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Author Topic: Long Commutes?  (Read 1428 times)

qgolden

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Re: Long Commutes?
« Reply #15 on: July 30, 2010, 08:39:40 PM »
Scott Oilers can mke a mess if you don't set them right.  From all my reading, DID brand chains are about the best in the industry because they are made to the tightest tolerances. 

The best I have seen is made by Diamond.  Lots of chopper houses use it including some infamous ones built on the TV.  The pins are made of a powdered metal that is impregnated with lube.  The lube is released though heat and wear so you get supplemental lubricant in addition to regular maintenance.

The reason the Scott system works so well it that it is constantly flushing out the debris.
Any other Enfields in New England?

JesterNT

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Re: Long Commutes?
« Reply #16 on: July 30, 2010, 08:45:33 PM »
I have been using my C5 as a daily driver for the last two weeks.  I do 90 miles round trip with very little stop and go.  I average 65 -70 mph.  The vibration factor has proven apparent.  By the end of my 2nd week I have lost 4 fender screws, the bottom bolt that holds on the tail light assembly, and the fork lock fell off!  I replaced the fender screws with some nice chrome ones with nylon locking nuts.  When replacing the taillight bolt I added a lock washer.  My dealer ordered a new fork lock, I plan to use locktite generously.  If you plan to ride every day I think you’ll find that you need to tighten “everything” quite frequently, or add locking nuts wherever possible.  
So far the chain adjustment has held up nicely.  I use a full synthetic “MOTOREX Chain Lube 622 Strong Street Spray (#36968)”.  It sticks well and lasts long.
Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati

clubman

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Re: Long Commutes?
« Reply #17 on: July 30, 2010, 09:59:54 PM »
Chains don't stretch.  

Ok, not don't pull out the shotgun yet, hear me out.

"Chain Stretch" is a misnomer often used to describe the condition where the chain gets longer.  What is really happening is that when the chain is made it is a series of links. pins, and sometimes rollers.  There has to be a certain amount of play between the link plates and the pins to allow them to flex. For the sake of discussion lets say a new chain out of the box has a half a thousandths clearance.  (Read that .0005.) As the chain is first used the initial wear within the pin and link area is significant (like breaking in a motor) so after a few hours of operation the clearance is now a thousandths. (.001) So you take that newly created clearance and add it up times the number of links (pitches) in the chain and you have a new length.  So if you have 110 links and you create another thou per link you have added 110 x .001 =.110. Just under an eighth of an inch to the chain length.  That is why you always re-check your chain and might make an adjustment within a relevantly few miles of a new install.

Now give me another minute...An eighth of an inch don't sound like much,

But now lets talk about chain lube.  I know there are all kinds of new lubes on the market, dry lubes an such that are great at keeping your bike cleaner.  However experience tells me that the primary job of a chain lubricant is to make parts slippery, right.  Nope, it has an equally important function of flushing out the debris and dirt that is picked up as the chain goes 'round and does its work.  IMHO, if there is not any oil leaving the sprockets and flying over the rear rim and the engine cases then there is no way it is flushing out the debris.   Sooo, if the debris is staying inside the chain it is irritating the space betwixt the pin and link plate.  Unlike an Oyster that creates a gem in an irritated space, that dirt will works its way around and before long that little .001 space now gets larger and larger.  So now it us up to .002.  110 links x .002 = .220. Darn near a quarter inch.  Little more dirt, little more time and you have a chain that is beyond it useful pitch because the distance between the pins has increased.  Now that the chain is out of spec. it starts to eat at the sprockets.  The radius of the inside of the sprocket pitch is machined to precisely fit the bushing or roller that is covering the chain pin. So as the distance 'tween pins increased it wears on the side of the sprocket.

Wax  based and grease based chain lubes are excellent in an environment where dirt  and temperature are not an issue. Like running a conveyor in an air conditioned factory.  The work is steady, the temperature is stable and the chain stays clean.

Our chains are in the worst environment they can be in, dirt, heat, different loads at different times and the constant pull of over and under tension based on suspension travel.  Even the load of one passenger vs two, or adding a sidecar.

Another enemy of the chain is heat. The running temperature of a chain ideally should not exceed 160 degrees F Above that, chain lubricant starts to thin, and the chances of it seeping out past the O-rings increase; eventually the film strength drops, don't forget the huge amount of centrifugal force as that chain whips around the end of the sprockets.

Even the cheapest chain without O-rings will last a surprising amount of time with proper care, meticulous adjustment and oiling at 350-mile intervals.

The average 110 link chain contains over 400 precisely machined components,  well OK, some of the are stamped, but the stamping dies are incredibly precise and the tolerance of the stampings is incredibly high.

So if you want good chain life, use a good lube, use it generously and often. It costs less than chains.   And tension it correctly.  Chain too tight is worse than a chain too loose, especially in the first 350 miles.


Good post, thanks.  :) I do have a different view on dry lubes though. (Yes, I use one.) As much as lube that flings off will throw off muck with it wet lube will attract muck in the first place. Dry lube doesn't do this. I'm not saying it works much better - I need to adjust the chain approx every 750 miles, (lube every 300-500), and I would expect that whatever lube I used. I just like dry cos it keeps the wheel clean. I completely agree that regular lubing and cleaning is the key to long chain life. The excellent chain enclosures to be found on MZs and Jawa's are the best solution and it is a scandal imo that other manufacturers ignore this.

WillW

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Re: Long Commutes?
« Reply #18 on: July 31, 2010, 12:24:49 AM »
Thanks for all this input - I'd kind of taken the chain for granted. I adjust it and lube it, only cleaned it once, a lot of miles ago, and I guess it's time to do it again. I bought a grunge brush the first time, which just seemed to make a grotty job more crappy and difficult than it needs to be. I'd used chainsaw oil as an emergency measure before a long trip and the bloody stuff was everywhere. The dry lube was my plan to keep the wheel etc cleaner, but I guess it makes me neglectful of chain cleaning duty.
I seem to be working my way round those snail cam notches pretty rapidly. It's an aspect of motorcycling I'd klind of forgotten about. That said, it's good to have something to tinker with on these damnably reliable machines... ;)
So is there an O ring chain available for these bikes? Do they make for happier transmission?
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Ducati Scotty

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Re: Long Commutes?
« Reply #19 on: July 31, 2010, 04:26:41 AM »
Thanks Scott.
So is that a conventional chain on the UCE bikes? 
Pardon my ignorance but I hadn't got to Chains yet....... ;)

Yup, just all metal.  The alternatives are O-ring and X-ring.  These have little seals on every little pin that keep the grease in and the gunk out.  With poor chain maintenance habits these tend to last much longer.  Even with good habits, they tend to last a little longer.  They are wider though to fit the seals and I think I rad somewhere on this forum that there's not enough room for one on and RE :(

Anyway, here's some reading:
http://www.quality-cycle.com/truth_about_motorcycle_chains.htm

Best comprehensive info on chains I've found.  Forgive me if it repeats a lot of what's in the previous post, I didn't read the whole thing.

Scott

Ice

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Re: Long Commutes?
« Reply #20 on: July 31, 2010, 05:33:19 AM »
  Variations in the thickness of the castings of our transmissions and inner primary chain cases provide at least a chance that an O ring or Xring chain might fit on a lucky few bikes.

 The only way to know for sure if one will fit or not is to try one of each brand.
They differ in widths a bit.

 In street use ( Suzuki GS 100E's) My best friend and myself averaged about 20,000 miles before the O rings gave out.
 We squeezed another 10,000 miles out of them by cleaning and maintaining them like regular chain.

 
I can break it better,,,,at night, in the rain, on the trail,, 20 miles from nowhere.

REA #136

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gashousegorilla

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Re: Long Commutes?
« Reply #21 on: July 31, 2010, 06:53:09 AM »
Yup, just all metal.  The alternatives are O-ring and X-ring.  These have little seals on every little pin that keep the grease in and the gunk out.  With poor chain maintenance habits these tend to last much longer.  Even with good habits, they tend to last a little longer.  They are wider though to fit the seals and I think I rad somewhere on this forum that there's not enough room for one on and RE :(

Anyway, here's some reading:
http://www.quality-cycle.com/truth_about_motorcycle_chains.htm

Best comprehensive info on chains I've found.  Forgive me if it repeats a lot of what's in the previous post, I didn't read the whole thing.

Scott
Check that new bike scotty, there's an O ring chain on my 09 C-5. Did they go conventional this year?
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WillW

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Re: Long Commutes?
« Reply #22 on: July 31, 2010, 09:10:37 AM »
Thanks for the, uh, chain link Scott..... ;)
Chain cleaning and lubing is this weekend's job. I'm going to try a different chain lube - something "oilier" than the Wurth, probably Silkolene. I'm not going to change the chain until I have to, but there's certainly room for improvement in my chain care habits.....
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qgolden

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Re: Long Commutes?
« Reply #23 on: July 31, 2010, 10:02:15 AM »
That is a good article Scott, thanks for the link.

Another interestng (at least to me) tidbit the high performance racing bikes of the late seventies created about 120 HP and used a 530-size chain that wighed about 2.5 lb. per yard. Todays Race Bkes produce close to 200 HP but run a 520-size chain that weighs only 2.3 lb. per yard. Technology has decreased the tolerences and that has increased the tensile strengh of the chains while decreasing the amount of energy it takes to turn the chain. That 8 percent in chain weight is a big bang for the buck in HP to the rear wheel.

Any other Enfields in New England?

Ice

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Re: Long Commutes?
« Reply #24 on: July 31, 2010, 10:45:13 AM »
 Good info Br.'s Ducati Scotty and ggolden.

Beers to you both  ;)
I can break it better,,,,at night, in the rain, on the trail,, 20 miles from nowhere.

REA #136

"TIMEX", the '06 Iron Barrel Military that takes me everywhere I want to go... and some places I shouldn't.

WillW

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Re: Long Commutes?
« Reply #25 on: July 31, 2010, 03:23:03 PM »
Well I spent an hour cleaning the gunk out of the chain - oh dear I had been neglectful   :(
Sprayed on some Silkolene from every angle I could, and took it out for an hour's thundering about. A much happier bike and a chastened and wiser rider. And the chain looks a lot healthier than it did before.
Didn't realise the Wurth dry lube was more suited to O link chains.
Another step forward in my motorbiking education. Thanks chaps.   ;)
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Ducati Scotty

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Re: Long Commutes?
« Reply #26 on: July 31, 2010, 08:32:30 PM »
Didn't realise the Wurth dry lube was more suited to O link chains.

Not sure on that, that's just my opinion.  

The first bad habit is chain neglect.  The second bad habit is over lubing.  You generally need less than you think.  The excess tends to just fling off and make a mess.  Go light.

Scott

WillW

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Re: Long Commutes?
« Reply #27 on: July 31, 2010, 08:37:57 PM »
I read it somewhere else too Scott. But mostly the chain just looked bone dry and caked with crap all the time. I'm just now back from a sixty mile ride, and the bike is way happier with a clean and oiled chain. The chain looks way healthier too. But yep, I overdid it. It's bloody everywhere.  ::)
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Ducati Scotty

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Re: Long Commutes?
« Reply #28 on: August 01, 2010, 05:11:45 AM »
Keep cutting back until it doesn't end up all over the place. 

Scott

WillW

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Re: Long Commutes?
« Reply #29 on: August 01, 2010, 08:43:46 AM »
Part of it this time was making sure I was washing out any gunk and de-greaser that was left in the chain after I cleaned it. I note the oiling method illustrated in your link and it makes perfect sense of course - pretty much where I figured the oil ought to be put. A lot easier too to direct the Silkolene exactly where you want it with the little tube, instead of just spraying.
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2004 Kawasaki W650
~ the best british bike they never made ~