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Author Topic: AVL vs. UCE  (Read 3139 times)

3rdgear

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AVL vs. UCE
« on: August 16, 2010, 01:23:50 AM »
I understand the basic differences between the AVL and UNC like fuel injection and unit construction of the engine. As far as performance is concerned, Is there a night and day difference between the two motors?  Is the new motor a game changer for RE?  If anyone that has owned both can compare the two, I sure would appreciate it.

Thanks,
Eric
« Last Edit: August 16, 2010, 03:04:52 AM by 3rdgear »

Sub

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Re: AVL vs. UCE
« Reply #1 on: August 16, 2010, 03:17:43 AM »
I'm going off memory (not reliable), but isn't it only a 2-3 HP difference? Honestly, the frame cant handle much more. :)

I think you learn pretty quick that this bike is not built for speed, just good looks,  relaxation and fun.

3rdgear

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Re: AVL vs. UCE
« Reply #2 on: August 16, 2010, 03:42:47 AM »
I was thinking more in terms of maintenance and reliability.  Are the two motors that different?  If the C5 came with the ALV motor, would people be as interested?  Just curious because I really like the look of the AVL and like the look of the front drum brake.  But like most things in life you can not have it all, unless your made of money.       

Ducati Scotty

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Re: AVL vs. UCE
« Reply #3 on: August 16, 2010, 04:43:41 AM »
The AVL engne is closer to the old iron barrel than the UCE.  Yes, there will be more engine maintenance with an AVL.  The UCE has things like hydraulic lifters, auto tensioning primary chain, and a few other goodies that make it easier to care for.  Most of the maintenance on the AVL isn't too hard if you're handy and attentive to the machine.  Pete Snidal's manual could give you a very good idea of what you'd be in for with either bike.  The chassis is pretty much the same between the newer and older bikes, mostly the same since the 50's.

The new UCE engine is definitely a selling point for the new C5 but I think it's so pretty there would be buyers even with the AVL engine, nut then I'm biased since I own one ;)  I was definitely more intrigued when I learned about the new engine but I probably would have bought one even with an AVL and just upgraded a few things.  I also love to tinker with machines and have been working on engines for about 30 years.

"Enfield went with the times, and has now in production an extremely civilized, Unit Construction, Computer Managed motorcycle for those much more interested in riding than in monkey-wrenching. Hence this manual, aimed at an entirely different audience: those who have chosen the UCE for its reliability and lack of need to tinker your way across town or down the highway."

http://www.enfield.20m.com/uce1.htm

Scott
« Last Edit: August 16, 2010, 04:46:02 AM by Ducati Scotty »

Maturin

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Re: AVL vs. UCE
« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2010, 11:43:18 AM »
The UCE engine output is probably not far away from the AVL┤s, but there is a big advantage on efficiency due to the absence of a seperate gear box.
If the enginge is 3 hps stronger and you get another 2-3 hps because of unit constuction and reduced friction losses, you have a clear picture how the bike┤s performance may differ.
On the long run this engine will certainly be the game changer for RE, bacause the improved reliability and reduced maintenance efford will pay off. In their home market the Indians will love it and the experienced mechanics that represent the most important part of RE-infrastructure will be able to deal with the engine.
In the export markets the UCE will improve the thin selling figures. The quest for new dealers will be relieved a lot, because handycraft work on little nasty details only experts know about is vastly reduced.
If the RE management will stay away from the global stock market, the future will be bright. Cheers on that!
2010 G5
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ScooterBob

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Re: AVL vs. UCE
« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2010, 12:10:05 PM »
The UCE engine output is probably not far away from the AVL┤s, but there is a big advantage on efficiency due to the absence of a seperate gear box.
If the enginge is 3 hps stronger and you get another 2-3 hps because of unit constuction and reduced friction losses, you have a clear picture how the bike┤s performance may differ.
On the long run this engine will certainly be the game changer for RE, bacause the improved reliability and reduced maintenance efford will pay off. In their home market the Indians will love it and the experienced mechanics that represent the most important part of RE-infrastructure will be able to deal with the engine.
In the export markets the UCE will improve the thin selling figures. The quest for new dealers will be relieved a lot, because handycraft work on little nasty details only experts know about is vastly reduced.
If the RE management will stay away from the global stock market, the future will be bright. Cheers on that!

Man - Is THAT ever well stated! Bravo!
Spare the pig iron - spoil the part!

ace.cafe

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Re: AVL vs. UCE
« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2010, 12:50:16 PM »
The AVL was the first attempt at meeting stricter emission control standards, and it sufficed until Euro3 standards emerged. The AVL attempted to retain as much of the original appearance of the engine as they could, but some things were changed.


The new UCE was a required change to meet new Euro3 emission control standards.
Since a new design was called-for, they brought it up to modern manufacturing standards, while also meeting emission control requirements.

Definitely a different target market.
The Iron Barrel was aimed at a vintage biker market,and those consumers mostly knew what they were getting into. There were some who just bought it because it looked cool and didn't cost alot, but they had a steep learning curve(trial by fire).
The AVL was not much different than that, but had a few refinements.
The UCE is a totally different animal, and is aimed to be a modern powerplant in a retro appearance package.

I would put the few hp difference down to the narrower rings which lowers friction, and the EFI and ECU, which improve efficiency.
I think about 10 more ponies at the rear wheel would have been a preferable choice, and they could have done that without compromising reliability, IMO.
They had a new platform, and I think they could have gotten rid of the "slow bike" reputation pretty easily, if they had wanted to. It won't ever be "fast by modern standards", but about 28-30rwhp would have gone a long way to make it feel more powerful on the road.

I'm not sure what to think about all these chassis tuning issues, because it seems to vary from one to the next.
What I can say is that the old Bullet can handle up to 40rwhp and 100mph+ on it's standard chassis quite easily, and is pretty solid and stable with that kind of riding. Although the old drum brake is a bit weak for that  kind of duty.

All in all, I think the UCE hit the target pretty well, particularly in styling of the C5.
I think there is room in the line for a sports model, with some added power. Sort of like Triumph does with the Thruxton Bonneville.
It's my opinion that most retro market consumers would prefer to have the engine perked-up by the factory, and wouldn't want to be taking it apart and modding it themselves. A factory sports model could keep it in the "no fiddling with it" category that the retro market likes.





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UncleErnie

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Re: AVL vs. UCE
« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2010, 04:32:46 PM »
Coming to a dealer near you?




Anyhoo- I have an AVL and the new UCE really has no appeal to me.  I suppose there's a certain amount of pride in keeping it up and starting it when old farts are expecting it to be hard.   If you're used to newer bikes, you'd probably want a push-the-button-and-go bike.
Run what ya brung

Ducati Scotty

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Re: AVL vs. UCE
« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2010, 05:47:32 PM »
I can admire the skill to keep an older style machine running and truth be told, I was a little put off about a British single that doesn't need vale adjustments.  Seems wrong on some level.  Still, most days I'd rather ride than wrench.  It still takes more skill and time to keep a UCE RE running than most Japanese bikes.

That concept bike has a beefier more unitized frame, a box section aluminum swingarm, and more rigid inverted forks that are probably cartridge.  If you want to push the limits of the engine, now you're talking!

Scott

ScooterBob

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Re: AVL vs. UCE
« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2010, 09:06:07 PM »
THAT little bike is DEAD SEXY! I'm sendin' the picture to India right now .....  ;D
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TheFatMan

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Re: AVL vs. UCE
« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2010, 02:10:42 AM »
+1
THAT little bike is DEAD SEXY!

csbdr

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Re: AVL vs. UCE
« Reply #11 on: August 19, 2010, 06:11:40 PM »
pretty, but not my cuppa....now if they revived any of the RE Big Twins, with EFI, that would get me heart poundin'  !

Bullet Bill

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Re: AVL vs. UCE
« Reply #12 on: August 19, 2010, 06:23:06 PM »


I think there was some talk a while back of stuffing a UCE into one of these Rickman frames?

EDIT:  Forgot that there are complications with swapping gas tanks on these bikes, due to the location and function of the fuel pump.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2010, 06:25:59 PM by Bullet Bill »
There's something that doesn't make sense... let's go and poke it with a stick.

Ducati Scotty

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Re: AVL vs. UCE
« Reply #13 on: August 19, 2010, 06:35:24 PM »
Easy enough to mount an external pump and pressure regulator :D

Bullet Bill

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Re: AVL vs. UCE
« Reply #14 on: August 19, 2010, 06:49:34 PM »
Maybe, but I could have sworn that the fuel pumps on the UCE Bikes need to be cooled by soaking them in fuel, hence their location in the tank.  All the same, it's an interesting idea.  I need to read up more on these Rickman Metisse frames... ???
There's something that doesn't make sense... let's go and poke it with a stick.

ace.cafe

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Re: AVL vs. UCE
« Reply #15 on: August 20, 2010, 02:05:56 AM »


I think there was some talk a while back of stuffing a UCE into one of these Rickman frames?

EDIT:  Forgot that there are complications with swapping gas tanks on these bikes, due to the location and function of the fuel pump.

I talked to Kevin about that, maybe a year or so ago.
I don't think it's going to happen.

However, I still may look at the option of doing Rickman frames for my Fireball 535 engines in the future, if things go well.
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head . Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available .  AVL mods. Redditch 700/750 Twin mods. UCE kit soon.

Please visit my new website:
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Bullet Bill

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Re: AVL vs. UCE
« Reply #16 on: August 20, 2010, 02:18:50 AM »
Thanks for clearing that up, Ace.  Kinda weird that I'd remember a post that old.  Still, after a little research, it's nice to know the Rickman name is recovering.

http://www.rickman-motorcycles.com/index.php
There's something that doesn't make sense... let's go and poke it with a stick.