Instability on C5

[LarsBloodbeard]

Here we have the proper recovery technique for a gentle high speed oscillation. Notice the rider gets out of the saddle to add weight to the front suspension to settle the oscillation. Next, he shifts his weight to the right side of the bike to counter the weave - and then pops back into the saddle to motor off happily!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Fa0GmdSN4A&NR=1

Enjoy!

lol, nice one.

[LarsBloodbeard]

The I5 most any place has to be the worst road in the US.
Bare

+1

It's basically a high speed railroad track for cars.

[mattsz]

Wow - I wonder if my first high-side will be that dramatic?!?

[Jack Leis]

Lets hope you never have one. That guy definitely has a Guardian Angel.

[mattsz]

Thanks, Jack.  I'm not planning any.

But if I do, I hope there's a camera watching!

[Craig McClure]

Just had to say that,  my 2010 G5 Deluxe, even with 19" wheels, handled like a P.O.S. when I got it.  I had to put Dunlop K70's on both wheels, better rear shocks, low rise superbike bars, & replace (sludge) fork oil, Before I felt comfortable & enjoyed riding it.
 Confident if you do the above, the ride will improve.

[mattsz]

Craig-

This brings up a point that, as a beginner to riding, I am curious about - it may be beyond the scope of this thread, but here goes...

In the context of this discussion, what exactly is bad handling?  Can it be adequately explained in a forum post, or does it have to be experienced to be understood?

As some of you know, I'm new to riding this year, and I have almost nothing to compare the handling of my bike to, other than a KLR 250 dual sport bike (ridden during my 2-day Motorcycle Safety Foundation licensing course), and a '75 BMW R60/6 (my first bike, bought last spring after the course).

The KLR was shite.  It really wasn't set up to fit me well, and was poorly maintained, i.e. it ran terribly throughout.  I literally could not brake with my right foot and shift with my left foot from the same seat position.  They couldn't get the idle speed to settle where it should have been, so it was either sitting and stalling, or sitting and racing - all weekend long they f*cked with the idle speed while I was trying to learn to ride on the damn thing.  And, we never left second gear or the parking lot, so who's to say about the ride?

The BMW (low miles, purchased long-distance, unridden by me, but at a too-good-to-pass-up good price, so I'm told) was tall and heavy, and it had carburetor and carbon build up problems that made it feel like riding a stick of stove wood around.  I fixed up the basic power problems of that bike, but sold it when, a) I found a willing buyer who had to have a mid-70's BMW and was ready to pay rather more than I did to prove it; and b) Royal Enfield had a summer sale  .  All but a couple of hundred miles of my riding experience has been on the B5.

"They" say the speedmaster tires are no good, but I haven't had any trouble.  Will I know that I need different tires when I fall down?  I know that there is almost no motorbike my riding style would challenge; I don't ride terribly fast (can't with our bikes, I guess, can we?), and I'm conservative in my cornering, and stopping, when I can be.  But as for ride - tires, steering, front and rear shocks - I've got nothing to go on.

Any thoughts?

[motorat]

it is all about feeling.
i have had 17 bikes from a dr200 through a rocket3 2300cc.
when you replace the tires with another brand that has better grip you will know what everyone is talking about. the more confidence you get the better you will know what to expect from your bike.

[Craig McClure]

Well Matt, I have spent most of my life riding, ever since I became hooked on bicycling as a youth.
   The best way I can describe handling improvements, is doing what is required, so your mount gives you the confidence (through its positive behavior comunicated to you) to go through corners faster & dodge potholes, etc without alarming you.
  If your motorcycle does not transmit positive affirmation to you that the tires are indeed gripping the road & running true, if the front end is mushy & dives while braking, & the whole bike feels to soft, floaty or remote from the road- Then changes are in order.
TIRES: Rib front tires behave badly on rain grooves. The Avon SM rear tire (first I experienced) Gave my G5 a squirmy sensation at the rear, added to the over-soft REAR SHOCKS, gave me no confidence in the bikes ability to keep me safe. Cant Loose wit Dunlop K70's 3.50 rear, 3.25 front- & they are reasonable.
FRONT FORKS:  the manual calls for 10w30 motor oil to fill. My forks felt totally unattached to the road, & a little like a Pogo stick. When I drained the legs, uneven portions of foul smelling black sludge came out. I refilled them with Amsoil ATF (basically a 20w hi quality synthetic hydraulic oil) this paired with the K70 front tire, tells me exactly where my front wheel is, & lets me feel 100% in control of it.
HANDLE BARS: the stock bars were angled up at the rear to miss the tank, they also angled back toward me. I found the position reminiscent of a water diving rod, or hedge trimming shears, & not condusive to a comfortable confident riding position (maybe somebody likes them). I changed to BIKEMASTER brand SUPERBIKE BARS, a fairly straight bar with only 3.5" rise. these give a slight forward lean & balance riders weight better between the 2 wheels.
REAR SHOCKS: I could not put out enough $$ for the Hagon shocks, but found a pair of new ordinary oil damped shocks with 250lb springs, in the 12.5" length required, My ride quality improved dramatically, with a positive certainty of where my rear wheel is, & what its doing. My G5 handles as well or better than the british singles & twins I grew up riding, & they handled great!
  Of course everyone is different, & this old bicycle racer probably has distinctly different personal priorities for his mount. It would be very hard, as being a beginning rider to know what is good in motorcycle setup. I think you would notice the difference in handling if you could take a test ride on a bike that was well sorted. ask around a local friend might help. Best Regards, Craig   

[mattsz]

Thanks for that informative reply, Craig.

Thinking about it, there is something else which I, and all us newbies, would do well to consider:  When, on a bike-specific forum like this one, many experienced riders all seem to share the same opinion of factory installations, installations that my bike shares, then it's likely that making the modifications the "big guys" make will improve my bike.  And that can only be good for me, even if I don't currently ride so's I'd notice...

So, when so many of you guys I've come to admire and trust all say those OEM tires don't grip well, the rear shocks should be upgraded, and the front forks are all loaded with random amounts of slimy sludge, I take notice.  And I hope to be able, again with the help and advice of everyone here, to fix those problems, even though to me, they aren't yet problems (in other words, I haven't fallen down yet!   ).

[LarsBloodbeard]

Some great info there.  I'd also like to add to the discussion that basically as soon as I started riding mine I noticed the rear shocks were not dampening the springs enough.  I figured my shocks were just worn out, as is most everything on the bike.  I also noticed the tires could be much better, but I figured it was just because they were so weathered.  Plus I don't really like the type of tread the front skidmaster has.  Regarding handlebar position, I actually like the stock style.  I don't like the overly comfortable leaned-back feeling of most cruisers, nor do I like the lean-over style of sportbikes.  Maybe it's because I started riding on dirt bikes first.  I feel they're in a pretty good position, and if anything could be a tad higher.  I like to stand up periodically though, such as through dips and speedbumps.  My front forks are also horrible.  They stick and then will free up at a stop and feel like I'm stopping on a sponge.  Need to get around to servicing them...

[barenekd]

When the front starts to push (understeer) to the outside of a turn, you have reached the limit of traction on the Skidmasters. A lot of people never ride that fast, but to me it occurred at a fairly low angle of bank. Unfortunately it occurred once to many times when I got into an impromptu race with some sport bikes. After all the warnings and the Skidmaster put the bike off a cliff! I put on the K70s right after that and never had any more such problems. Not mention the total improvement in steering and the general feel of the bike. Much more confidence inspiring. You can give up worrying about how squirrelly the bike feels and get on with some real riding. As for the shocks, the rear ones are too stiff with the compression damping and and kinda just bounce the rear wheel over the bumps. It's essentially the same as riding a hardtail. Different shocks are the only answer (Hagans work). The front end needs the fork oil changed immediately. It's easy enough to do, so get some fork oil and have at it.
The forks stick and again the compression damping is way too stiff. I left mine in way too long, and my body suffered accordingly. But tomorrow I'm going to give some 10wt a good workout. Results will be posted.
Bare

[Chiefharlock]

I have a 2011 C5.  I haven never dealt with any of the high speed issues that folks have been talking about.  It's sporting the Avons that come stock with that model of bike and I have done no mods to the suspension etc.  The ONLY time things have ever been weird at all was a few months after getting the bike and I took it out on I-44 and had her up in the high 70's and I hit a stretch of the highway that had those wonderful rain grooves.  There was a slight oscillation/wobble.  Now at this point with over 5000 on the clock I get none. And that is with having her out on 44 doing 80 as well. This bike is also my FIRST motorcycle and I have found it to be nothing but nimble and easy to ride, very stable and extremely forgiving.  Throwing on a free flowing exhaust and  air filter did a lot to make the power that the bike's engine produces much more useful.  So yeah, I guess I get a bit confused when I hear folks talking about all kinds of stability issues with their C5s

[1 Thump]

I have a 2011 C5.  I haven never dealt with any of the high speed issues that folks have been talking about.  It's sporting the Avons that come stock with that model of bike and I have done no mods to the suspension etc.  The ONLY time things have ever been weird at all was a few months after getting the bike and I took it out on I-44 and had her up in the high 70's and I hit a stretch of the highway that had those wonderful rain grooves.  There was a slight oscillation/wobble.  Now at this point with over 5000 on the clock I get none. And that is with having her out on 44 doing 80 as well. This bike is also my FIRST motorcycle and I have found it to be nothing but nimble and easy to ride, very stable and extremely forgiving.  Throwing on a free flowing exhaust and  air filter did a lot to make the power that the bike's engine produces much more useful.  So yeah, I guess I get a bit confused when I hear folks talking about all kinds of stability issues with their C5s

Thats because yours was 'setup' right. With the geometry of the C5 a precise setup is more critical. The new C5's have a geometry that's tailored to provide a margin of error. Not that its bad, but still needs to be setup right.

If you go back and read Bradey's and GHG's posts, you will see that their issues were simple fixes (well, not for them , but you know what I mean) and should not have happened in the first place. The new C5's (premium or whatever) have a different trail (fork and tire size) that adds to stability. The thunderbird has a beefier swing arm which might also be plug and play in the C% (I hope).

[Chiefharlock]

And you make an awesome point Thump.  The bikes weren't set up how they should have been.  A lot of the negative comments that get made, are very damning about the Bike and not about any of the set up that is involved in the assembly.  That's initial comments.  Obviously as folks post etc folks learn about less than scrupulous or experienced dealers not setting the bikes up how they should be.  It's just frustrating to see people dogging on a really great bike.