Federal laws suck!

[Lahti35]

Excuse the rant...i'm a little miffed!

Bought an AK47 clone last week and the fun began..... Uncle Sammy wants it shipped between two FFL because i'm not smart enough to do it myself i guess. Its days like this I wish I ad a full blown FFL instead of just a C&R.

Anyway, went down to the local gunshop on Monday and gave him the sellers info so he could send out the FFL via fax.

Seller never got it. Ok back to the gunshop on Tuesday to get them to try again...no dice again.

Wednesday.... back to the gunshop again to have them send it via e-mail. I hang out 5 minutes and he says its all set. Talk to the seller today and the e-mail showed but no FFL attached

Thursday..... Seller now needs another $30 on his end for his FFL, no mention of that til now

So anyway 4 days of workin' on it with some 6 different people involved and we've made zero progress. The gun was $650 but its going to be $770 by the time all the fees get tacked on. $120 to transfer a rifle From PA to MI?!?!

I wish I knew some of the local perps better...i could probably get one off the street for $150. Just another day for the Federal Gov keepin' the honest man honest and being totaly clueless about criminals

I'm seriously thinking about getting a refund and calling it good!

[The Garbone]

Might as well,  the EPA is about to outlaw the use of lead in firearms for health reasons anyway...

[PhilJ]

What! I'm 68 and been shooting since I could heft one. Used to cast my own lead bullets for special shooting events (precautions taken with ventilation).

Let it go and improve the gene pool, Govt.

[ScooterBob]

Yeah, gee ... I think the lead in the firearm ammo is SUPPOSED to f@#k you up ... am I right here? I personally don't lick bullets ..... and I SO agree that the gun laws in this country are SO ridiculous. You CAN own a full auto anything IF you have the money - or if you are hooked up with the right (wrong!) crowd .... but Paw-Paw can't go out and buy a .38 Special revolver to protect himself without a hassle .... Go Figger .... 

[1Blackwolf1]

  But here's the kick..most ammo will probably be copper cast.  Now that'll really do some damage..increased range and knock down.  I like that end, but the cost will probably be over the top.  But my thought on that was you can't hunt with FMJ so what's the difference between them.  Copper cast..FMJ sound the same to me.

  Call Cabelas or Sportsmans Guide quick and order a few bricks of ammo.

[Lahti35]

Call Cabelas or Sportsmans Guide quick and order a few bricks of ammo.

Cashed in all my club points on ammo last week

[ace.cafe]

That, they do!

I have a Yugoslavian M70AB underfolder(AK-type) in 7.62x39.
AK's are cool.

You can thank the Gun Control Act of 1968 for the prohibition on shipping guns direct from seller to customer without 2 FFL holders involved.

[oldsalt]

The lesson? 

Don't buy any wepon that isn't purchased from a private citizen.  The federal government that wants to take away our firearms will not have your name.

NEVER get a FFL or a Permit to Carry.  They will have your name when the time comes.  If you have a FFL your property can be serched AT ANY TIME without a probable cause or a writ!

Buy a good supply of primers and powder and slugs.  If lead is outlawed it is time to get a batch of 'depleated' uranium.  It's heavier than lead and does make for better projectiles. 

Buy a few pounds of black powder and some caps.  So far the left-wing do-gooders that wish to disarm us have not tightened up on black powder muzzleloaders.  My son ordered two .76 cal. [10 bore] rifle barrels yeaterday.  We are still allowed to build muzzleloaders without big brother's approval or knowledge.  Sales of potasium nitrate is now being restricted and sales watched by the government.   Get the picture?

[Archersix]

  We are still allowed to build muzzleloaders without big brother's approval or knowledge.  Sales of potasium nitrate is now being restricted and sales watched by the government.   Get the picture?

Not just muzzleloaders. You can legally build anything besides a machinegun if it is legal for you to own a firearm in the first place. You can just never sell any self built guns. Unless you have a Federal manufacturer's license.

I've got a single shot in .22 Hornet  I built many moons ago in gunsmithing school. I know of people who've built semi-autos .Unfortunately I don't have that much free time.....

[Cabo Cruz]

"Federal laws suck!"  Lahti

Amen, brother!

[Sam Simons]

"I'm seriously thinking about getting a refund......"

If you can get a full refund,do it......Then visit the gun shows and purchase one
from a private individual with one for sale-even if the cost matches what you
expect to pay now. The benefit-no documentation-and that is really what counts.....

[single]

I am so f'n sick of this left wing bs.I am ready to go somewhere else but love the country too much to leave it.I am not ready to die but I am not at all troubled by the fact that most of my life is behind me.It seems to me that since 1970,mostly bad news.I can forget most of it when I am busy or riding,still.I believe the anti gun fools are just biding their time at the moment.They need one more wingnut on the "Supreme" court to decide the issue.It is coming.We need to get rid of this once and for all,but how?

[Lahti35]

"I'm seriously thinking about getting a refund......"

If you can get a full refund,do it......Then visit the gun shows and purchase one
from a private individual with one for sale-even if the cost matches what you
expect to pay now. The benefit-no documentation-and that is really what counts.....

Actauly Sam i was thinking i'd use the refund towards more GAZ69 goodies my soviet brutha from another mutha.

Its just out of control the more they try and control it.

I feel sorry for the poor souls who blindly think gun control is the answer to violence hands down. I just don't get the deep hate applied to guns and the almost total blindness to the real killer who pulls the trigger.

I went to school with a girl who thought every projectile launching thing powered by powder or rubber bands should be banned so people "wouldn't get hurt anymore"...

I bumped into her last year working for the cable company..... She now has 4 kids and a beard.

[Blue Ridge Wheeltor]

"I'm seriously thinking about getting a refund......"

If you can get a full refund,do it......Then visit the gun shows and purchase one
from a private individual with one for sale-even if the cost matches what you
expect to pay now. The benefit-no documentation-and that is really what counts.....

How does a gun show work? You can just go in and buy from an individual directly? What about the ads in a newspaper? Same thing?

[1 Thump]

I feel sorry for the poor souls who blindly think gun control is the answer to violence hands down. I just don't get the deep hate applied to guns and the almost total blindness to the real killer who pulls the trigger.

I went to school with a girl who thought every projectile launching thing powered by powder or rubber bands should be banned so people "wouldn't get hurt anymore"...

I bumped into her last year working for the cable company..... She now has 4 kids and a beard.

Well, what is your solution to control gun related crime.

And, what about the 4 kids and a beard ??

[Lahti35]

Well, what is your solution to control gun related crime.
 

Short and sweet.... I don't think there is one. People aren't going to stop shooting people and it would be impossible to get every gun off the street. Sure the cops have those "turn your guns in" days but all that ever shows up are antique goodies that grandma doesn't want in the house anymore even though it might be a S&W rimfire revolver or grandads luger (ask me how i know)!

Video games? Bad parents? The voices in my head said to? Blame it on whatever (so the perp doesn't have to account for his own actions) seems to be the norm now. People kill people with guns.....guns don't kill people. Show me a system of gun control that stops crime, supports sportsmen, and works for collectors. I'd back that in a heartbeat but Washington will never be able to do it.

I'd love it if people didn't get killed by guns, it would make buying them way easier. I am dissapointed in the actions of the extreme pro-gun anti-gun forces. The harder the anti-gun people push the harder us pro gunners have to push back to keep things from becoming more regulated.... I might even have to join the NRA if things get worse soon

There are some guns i'd like to see banned...... but how can you ban some and not others? Bottom line the Gov wants its fingers in every kettle on the stove and thats too much Gov!

You don't want to know about 4 kids and a beard....its just too creepy! You see someone and then you see them years later with a beard that would make ZZ top envious and you wanna poke your eyes out

[ScooterBob]

Lahti35 - Very well put, indeed.

[Lahti35]

How does a gun show work? You can just go in and buy from an individual directly? What about the ads in a newspaper? Same thing?

1. You walk in and want to buy the gun at table XYZ from dealer ABC for $275.
2. (Skip to step 4 if buying a pistol) You fill out the background check paperwork and he calls it in. If you pass, go to step 3.
3. Pay the man and leave with your new toy.
4. If buying a pistol you must have gotten a permit to purchase from your policia, this takes the palce of the call in background check. Fill out the permit, pay the man, and split with your pistol.


If its an individual (the Bradys hate this) you don't need to do a background check. I setup at a show once a year to dispose of some things i don't want, usualy i sell 4-5 guns, ammmo, and antique gun stuff. This is the "gunshow loophole" that supposedly lets future killers buy the assult rifles they are going to blow folks away with.

There are shady dealers out ther...just like in everything else. They don't give a rip and really hurt the resposible dealers when they get taped being an idiot and selling guns to people with no id's. The Brady website has a good video of these scum bags!  

[1 Thump]

Short and sweet.... I don't think there is one. People aren't going to stop shooting people and it would be impossible to get every gun off the street. Sure the cops have those "turn your guns in" days but all that ever shows up are antique goodies that grandma doesn't want in the house anymore even though it might be a S&W rimfire revolver or grandads luger (ask me how i know)!

Video games? Bad parents? The voices in my head said to? Blame it on whatever (so the perp doesn't have to account for his own actions) seems to be the norm now. People kill people with guns.....guns don't kill people. Show me a system of gun control that stops crime, supports sportsmen, and works for collectors. I'd back that in a heartbeat but Washington will never be able to do it.

I'd love it if people didn't get killed by guns, it would make buying them way easier. I am dissapointed in the actions of the extreme pro-gun anti-gun forces. The harder the anti-gun people push the harder us pro gunners have to push back to keep things from becoming more regulated.... I might even have to join the NRA if things get worse soon

There are some guns i'd like to see banned...... but how can you ban some and not others? Bottom line the Gov wants its fingers in every kettle on the stove and thats too much Gov!

You don't want to know about 4 kids and a beard....its just too creepy! You see someone and then you see them years later with a beard that would make ZZ top envious and you wanna poke your eyes out

Ever wonder why there is almost zero gun related crime in the UK ? Lemme tell you why, No Guns. They are illegal, period.

I know I know, the big book gives us the right to buy them, and I am not suggesting a simple solution either. I think a combination of multiple things: Harder punishment for gun related crime, no automatic weapons (you really do not need them, join the army if you want to use them), and other stuff........

[oldsalt]

Not just muzzleloaders. You can legally build anything besides a machinegun if it is legal for you to own a firearm in the first place. You can just never sell any self built guns. Unless you have a Federal manufacturer's license.

I've got a single shot in .22 Hornet  I built many moons ago in gunsmithing school. I know of people who've built semi-autos .Unfortunately I don't have that much free time.....

Yes, I know that.  My "Machinegunners Bible" sits here on the shelf.  Here is one for you about the right to build muzzleloaders:  A Federal Court has ruled that the building and legal selling muzzleloaders can be subject to Federal Excise Tax.  See what the socialist queers have in mind?  Ether admit to the Feds that you built and sold and then pay the tax [so they have your name and the money] or fail to do so and be prosecuted, in a Federal Court, for tax evasion.     

[Lahti35]

Ever wonder why there is almost zero gun related crime in the UK ? Lemme tell you why, No Guns. They are illegal, period.
 I think a combination of multiple things: Harder punishment for gun related crime, no automatic weapons (you really do not need them, join the army if you want to use them), and other stuff........

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1576406/28-gun-crimes-committed-in-UK-every-day.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/gun-crime+uk/uk

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6960431.stm


I don't know man.....I don't think its working!   I'm not trying to be a dink here, i just don't agree with the way the UK handled gun control. Sure the registered guns got turned it and now the perps are having a field day.

If our Gov spent the firearms fees it collects on education instead of more federal gun BS we could begin to tackle the problem where it starts.

I don't want to see anyone killed via a gun, but taking away millions of registerd guns that only a very small amount are ever used in a crime is not the way to do it.

I've owned over 200 guns  at this point in my life. Bought, sold, traded, etc.....usualy 25-35 at any one given time are here at the homestead. We've never had a shooting or killing here in 30 years. Proud to be an example that having guns does not lead to crimes commited

I respectfully submit the following rare 1922 Enfield MkV...that would have been cut in half and destroyed were it not here in the US. Imagine slicing it with a chop saw.....makes me wanna throw up!

[The Garbone]

Eh, another example that is happening to me..

Have not had a mortgage for about 9 months since we sold the big house and moved into a flip.   We have no dept at all so we decided why not buy a  condo-foreclosure on the beach, prices could not be better.    Well, let me tell ya, we have to write a letter to the government telling then why we want a mortgage for a smaller home within 100 miles of where we live without selling the our primary residence. If we can't get a waiver we have to get a business or vacation home loan at a higher rate and shorter term. This will cost us thousands of dollars.

  WTF?  I need government permission to get a loan??  Fanny May has to review a letter?  What?  I work, have no dept and good credit...   F'n commies......   

[1 Thump]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1576406/28-gun-crimes-committed-in-UK-every-day.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/gun-crime+uk/uk

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6960431.stm


I don't know man.....I don't think its working!   I'm not trying to be a dink here, i just don't agree with the way the UK handled gun control. Sure the registered guns got turned it and now the perps are having a field day.

If our Gov spent the firearms fees it collects on education instead of more federal gun BS we could begin to tackle the problem where it starts.

I don't want to see anyone killed via a gun, but taking away millions of registerd guns that only a very small amount are ever used in a crime is not the way to do it.

I've owned over 200 guns  at this point in my life. Bought, sold, traded, etc.....usualy 25-35 at any one given time are here at the homestead. We've never had a shooting or killing here in 30 years. Proud to be an example that having guns does not lead to crimes commited

I respectfully submit the following rare 1922 Enfield MkV...that would have been cut in half and destroyed were it not here in the US. Imagine slicing it with a chop saw.....makes me wanna throw up!

Homicide rate in the UK : 1.45 /100,000 population
Homicide rate in the US:  4.55/100,000 population  (more than 3 times that of the UK, i.e. 200% more)

Homicide with firearms in the UK: 8%
Homicide with firearms in the US: 65 %

I rest my case.

[The Garbone]

Personally I prefer Liberty over a small bit of statistical safety.   A person should have the ability to act with free will,  any thing less is just slavery, be it owning 3 handguns, riding without a helmet,  electing not to pay health insurance or brewing your own hooch.   

You outlaw guns you cost jobs.  The local seller, the ammo supplier, the range owner, the foundry worker, the magazine publisher..   It makes me sick,  just leave people alone and let them live their lives.  If you feel unsafe protect yourself,  it is your personal responsibility not mine.

[single]

Yeah,4-5 out of 100,000 ain't that bad.Couple of 'em won't be missed,probly.I do not care what the hell ever is going on in other parts of the world.What works for them hardly ever works for us anyway.There is way too much concern about how the"others" do things,in my opinion.

[Lahti35]

Homicide rate in the UK : 1.45 /100,000 population
Homicide rate in the US:  4.55/100,000 population  (more than 3 times that of the UK, i.e. 200% more)

Homicide with firearms in the UK: 8%
Homicide with firearms in the US: 65 %

I rest my case.

Thats cause we got 57% more people who are willing to kill you for your name brand shoes than work hard and earn the money to buy them!


Facts and figures are dubious at best given who uses them and for what. One of the best teachers I ever had made us pick a topic that we supported, then made us write a paper supporting the opposite view. I'll never forget how easy it was to warp info to make it fit whatever i needed to support.

"9 Year old kills friend while playing with fathers gun." Over 12,000 children are killed each year by firearms. Sounds pretty horrible right? Well now consider that those two statements have nothing to do with one another. The first part reports on the tragic death of a child through neglect and accident. The second half is a statistic that includes 18-21 year old gang bangers in large metropolitan areas as "children" ( a loose term flaunted by anti gun folks and has included people up to 31 in some cases reported).

The real problem here is that those two statements are twisted together so it sounds like 12,000 9 year old kids are shooting other kids  all the time. God bless the media for making lies the truth and truth into lies to get the agenda they support n motion.

I'm for keeping every freedom i've got  We'll have to agree to disagree my fellow bullet rindin' brother

[Lahti35]

Eh, another example that is happening to me..

Have not had a mortgage for about 9 months since we sold the big house and moved into a flip.   We have no dept at all so we decided why not buy a  condo-foreclosure on the beach, prices could not be better.    Well, let me tell ya, we have to write a letter to the government telling then why we want a mortgage for a smaller home within 100 miles of where we live without selling the our primary residence. If we can't get a waiver we have to get a business or vacation home loan at a higher rate and shorter term. This will cost us thousands of dollars.

  WTF?  I need government permission to get a loan??  Fanny May has to review a letter?  What?  I work, have no dept and good credit...   F'n commies......   

What a load of crap man! I'll tell ya that compound out west looks better every day

[Kevin Mahoney]

I like the phrase " We will have to agree to disagree". Works will on this board.

I am not disputing the figures about homocides UK versus US, not am I taking a position, but when I go to the UK I notice than a lot of the killings, attempted killings are done with knives. Way more prevalent in the media than here.

[1 Thump]

Yep knives is a bigger problem there, because they have less guns around. But the homicide rate is about 200 % less than the US, gun related homicide is also significantly less. That has got to mean something. 

Lahti: I understand your frustration behind two unrelated stories being presented as intricately connected. The numbers I presented ARE correct, and tell the truth: If you have fewer guns around, you have less gun related homicide. 

[Kevin Mahoney]

Oh boy, here we go.......

I think the numbers are the numbers, but the story behind the numbers is equally important.
I can understand the logic behind the less guns, less gun violence argument and on the surface it make perfect sense.

I think that cities in the US that have had gun bans may have some instructive value. In the end I don't think gun crime goes down. The old adage that if guns are banned only criminals will have guns may have a ring of truth to it. It is pretty rare to hear of a law abiding citizen killing someone with a gun. There clearly are incidents but certainly not the majority.

I don't own a gun (and living in Phoenix there is a strong argument for carrying one)l, mostly because I am afraid that I would accidentally hurt myself or someone else with it. If I felt more competent to own one perhaps I would.

I fully support a citizens right to bear arms though. I think the history of the US gives us a slightly different perspective on this issue than some other countries. The right to bear arms is clearly one of the things that allowed us to be free. I used to laugh at the argument that something like that could happen again, but as I age I am less convinced. From my perspective all I see are politicians working at warp speed to take our freedom to be stupid or to be a non conformist away in favor of centralized which gives power to the few. I am not blaming this on a specific political party as I think both of the major parties push the same agenda. Maybe I am just getting old and cranky or maybe it is wisdom. Pretty hard to tell sometimes which is which.

[Vince]

     I know better, but...
     Lets assume for a moment that your statistics are correct. Are you taking into account societal differences? For instance Switzerland should be included in this discussion. They have almost universal. gun possession. Every citizen is a member of the armed forces and is required to have a weapon in the home. Their crime rate is much lower than ours.
     Britain has a higher and rising crime rate in areas that we seldom see. For instance, home invasion rates are through the roof. A hundred years ago when guns were freely owned,  the British Bobby seldom carried a gun. Now that there are no more guns in the general populace, the police are armed...
     The British people are completely at the whim of their government. Just recently a town council banned kid's wading pools because they were a hazard. Why? you ask... If there was a fire a pool might interfere with a fireman.
     In short, the only examples of British societal mores that I see are BAD examples of stupid governmental oppression.
     In the US, since Florida led the way with concealed carry reform in the 80's, the crime rate is spiraling ever downward as gun ownership rises. Progressive enclaves such as Chicago, Washing D.C., New York City, and most of California buck this trend. They also severely restrict the basic human right of self defense.  Hmmm...
     There is no such thing as gun violence. There is only violence. Restricting one type of weapon only brings other types into use.

[Lahti35]

    I know better, but...
     Lets assume for a moment that your statistics are correct. Are you taking into account societal differences? For instance Switzerland should be included in this discussion. They have almost universal. gun possession. Every citizen is a member of the armed forces and is required to have a weapon in the home. Their crime rate is much lower than ours.

So true...and we're talking full auto Stg57 and 90's. Sadly I hear swiss gun owners are under fire these days because thier shooting ranges are "noisey" and they have had several perps kill with a gun. They have the Protell organization fighting back though

[Lahti35]

Lahti: I understand your frustration behind two unrelated stories being presented as intricately connected. The numbers I presented ARE correct, and tell the truth: If you have fewer guns around, you have less gun related homicide. 

I'll make an addition if i may: If you have fewer ILLEGAL guns around you have less gun related homicide.

The problem has never been dads old shotgun or rifle he spent 30 years hunting with, its the $75 hot pistol bought under the radar in a back alley with the serial numbers filed off. Find a way to get rid of those and you've got something there. Its a shame that all the legislation in the world never seems to get those off the streets.

For the record: I do not carry a loaded gun and do not keep a loaded gun in the house.

[1 Thump]

I'll make an addition if i may: If you have fewer ILLEGAL guns around you have less gun related homicide.

The problem has never been dads old shotgun or rifle he spent 30 years hunting with, its the $75 hot pistol bought under the radar in a back alley with the serial numbers filed off. Find a way to get rid of those and you've got something there. Its a shame that all the legislation in the world never seems to get those off the streets.

For the record: I do not carry a loaded gun and do not keep a loaded gun in the house.

Vince: Let's not conflate the issue. Keep it on gun-related-homicide. Thats the statistics I posted. They tell a story you do not want to hear, and so you run to  'crime rate' , swimming pools or the constitution.

BTW, the regulat british cop on the beat is not armed. Off course there is such a thing as gun-related-homicide. That is the numbers I posted. Sure the baddies will go to knives or other weapons when guns are not around. There will always be bad eggs, and they will do what they they do. i suggest to keep them in prison longer. Taking guns away reduces the number of guns avaialble to be used illegally, makes it more difficult for them to kill people. Most illegal guns enter the market legally. Then they are sold in the grey market, dare I say gun shows, and on to the dreaded alleys. Some come from over the border illegally. Cut down on that too.

You could try to dismiss the numbers as 'numbers'. Might as well burry your head in the sand.

There is something seriously wrong when the homicide rate is more than 200% over the british. Is'nt it ?

 

[Lahti35]

Its gotta be a cultural thingy....lol

Switzerland has 7.7 million people an over 3 million guns in private homes. In 2006 they had 34 killings or attempted killings with guns used. The number of crime involving knives was 10x that.

The Swiss are the proof... you can have gun shows, target practice, collecting etc....and ultra low crimes with guns involved. They teach thiers how to safely handle and use them, the Swiss get the respect they need for them and it shows.

[Eamon]

This discussion made me think of this Onion classic:
http://www.theonion.com/articles/tornado-violence-are-tornadic-images-in-the-media,730/

For the record, I don't think of this as a black and white, all or nothing issue.  I don't own a gun, but enjoy shooting them and don't have a problem with others having guns.  That said, I think there can be reasonable restrictions to gun ownership just like there are restrictions on other dangerous things like driving automobiles.  Do I think very gun law out there makes sense?  Not at all.  I'm sure some are asinine.  At the other end of the spectrum, I don't buy the notion that everybody walking around armed to the teeth makes us safer.  I know some of you think there is no in between on this issue.  That's ok - you can think what you want and I'll think what I want (of course I'm right though ).  Does all that make me a "socialist queer"?   

Eamon

[ScooterBob]

This discussion made me think of this Onion classic:
http://www.theonion.com/articles/tornado-violence-are-tornadic-images-in-the-media,730/

For the record, I don't think of this as a black and white, all or nothing issue.  I don't own a gun, but enjoy shooting them and don't have a problem with others having guns.  That said, I think there can be reasonable restrictions to gun ownership just like there are restrictions on other dangerous things like driving automobiles.  Do I think very gun law out there makes sense?  Not at all.  I'm sure some are asinine.  At the other end of the spectrum, I don't buy the notion that everybody walking around armed to the teeth makes us safer.  I know some of you think there is no in between on this issue.  That's ok - you can think what you want and I'll think what I want (of course I'm right though ).  Does all that make me a "socialist queer"?   

Eamon

Eamon - Once again - The Voice of Reason .... BRAVO for this! You are quite right here - the "all or nothings" have polluted the REAL issue to where it'll never surface again. I am a gun collector / owner and part time shooter. I only blast inanimate targets and I'm only interested in old, unique or unusual firearms. Glock? Couldn't care less - Old Enfield rifle? Sign me right up! I have an AK because it's mechanically interesting to me - as well as a Roth-Steyr - again - interesting mechanicals .... Point is - I'm probably not "dangerous" and I'd gladly sign up for a "drivers license" for these. I think the folks that wouldn't probably have something to hide .... NOW the pot is stirred .........

[Lahti35]

Does all that make me a "socialist queer"?  

Eamon

Ok course not Big E! "Socialist queers" can only opperate state owned, redistributed,  and sanctioned property....we'd never see one on an RE!

[PhilJ]

Wow! Only on this forum. So nice the read thoughtful responses.

I been a shooter since I was six. I love to shoot targets. I have hunted, but don't really enjoy it.

My problem is, even though I'm a life member, the NRA is an extreme organization. That's my problem with them. The anti-gun group is an extreme organization. The political parties seem mostly extreme, both Repubs and Dems.

When those groups make their extreme statements against each other, the argument is essentially over, there is no place to go. Compromise is dead. Until we as a society learn to accept differences, and appreciate each other for what we are, we are doomed to be mired down in un-winable arguments with no solution.

[Cabo Cruz]

Well, my brothers and sisters, I'm going to serve two samples of food for thought on your plates:

1. Thankfully, the American Revolution succeeds for a number of reasons.  Chief among them is the fact that the King allowed gun ownership in the Colony -- there were no gun bans here back then!

2. Unfortunately, the Bay of Pigs Invasion failed for a number of reasons.  Among the principal reasons is the fact that the Dictator did not allow gun ownership in the island nation -- there was not only a national gun ban, there had been a national confiscation of privately (and previously legally) owned rifles, shotguns and handguns!

God forbid I should, again, lose the right to own firearms for the pleasure of punching holes on paper or knocking down steel plates or, God forbid, the need of defending my family or myself from an armed and dangerous attacker.

In closing, each one of us has a decision choice on the legal gun ownership matter.  It's great that we do live in this Bastion of Freedom!  Additionally, I am not going to debate or defend my position (conviction) on the matter.  Enjoy the food I shared with you, my brothers and sisters.

[ace.cafe]

Well, I think it's a pretty cut-and-dried subject.
In the US, guns are a right that is guaranteed unalienable by the Bill of Rights in the Constitution, and every elected official swears an oath to protect and uphold it.

What other countries do, and discussions about whether some people don't like it, or discussion about crime rates are rather immaterial.
Surrendering my unalienable rights or my liberty or property is not on the table for discussion under any circumstances.

For me, that ends the discussion.

[ScooterBob]

Excellent "food" papa! - And quite the "real world" examples as well. A man couldn't hardly argue with that. 

[Lahti35]

Excellent "food" papa! - And quite the "real world" examples as well. A man couldn't hardly argue with that. 

Hear, hear!

[oldsalt]

I don't own ANY dangerous guns.  When I pick up another one I always test it out.  I don't mean proof testing or going out and sighting it in, I mean finding out if the gun is one of the 'killer' guns that should be banned.  What I do is set the loaded gun on the kitchen table and then go about my business cooking and washing dishes and etc.....but I keep a watch out the corner of my eye on that untested firearm.  If at anytime it starts to rotate around and point its muzze at me I immediately unload the thing and go on the other side of town and peddle it out the window of the car to someone that is less picky about such things.   

As far as 'The Right To Keep and Bear Arms";  It must be remembered that we here in America have the more guaranteed rights and freedoms than ANY other people in the world.  Or any country at ANY time in the history of mankind.  There can be no arguement about that.  But the time span between the granting of them rights and the present day is only a quick 'flash in the pan' when compared to the long,sorry, history of mankind.  Our freedoms in the U.S. of A. can, and should be, regarded as a noble experiment.  A very delicate one being tried out during a very short blip of time.  Anyone that wishes to erode or, as the left-wing liberals wish, to totally take away various rights, WHICH CANNOT EVER BE REPLACED, is nothing short of a nearsighted fool.   Another light would go out that will never be relit.  These same people are so very worried about any species of animal or insect going away, based on my observations in the last few decades, couldn't care less if the only truely free people become part and parcel with Canada, UK, Cuba and etc..  Freedom has its costs.  Nothing is ever 100% positive.  Thinking people can't and don't claim there is not a downside.  But to make capital of defects resulting from our Constitutional Rights, and 'cure' the real or imagined problems by canceling parts of the Constitution is crazyness.  Absolute madness. 

Will  "...people with zeal and wellmeaning, but without understanding, put to death our freedoms"?  I hope I have that quote correctly written. 

One more thing.  Where in the hell do foreigners get off snivveling about our way of life here in America?  What is running through their minds to think it is absolutely O.K. to voice ANY opinion [other than to the other unlucky citizens of their own country] on our politics, type of government, political situations, rate of crime, laws, or displacement of the engines in our cars, or any other matter that is, perforce, absolutely none of their damned business???  I am probably sorta an average American when it comes to harboring opinions about other countrie's internal doings.  I don't even think about such things.  Sure, I know that we have the right to build and fly our own airplanes here [home made more that 50%] but most others don't.  Ya, we are not regulated by the government regarding what radio and TV waves we can intercept [only the transmission of radio wave is regulated here].  Its really loose here regarding cars; we can put together a hot rod for short money in our garage that will blow the doors off anything manufactured in any country and drive it on the street.  I somehow know that we are superior but I would never get on the net and try to bash folks in foreign countries because of their real or perceived shortcommings.   

[Eamon]

I think it is very American to be OK with anyone voicing their opinion on anything.  Surely we can all handle an opinion, no matter who it's from.  Xenophobia does nothing to advance the cause of freedom.

Eamon

[Eamon]

Well, my brothers and sisters, I'm going to serve two samples of food for thought on your plates:

1. Thankfully, the American Revolution succeeds for a number of reasons.  Chief among them is the fact that the King allowed gun ownership in the Colony -- there were no gun bans here back then!

2. Unfortunately, the Bay of Pigs Invasion failed for a number of reasons.  Among the principal reasons is the fact that the Dictator did not allow gun ownership in the island nation -- there was not only a national gun ban, there had been a national confiscation of privately (and previously legally) owned rifles, shotguns and handguns!

God forbid I should, again, lose the right to own firearms for the pleasure of punching holes on paper or knocking down steel plates or, God forbid, the need of defending my family or myself from an armed and dangerous attacker.

In closing, each one of us has a decision choice on the legal gun ownership matter.  It's great that we do live in this Bastion of Freedom!  Additionally, I am not going to debate or defend my position (conviction) on the matter.  Enjoy the food I shared with you, my brothers and sisters.

I've no argument with any of that, Cabo!

Eamon

[Eamon]

Ok course not Big E! "Socialist queers" can only opperate state owned, redistributed,  and sanctioned property....we'd never see one on an RE!

I'm trying to imagine what a state owned/sanctioned Bullet would be like.  If it was anything like the cargo van I bought from the county at their vehicle auction many years ago, it would come with brakes as some kind of weird luxury extra that you apparently had to ask for ahead of time!   

Eamon

[ScooterBob]

I'm trying to imagine what a state owned/sanctioned Bullet would be like.  If it was anything like the cargo van I bought from the county at their vehicle auction many years ago, it would come with brakes as some kind of weird luxury extra that you apparently had to ask for ahead of time!   

Eamon

This of a DNEPR! The Soviet Union pretended to pay workers to assemble the bikes - and the workers obliged by pretending to assemble them. I found "new" bikes with missing rod bearing shells, missing piston rings, valve seats that were never cut, drill bits broken off in oil passages, carburettors that were never drilled for fuel and air passages ...... so anyone even THINKS an Enfield has QC issues - I beg to differ ..... Gub'Mint produced would give you some, for CERTAIN!

[Cabo Cruz]

"One more thing.  Where in the hell do foreigners get off snivveling about our way of life here in America?  What is running through their minds to think it is absolutely O.K. to voice ANY opinion [other than to the other unlucky citizens of their own country] on our politics, type of government, political situations, rate of crime, laws, or displacement of the engines in our cars, or any other matter that is, perforce, absolutely none of their damned business???"  oldsalt

Br. oldsalt, are the above comments related to my "food for thought" post?

[ScooterBob]

"One more thing.  Where in the hell do foreigners get off snivveling about our way of life here in America?  What is running through their minds to think it is absolutely O.K. to voice ANY opinion [other than to the other unlucky citizens of their own country] on our politics, type of government, political situations, rate of crime, laws, or displacement of the engines in our cars, or any other matter that is, perforce, absolutely none of their damned business???  I am probably sorta an average American when it comes to harboring opinions about other countrie's internal doings.  I don't even think about such things.  Sure, I know that we have the right to build and fly our own airplanes here [home made more that 50%] but most others don't.  Ya, we are not regulated by the government regarding what radio and TV waves we can intercept [only the transmission of radio wave is regulated here].  Its really loose here regarding cars; we can put together a hot rod for short money in our garage that will blow the doors off anything manufactured in any country and drive it on the street.  I somehow know that we are superior but I would never get on the net and try to bash folks in foreign countries because of their real or perceived shortcommings."

........ and we WONDER why the whole rest of the world hates us ...... 

[The Garbone]

Vince: Let's not conflate the issue. Keep it on gun-related-homicide. Thats the statistics I posted. They tell a story you do not want to hear, and so you run to  'crime rate' , swimming pools or the constitution.

BTW, the regulat british cop on the beat is not armed. Off course there is such a thing as gun-related-homicide. That is the numbers I posted. Sure the baddies will go to knives or other weapons when guns are not around. There will always be bad eggs, and they will do what they they do. i suggest to keep them in prison longer. Taking guns away reduces the number of guns avaialble to be used illegally, makes it more difficult for them to kill people. Most illegal guns enter the market legally. Then they are sold in the grey market, dare I say gun shows, and on to the dreaded alleys. Some come from over the border illegally. Cut down on that too.

You could try to dismiss the numbers as 'numbers'. Might as well burry your head in the sand.

There is something seriously wrong when the homicide rate is more than 200% over the british. Is'nt it ?

 

No,  note really.... 

[Lahti35]

Man this post sure took off Still waiting on my toy only took a week to get the FFL faxed to the guy!

We got an arms bazaar coming up in two weeks locally.... can't wait to pimp the old girl out

[Cabo Cruz]

"Man this post sure took off "  Lahti35

"That's another fine mess you got me into..."

[oldsalt]

"One more thing.  Where in the hell do foreigners get off snivveling about our way of life here in America?  What is running through their minds to think it is absolutely O.K. to voice ANY opinion [other than to the other unlucky citizens of their own country] on our politics, type of government, political situations, rate of crime, laws, or displacement of the engines in our cars, or any other matter that is, perforce, absolutely none of their damned business???"  oldsalt

Br. oldsalt, are the above comments related to my "food for thought" post?

No.  But I liked your thoughtful post.  I don't care to be thoughtful when confronted by comments made by folks that do no even live in this country but feel free to offer their two cents on matters that are totally internal American affairs. 

[Cabo Cruz]

From one US citizen to another, I thank you for the response, Br. salt.

[oldsalt]

"One more thing.  Where in the hell do foreigners get off snivveling about our way of life here in America?  What is running through their minds to think it is absolutely O.K. to voice ANY opinion [other than to the other unlucky citizens of their own country] on our politics, type of government, political situations, rate of crime, laws, or displacement of the engines in our cars, or any other matter that is, perforce, absolutely none of their damned business???  I am probably sorta an average American when it comes to harboring opinions about other countrie's internal doings.  I don't even think about such things.  Sure, I know that we have the right to build and fly our own airplanes here [home made more that 50%] but most others don't.  Ya, we are not regulated by the government regarding what radio and TV waves we can intercept [only the transmission of radio wave is regulated here].  Its really loose here regarding cars; we can put together a hot rod for short money in our garage that will blow the doors off anything manufactured in any country and drive it on the street.  I somehow know that we are superior but I would never get on the net and try to bash folks in foreign countries because of their real or perceived shortcommings."

........ and we WONDER why the whole rest of the world hates us ...... 

Scooter

Are you contending that if we announce to the world that we will never again take umbrage to anything that any member of any country says about our internal affairs, and further that we will refraim from any answering comments, that we will then be better liked?  Possibly loved?  Let 'em freely slap their jowles [to us] about anything they don't like and we will mearly grovel.  No....Wait a minute....that is what what our government is currently doing!  I just now remembered that Obama has spent considerable time during numerous trips abroad apoligising for America being such such terrorable country.  Doesn't seem to have worked.  They continue to hate us even after the President of the United States has done a lot of international groveling at the highest level.  So how could I, a dumd 9th grade drop out from Walla Walla, resonably be expected to influence the 'foreign hate level' one way or the other?  I'm thinking the chance of that happening are about the same as the chances of a tornado assembling a Boeing 747 as it passes through a junk yard.  

[PhilJ]

Scooter

Are you contending that if we announce to the world that we will never again take umbrage to anything that any member of any country says about our internal affairs, and further that we will refraim from any answering comments, that we will then be better liked?  Possibly loved?  Let 'em freely slap their jowles [to us] about anything they don't like and we will mearly grovel.  No....Wait a minute....that is what what our government is currently doing!  I just now remembered that Obama has spent considerable time during numerous trips abroad apoligising for America being such such terrorable country.  Doesn't seem to have worked.  They continue to hate us even after the President of the United States has done a lot of international groveling at the highest level.  So how could I, a dumd 9th grade drop out from Walla Walla, resonably be expected to influence the 'foreign hate level' one way or the other?  I'm thinking the chance of that happening are about the same as the chances of a tornado assembling a Boeing 747 as it passes through a junk yard.  

You've missed the point twice!

[single]

It does seem as though some folks in other countries despise us.I think it is because we are a world-leading nation.Others would not care so much if we were failures.We have usurped them all and they do not appreciate it.It is probly a human nature thing.It does not matter.What matters most is that as a nation we keep our minds on keeping the Republic as it is,free and equal.I believe we should concern ourselves very little about what the rest of the world thinks of us.We should only take from them what is useful to us.They have no knowledge to impart that is relevant to our success,and most of them are morally reprehensible.We have reached this point of being very successful with little help from any of them,why should we concern ourselves with them now?Maintain peaceful coexistence and so on,surely,but let us chart our own course.We,here in this country,will always be the best judges of how we want to be,and how we should be.

[Sam Simons]

 Well done and correctly stated, OldSalt and Single.......Of course they dislike Americans,ScooterB,they always have.....Or at the very least,while the populace of whatever country held a positive  opinion because of our generosity,etc.,the controlling
gov't saw us only as The Golden Fleece. We are to be bled/milked and eventually defeated,if those fuckers were to have their way,which they aren't going to ......

[Eamon]

Lahti35, I hope you get it all sorted out!

As for the most recent comments, I personally (your mileage may vary) find them so far from reality that I'm not going to bother responding.   

Gotta get to work now, otherwise I'd suggest everyone pop open a cold frosty one!

Eamon

[ace.cafe]

Yes, we've been down this road several times here on this forum.
I don't see much point in it. It just raises the irritation levels, and isn't going to accomplish anything.

[Eamon]

Not to hijack things, but nice job on the stainless steel exhaust system, Ace!  It looks great and it sure would be nice to have a system that won't rust out.

Eamon

[ace.cafe]

Not to hijack things, but nice job on the stainless steel exhaust system, Ace!  It looks great and it sure would be nice to have a system that won't rust out.

Eamon

Thanks Eamon!

[Cabo Cruz]

Indeed, Br. Ace!!!

[ScooterBob]

You've missed the point twice!

Sigh ..... Looks like it ........ 

[oldsalt]

Go ahead...tell me what the point is.  I can take it.

[ScooterBob]

Go ahead...tell me what the point is.  I can take it.

It is simply that we Great Americans have forgotten the "Walk softly" part of carrying the Big Stick ........

[Lahti35]

I'm about to take a big stick to my local PD desk!

Man it finally shows up today, gunshop says come and get it! Off I go and while we're filling out the paperwork he says "got your pistol permit?' Huh...what??

Well hell wouldn't you know it because it has a folding stock its considered a pistol and requires a local PD permit. My local PD only happens to be open one day of the week from 7-3..... and that was yesterday

I'll never buy another modern gun that i can't buy in person. Between the fees, mistakes, time involved, and number of people it ain't worth it!

Excuse me while I give myself a swirly!

[Cabo Cruz]

Don't be too hard on yourself, Br. Lahti... look at all the lessons you've learned... so, you haven't wasted your time... have you? 

[oldsalt]

.50 BMG.  My big stick.   

[Lahti35]

so, you haven't wasted your time... have you? 

Absolutely not I won't be doing it again though!

[Cabo Cruz]

".50 BMG.  My big stick."  oldsalt

Br. Salt, that is one BIG stick... WOWZAA, BABY!!!

[VMAX]

I am amazed that this thread went as well is it has. That my friends is a tribute to the quality of the folks on this forum.

Papa Jaun: I want to point out one aspect of American History. Yes, the colonists had firearms & those that didn't need them didn't. The firearm was a necessary part of life for the majority. Many of the out lying villages/towns kept small arsenals of guns, powder & shot for emergency situations (Indian raids/attacks, etc). However, the British King ordered the military to confiscate all colonial firearms, powder & shot. It was not the Tax on Tea, but firearm confiscation that precipitated "The Shot Heard Around the World" at Concord Bridge & Lexington Green.

Many good points have been expressed. All coming from individual perspectives. As for me: I'm a NRA-LM; Hunter, reloader, collector; My children learned early to respect & use firearms; I am licensed for Curio & Relic (C&R), & concealed carry.

I truly believe in our Constitution & that without our 2nd Amendment we would not have our 1st Amendment. We are a country the relies on the Rule of Law.

Yes, we have far too many gun laws that are rediculous. Where is the accountability/responsibiilty for doing something wrong. Thanks, I'm done. 

[Cabo Cruz]

"However, the British King ordered the military to confiscate all colonial firearms, powder & shot. It was not the Tax on Tea, but firearm confiscation that precipitated "The Shot Heard Around the World" at Concord Bridge & Lexington Green."  VMAX

Point well taken, Br. VMAX.  We, the early 1960s Cubans, should have taken a page off the 1700s colonists!  Yes, we are a country that "relies on the Rule of Law."  Just in case, my body will still be warm if -- and I hope nobody ever changes our Constitution (P.S.) -- the powers that be come for my firearms!

P.S. The man who has made Jimmy Carter look like an outstanding president has made a couple of scary Supreme Court appointments, my friend!

[1 Thump]

I will be praying this evening for families of those twenty kids, 7 year olds....

[DanB]

+1

[Jack Leis]

Children , the epitome of innocence. The incident is like a bad dream and the media wont let it go away.

[1 Thump]

because bad dreams are a part of life, take a sleeping pill and just learn to live with it ........Or, maybe because these bad dreams are getting too frequent and its time to get help......

[Jack Leis]

Aren't you a real piece of work.

[1 Thump]

really ? hit a nerve there, eh !

[ERC]

Thump do you mean a law to stop the widespread purchase of auto firearms?  ERC

[Jack Leis]

really ? hit a nerve there, eh !

No, not at all . Actually made me laugh ! It just shows everybody on this forum what an imbecile you really are !

[GreenMachine]

All my firearms/ ammo is locked in a liberty safe with a s&g lock..I'm disgusted with what transpired....I would like to know what the father and/or brother have to say re. the mental stability of their son/brother over the past years  ...Someone had to know that he had a screw loose and needed psychiatry therapy..Maybe there we will find the answer and a possible solution..I was thinking that  firearms should be illegal in a household that harbors a unstable individual (validated or perceived).
Maybe a gun purchaser has to furnish information of persons in their household as part of the fed background check...The additional costs associated  would be part of the gun purchase (want to play/got to pay) ....At the least, they should be locked up in a approved safe   ..GM

[Arizoni]

So far other family members that have been interviewed say there was no psychotic behavior of any kind exhibited by the turd.
His aunt said that his mother was not the kind of person to ignore warning signs and would have sent him for treatment if anything was needed.

The dead mother was the owner of all of the weapons used but nothing has been said about whether they were locked up or not.
Had they been locked up there is a fair possibility that the turd would have been able to  get access to them anyway.

[GreenMachine]

that's what they say but u got to think that something was wrong with this wanker...Something had to be brewing for sometime and it was ignored..IMO...GM

[1 Thump]

Thump do you mean a law to stop the widespread purchase of auto firearms?  ERC

ERC, I dont claim to know the solution .... Surely there is one. There are several developed nations that do not have this problem. Frankly, I dont even know if a majority of the country thinks that there is a problem.

[ERC]

Your sure right about other nations not having this problem. Been a gun owner for almost 60 yrs. but this is getting crazy.  ERC

[barenekd]

I think, being that this country is in the worst shape it's been in since the '30s,and the government is going out of their way to lie about it is that people are just getting frustrated and have no one to take it out on.
Much higher unemployment rate than the gummint let's on. Probably near 30%, the jobs that are available are usually part time, so even the workers are not making enough to get by and have no bennies. It's very tough out there for a lot of people and some of them just can't hack it!
The idiots running the companies just keep sending work out out the country with the gummints help.
That's all I have to say. Any more and I'd be getting my email read!
Bare

[ERC]

Bare, I'll have to say your correct about the condition the country is in but the other nations have the same problem as we do minus the gun problem.  ERC

[barenekd]

I won't make any comment here. I want to not be under anyone's watchful eye! Just put it this way, I'm all for the 2nd Amendment.
Bare

[Kevin Mahoney]

Now boys and girls we are all supposed to play nice. We are also supposed to be somewhat above tasteless. I am going to lock this thread. Sorry