I been wrong before.  I went online to search for Gear Calculators.  I found several that are not worth a darn, but this one looked pretty good. The creator allows you to enter data for Bikes that he did not list. You can also change the data to do "what ifs".

The entire site seems to be down except for this one page, so I don't know how long it will last.  But I entered the data for the C5 as I know it.  If you click the drop down menu at the top left Royal Enfield is the last bike on the list.

Numbers calculated at this website are spot on closer to yours than mine.

http://woodsware.aciwebs.com/gears/gears.asp

So I guess my question has been answered and I know where the tick marks go... :)

Any other Enfields in New England?

t120rbullet

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Re: Question on Maximum RPM's
« Reply #22 on: July 30, 2010, 01:49:54 PM »
Boy oh boy, those Iron bikes sure were simpler.
All you had to do to them is ride em.
If your hands tingled and your fillings fell out you were over revving it.
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qgolden

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Re: Question on Maximum RPM's
« Reply #23 on: July 30, 2010, 02:13:26 PM »
Well, that is what you get when you let a few Anal Retentive Over Analyzing Type A Personalities into the room!   :)  Here is the data for peak Torque and Peak HP.

If you choose 5000 RPM's as your personal Redline as I have, then here is your maximum speed in each gear.  I included Torque for those who like to shift at peak torque. Note that the Maximum Power is higher than Redline in the chart because maximum Power is up at 5250 RPM and I am holding at 5000.  Maximunm Torque is calculated at 4000 RPM.

                       Speed (MPH) at:
Gear        Redline          Torque      Power
1st             26.7            21.3         28
2nd            40.6            32.5         42.6
3rd             53.7            42.9         56.4
4th             67.4            53.9         70.8
5th             81.7            65.4         85.8
Any other Enfields in New England?

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Re: Question on Maximum RPM's
« Reply #24 on: July 30, 2010, 04:14:47 PM »
Sounds like the BMW crowd is moving into the neighborhood.
Run what ya brung

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Re: Question on Maximum RPM's
« Reply #25 on: July 30, 2010, 04:21:07 PM »
Sounds like the BMW crowd is moving into the neighborhood.
Hmm, they seem kinda silly.
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r80rt

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Re: Question on Maximum RPM's
« Reply #26 on: July 30, 2010, 04:27:09 PM »
My bike usually tells me when to shift, I just play it by ear and it works great.
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Re: Question on Maximum RPM's
« Reply #27 on: July 30, 2010, 04:44:27 PM »
Hmm, they seem kinda silly.

Yeah, don't overthink it.

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Re: Question on Maximum RPM's
« Reply #28 on: July 30, 2010, 04:53:52 PM »
".....My bike usually tells me when to shift, I just play it by ear and it works great....."

Quite!  It aint rocket science is it..... ::)
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Re: Question on Maximum RPM's
« Reply #29 on: July 30, 2010, 07:39:18 PM »
Did I mention that there is a program that calculates the chain length in case of sprocket change? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Re: Question on Maximum RPM's
« Reply #30 on: July 30, 2010, 08:32:29 PM »
Does it take into account ambient temperature and sprocket wear? ;D
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Re: Question on Maximum RPM's
« Reply #31 on: July 30, 2010, 09:05:54 PM »
Ambient temperature is important, but don't forget the moon phase and star position.
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Re: Question on Maximum RPM's
« Reply #32 on: July 31, 2010, 04:12:36 AM »
And you need your horoscope and your bikes.  Don't be foolish, the bikes birthday is the day it rolled off the line and NOT the day you bought it.  I can't tell you how many times I've had people get that wrong!

Scott

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Re: Question on Maximum RPM's
« Reply #33 on: July 31, 2010, 10:37:23 AM »
the bikes birthday is the day it rolled off the line and NOT the day you bought it.  I can't tell you how many times I've had people get that wrong

Good 'un,    heh heh heh..
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r80rt

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Re: Question on Maximum RPM's
« Reply #34 on: July 31, 2010, 12:26:04 PM »
And you need your horoscope and your bikes.  Don't be foolish, the bikes birthday is the day it rolled off the line and NOT the day you bought it.  I can't tell you how many times I've had people get that wrong!

Scott
Oh no, I gave the Stygian Witches the wrong date! Man are they gonna be mad at me.
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Re: Question on Maximum RPM's
« Reply #35 on: August 01, 2010, 12:10:38 AM »
I went online to search for Gear Calculators.  I found several that are not worth a darn, but this one looked pretty good. The creator allows you to enter data for Bikes that he did not list. You can also change the data to do "what ifs".

The entire site seems to be down except for this one page, so I don't know how long it will last.  But I entered the data for the C5 as I know it.  If you click the drop down menu at the top left Royal Enfield is the last bike on the list.

Numbers calculated at this website are spot on closer to yours than mine.

http://woodsware.aciwebs.com/gears/gears.asp

So I guess my question has been answered and I know where the tick marks go... :)
I went to this site that you have posted in the link.  Saw the data you had entered for C5 and it also showed the table of RPMs and speed etc.  Was interesting. 

Sounds like the BMW crowd is moving into the neighborhood.

Ernie:  RE is metamorphosing into A B  M   W   ;D   Keep the calculator handy.
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Re: Question on Maximum RPM's
« Reply #36 on: August 01, 2010, 08:13:02 AM »
".....I went to this site that you have posted in the link.  Saw the data you had entered for C5 and it also showed the table of RPMs and speed etc.  Was interesting...."

Agreed. And reassuring to discover that I habitually ride well within the most efficient torque range, even when I think I've been pushing it a bit..! One possible exception was when for no reason other than brain fade-out I changed down when I meant to change up!   :o
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qgolden

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Re: Question on Maximum RPM's
« Reply #37 on: August 01, 2010, 02:06:43 PM »
".....I went to this site that you have posted in the link.  Saw the data you had entered for C5 and it also showed the table of RPMs and speed etc.  Was interesting...."

Agreed. And reassuring to discover that I habitually ride well within the most efficient torque range, even when I think I've been pushing it a bit..! One possible exception was when for no reason other than brain fade-out I changed down when I meant to change up!   :o

That my new friends was exactly the reason that I wanted to go through the excercise.  I want to ride in the most efficient power range.  Particulary when I have the Sidecar on. 
Any other Enfields in New England?