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Author Topic: Oil volume question  (Read 452 times)

csbdr

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Oil volume question
« on: July 31, 2010, 01:41:42 AM »
Hey all!  Sub and I were having this discussion....our dealer has been recommending 2 L of oil on oil changes, but the manual says 2.75. (?)  Is there that much left in the motor after draining?  or is he off?

Sub

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Re: Oil volume question
« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2010, 04:27:16 AM »
Yes I did a full oil change today (filter etc), and removed all the oil I could from the bike (tilting as recommended in the manual, etc). I put in both quarts of oil and the level filled the oil sight glass. Then I started the bike and the level totally disappeared, likely as it drew oil into the filter and channels within the casing. This was a bit scary, so I shut my bike off after 30 seconds or so.

Also wanted to add that the enfield dealer is recommending this oil..



..which is a 20w50 oil and a brand I've never heard of! I guess 20w instead of 15w is OK with me as I'm a summer-only rider. On the back it says it has synthetic additives, but does that make it a "semi-synthetic" as called for in the manual?

The manual states:
"15W, 50API, SL grade, JASO MA, ESTER - Semi Synthetic Oil or equivalent"

Does the pictured  "SH, CD grade" oil meet Enfield requirements? I found this description: "'SM' is the current top grade, which recently replaced 'SL' and 'SH'. 'SH' will be found on most expensive oils, and almost all the new synthetics. It's basically an upgraded 'SG' oil which has been tested more sternly." .. which sounds good, then I read: http://www.aa1car.com/library/API_ratings.pdf which says SH, CD oil is obsolete!

Oh, and whats with the paraffin base?! :)

ps - make sure when you guys do oil changes to clean the prefilter - check mine out in the picture above at 300 miles. It was caked with what looked like dust, grease, and other odd bits. Yuk!

singhg5

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Re: Oil volume question
« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2010, 04:53:47 AM »
Hey all!  Sub and I were having this discussion....our dealer has been recommending 2 L of oil on oil changes, but the manual says 2.75. (?)  Is there that much left in the motor after draining?  or is he off?

Yes I did a full oil change today (filter etc), and removed all the oil I could from the bike (tilting as recommended in the manual, etc). I put in both quarts of oil and the level filled the oil sight glass. Then I started the bike and the level totally disappeared, likely as it drew oil into the filter and channels within the casing. This was a bit scary, so I shut my bike off after 30 seconds or so.

Also wanted to add that the enfield dealer is recommending this oil..

..which is a 20w50 oil and a brand I've never heard of! I guess 20w instead of 15w is OK with me as I'm a summer-only rider. On the back it says it has synthetic additives, but does that make it a "semi-synthetic" as called for in the manual?

The manual states:
"15W, 50API, SL grade, JASO MA, ESTER - Semi Synthetic Oil or equivalent"

Does the pictured  "SH, CD grade" oil meet Enfield requirements? I found this description: "'SM' is the current top grade, which recently replaced 'SL' and 'SH'. 'SH' will be found on most expensive oils, and almost all the new synthetics. It's basically an upgraded 'SG' oil which has been tested more sternly." .. which sounds good, then I read: http://www.aa1car.com/library/API_ratings.pdf which says SH, CD oil is obsolete!

Oh, and whats with the paraffin base?! :)

ps - make sure when you guys do oil changes to clean the prefilter - check mine out in the picture above at 300 miles. It was caked with what looked like dust, grease, and other odd bits. Yuk!


Here is the link that has all the information needed for oil change for UCE, EFI.  

http://www.enfieldmotorcycles.com/forum/index.php/topic,5148.0.html

Sub:  The oil you showed in the picture - never heard of it.  I would stay away from an obscure unknown brand.  I use Motul, which is very good oil.  If you cannot get that,  there are a lot of other good motorcycle oils - Yamalube, Bel-Ray, Amsoil and others - use semi-synthetic.

Also you said that oil disappeared when you started bike.  Wait a little bit, and oil will come back in the window.  Then you can check the oil level.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2010, 05:05:45 AM by singhg5 »
1970's Jawa /  Yezdi
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singhg5

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Re: Oil volume question
« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2010, 05:00:32 AM »
Measure how much oil came out of the bike - that is a good indicator of how much you need to put back approximately.

Here is another link that is useful.  

http://www.enfieldmotorcycles.com/forum/index.php/topic,6962.0.html

If you wet the filter with fresh oil before fitting into the bike, it takes only 1.8 Litres of oil and it will reach upper limit in the window.  
1970's Jawa /  Yezdi
2006 Honda Nighthawk
2009 Royal Enfield Black G5

WillW

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Re: Oil volume question
« Reply #4 on: July 31, 2010, 09:17:23 AM »
There is some oil which stays in the LH case when you drain the rest from underneath. To reassure yourself that there is indeed some in there you can make a dipstick with a bit of wire and insert it through the filler cap on that side.
2010 Royal Enfield Electra (G5) DL

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~ the best british bike they never made ~

csbdr

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Re: Oil volume question
« Reply #5 on: July 31, 2010, 12:09:54 PM »
OK, so from what you guys have said (and I read in the other threads)oit seems like the 2.75 comes from a dead empty, dry bike, but there's enough left in the case that oil change takes between 1.75 -2 L . Good.  Not going to worry about it then.

csbdr

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Re: Oil volume question
« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2010, 12:12:20 PM »
 ;D :D  Sub got worried which got me thinking (which is always dangerous!)  On the brans of oil, I've been going to the same shop and using that brand in my bike for a year now, and seems fine.  I'm not convinced brand of oil makes too much difference.

qgolden

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Re: Oil volume question
« Reply #7 on: July 31, 2010, 02:10:26 PM »
Different Brands have their own additives that they feel makes them best.  Sometimes the additives are not compatible between brands.  Since some oil stays in the primary during a change, I would be Leary on changing brands mid stream.

There are a lot more brands than refineries but don't let that fool you.  The refinery makes a few particular "flavors"  but the finished product is not finished until it is packaged for sale and transport.  The folks who do the packaging are the folks who put in the additives for each brand.

IMHO Pick a good quality National Brand that is readily available and competitively sold and stick with it. 

-Quinn
Any other Enfields in New England?

REpozer

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Re: Oil volume question
« Reply #8 on: July 31, 2010, 04:45:47 PM »
Different Brands have their own additives that they feel makes them best.  Sometimes the additives are not compatible between brands.  Since some oil stays in the primary during a change, I would be Leary on changing brands mid stream.

There are a lot more brands than refineries but don't let that fool you.  The refinery makes a few particular "flavors"  but the finished product is not finished until it is packaged for sale and transport.  The folks who do the packaging are the folks who put in the additives for each brand.

IMHO Pick a good quality National Brand that is readily available and competitively sold and stick with it. 

-Quinn
  You would be well served reading this thread. Ice has a very good link on oil. To date I have had 4 different "brands" of oil in my AVL, and sleep good at night. Allot of your oil advice is from the 1950"s. Much has changed.

http://www.enfieldmotorcycles.com/forum/index.php/topic,8165.msg90897.html#msg90897

I understand that UCE requires semi  synthetic.
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qgolden

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Re: Oil volume question
« Reply #9 on: July 31, 2010, 08:08:59 PM »
That is a good post and the link is an excellent article,  Thank you for posting it. I read all 10 Chapters (did not take the test).  I do not disagree with anything that Dr. Haas wrote

I did not read anything in Dr. Haas article that disagreed with my notes either. In Chapter 6 he recommends if you buy oil on the road and have to make a change due to availability then you should go to a lesser "weight" but maintain the same brand.  He did not go into detail on proprietary additives.

The intention of my point was to say that each brand of oil contains a specific recipe of additives that are designed to work together. The combination, and ratio's of additives and how they work together is very relevant. 

When you mix different oils you are making your own custom blend of additives that may or may not work well together. Oil manufactures have open license to develop their own recipe based on certain combinations of additives and how they  respond in different environments.

My understanding, flawed or not is based on my experience selling gearboxes.  The company I work for has spent more money than I will ever make testing oils to be sure of compatibility in the environments that we put our equipment in.   These tests are expensive and time consuming.  We have very specific recommendations for each unit installed. We will absolutely void the warranty if the oil recommendation is not followed.  And we can tell.  When customer X calls up and asks if he can use brand Y we may or may not have tested it.  If not we will probably not  test it unless a lot of customers want that brand of oil.  Oil companies will not tell us what their additives are, if they did we would not have to spend so much of our profits to evaluate the oils.   

Do all of my customers run the oil we tell them to?   Nope.  When they do not run the recommended oil it is usually because they have a lot of other equipment that uses a different oil and they want to standardize on one oil in the facility. Do they run for years?  Yup, But they also do lots of PM, change the oil multi-seasonally and have routine oil tests performed (by us or independent labs) to look to see what kind of metals are breaking down in the oil.  If they see 52100 we know a bearing is wearing, aluminum bronze, then bushing or gear shims are wearing etc. I can pull two ounces of oil out of a reducer that is in service, and send it in to the lab, most of the time if I include the serial number of the box, the lab in conjunction with Engineering can tell the customer exactly which component need to be replaced and we can send that component into the customer so on their next shutdown the can go in and do a preemptive repair. 

We absolutely always tell all customers that if they are going to change their oil brand then they must drain the old oil out completely. I think you will find that practice to be an industry standard.

My gearboxes run in far more controlled and engineered environments than my motorcycle does, so IMHO (which ain't worth more than a quarter and that wont even buy you a cup of coffee 'cept at my house and you are welcome to that anytime :) ) the ounce of caution in the industrial world is worth a ton of prevention in my personal world where my pocketbook takes care of catastrophic issues.

The most expensive oil change is far less than the least expensive motor job. Why mix when the product is available everywhere darn cheap per mile traveled you can always run one brand out at oil change and then switch?  There is a lot of science, technology and effort behind recomendations made by a company when they recomend a specific oil, Messing wih it is just out of my comfort zone.

Any other Enfields in New England?

singhg5

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Re: Oil volume question
« Reply #10 on: July 31, 2010, 11:26:13 PM »
In Chapter 6 he recommends if you buy oil on the road and have to make a change due to availability then you should go to a lesser "weight" but maintain the same brand.

The intention of my point was to say that each brand of oil contains a specific recipe of additives that are designed to work together. The combination, and ratio's of additives and how they work together is very relevant.


The most expensive oil change is far less than the least expensive motor job. Why mix when the product is available everywhere darn cheap per mile traveled you can always run one brand out at oil change and then switch?  There is a lot of science, technology and effort behind recomendations made by a company when they recomend a specific oil, Messing wih it is just out of my comfort zone.

Educational write up Quinn !  Thanks.
1970's Jawa /  Yezdi
2006 Honda Nighthawk
2009 Royal Enfield Black G5