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Author Topic: footpeg vibration  (Read 1893 times)

pollocka

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footpeg vibration
« on: September 19, 2010, 12:03:44 AM »
My 2010 C5 military (900 miles now) had a serious vibration in the footpegs starting at 50 mph.  The dealer identified a loose engine mounting bolt, and it's much better now, but the left foot still buzzes as soon as I hit 55. Any suggestions?
Also - the owner's manual says the tire inflation should be 18 front, 28 rear. Is this for real? I've never ridden a tire that low.

gashousegorilla

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Re: footpeg vibration
« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2010, 12:28:29 AM »
My 2010 C5 military (900 miles now) had a serious vibration in the footpegs starting at 50 mph.  The dealer identified a loose engine mounting bolt, and it's much better now, but the left foot still buzzes as soon as I hit 55. Any suggestions?
Also - the owner's manual says the tire inflation should be 18 front, 28 rear. Is this for real? I've never ridden a tire that low.

 Welcome pollocka . love that C-5 military!  That Buzzing should go away soon , as the engine breaks in. Yes. crazy as it sounds, the tire pressure is correct. I have found the best range of pressure is 18- 22 front, 24 -28 rear.  The lower they are, the better they seem to be, for me, especially on the highway. Thats with the stock avon roadriders.
 Dan.
An thaibhsí atá rattling ag an doras agus tá sé an diabhal sa chathaoir.

r80rt

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Re: footpeg vibration
« Reply #2 on: September 19, 2010, 12:56:21 AM »
I run 27psi in front, 29 in the rear,18 is too low. The bike will get a lot smoother in a few hundred more miles. Around 1500 to 2000 miles it'll be a different bike,
« Last Edit: September 19, 2010, 12:14:11 PM by r80rt »
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Andy

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Re: footpeg vibration
« Reply #3 on: September 19, 2010, 03:23:04 AM »
The footpegs on my C5 loosen up quite a bit.  You gotta give 'em a tightening every few hundred miles and the peg buzz goes away. 
2010 C5 Military - "The Slug"

WillW

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Re: footpeg vibration
« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2010, 07:34:14 AM »
18psi on the front is way too low. The recommended pressures for Avon Roadriders are 27 front, 29 rear. I have these tyres at these pressures on my G5 and it handles like a dream.
There are several misprints in the owners manual. For instance they also recommend lubing the chain every 3000 km !!!
Go with the conventional wisdom
« Last Edit: September 19, 2010, 07:37:31 AM by WillW »
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gashousegorilla

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Re: footpeg vibration
« Reply #5 on: September 19, 2010, 03:42:50 PM »
  I hear ya Will about conventional wisdom, And I was reluctant to run my tires that low. But on the C-5, with these tires it makes a world of difference at high speed.And no sacrifice at the low speed stuff. The G-5 has a different frame set up. Adding a little flex to those low profile tires on the C-5 really helps.
 We did alot of testing after we found the fix on my C-5. Just to get it the best that we could.A little bird whispered in my ear to just try it. Man, night and day ! It got rid of that riding on beach ball effect that i was feeling on the C-5. 18 may be too low for some, but try going down to 22 front 24-25 rear. Try it. Go from there. Do your tires feel or  look flat? Do they feel greasy? These are not heavy bikes, much lighter then most. I think that has alot to do with it. To be honest I would say, along with the correction of the tail section on my C-5, The tire pressure played, an almost as important factor.
 I put 150 miles on my bike yesterday, running 18 - 22. The vast majority of it on country roads, not more then a qtr mile of a straight away. Going anywhere from 35mph to 55mph, ALOT of twisties. My buddy was on a ZRX 1200, and I stayed turn for turn with him ::) ::), He may have been being a little nice. Then blasted home on an interstate, cruising at around 70 mph. I had no problem.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2010, 04:09:03 PM by gashousegorilla »
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pollocka

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Re: footpeg vibration
« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2010, 04:51:01 PM »
Thanks for sharing all your experience with me, as I have almost none. The inflation hasn't been causing me any problems, I was just curious about such low numbers, as my husband's bike runs 32/36 solo. BTW,  I LOVE this bike.

WillW

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Re: footpeg vibration
« Reply #7 on: September 19, 2010, 05:09:35 PM »
I ran on the original tyres (speedmasters) at 18/28 when I first had the bike, then increased the front to 22, which I preferred. When I fitted the Road Riders, it was a revelation - the bike just leaned so naturally into the curves  - I didn't realise how much I'd been having to haul it over before. And no more tracking along dodgy road surfaces!
I've always run these tyres at 27/29 just because that was the manufacturer's recommendation, but interesting to hear your experience of running them lower. I'll experiment a bit when my bike returns re-spragged from the dealer, hopefully soon.
I still don't understand why they put those shite sadomasochismeister tyres on the G5 when they supply the C5 with the Road Riders.  :-\
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~ the best british bike they never made ~

gashousegorilla

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Re: footpeg vibration
« Reply #8 on: September 19, 2010, 05:25:18 PM »
 Yea, I don't know why either?  I bet on the G-5, the pressures your running are probably Good.  The C-5 is a different animal. With a softer, wider profile tyre, I'll bet you could run higher pressures on the C-5? For me It came down to air flow under that very high rear fender, and strong fenderstays. I would notice a bit of tail wag above 70 mph. I believe air gets under the tail, and wags it a bit. Out rigging with my knee's , blocking the air flow would stop it.  That's when we tried the lower pressure, it stopped it, or drastically reduced it. I guess just adding some flex act like a shock absorber?
An thaibhsí atá rattling ag an doras agus tá sé an diabhal sa chathaoir.

WillW

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Re: footpeg vibration
« Reply #9 on: September 19, 2010, 05:48:05 PM »
Could be. I had the C5 loan bike for a couple of weeks back in april while my G5 was in having the brake shaft replaced, but I was still getting used to being on two wheels after a long (decades!) break, so the finer points I'm afraid were lost on me. It'd be interesting to try one again now just to see - but I'm pretty sure they won't be dropping off a courtesy bike this time when they come for mine tomorrow..... :(
Glad you got that stability problem sorted.
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r80rt

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Re: footpeg vibration
« Reply #10 on: September 19, 2010, 07:29:43 PM »
I've tried the low pressure from the manual on my C5, that's why I now run 27 and 29. It feels much better to me at that pressure,
« Last Edit: September 19, 2010, 08:46:56 PM by r80rt »
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Kevin Mahoney

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Re: footpeg vibration
« Reply #11 on: September 20, 2010, 02:03:39 AM »
Conventional wisdom is a good place to start but maybe not in this case. Lets start with the premise that the tyres on the C5 and the G5 are TOTALLY different. One is bias ply, one is radial. One has a very round profile on the tread, one can almost be square (G5 rear). One is designed for a bike about the weight of the G5 while the C5 tyre will support a bike several hundred pounds more than the C5.

You CANNOT compare tyre pressures from one bike to the next with stock tyres in the same conversation.

Lets focus on the C5 since it is the most sensitive to different pressures. The C5 is designed to have very quick neutral steering. Basically if you want to twitch the bar, the bike will twitch - right now. It responds to steering inputs exactly as they are given. The handling of this bike is such that it needs the riders attention all the time. Now for most riders (even low time riders) this is not a big deal and feels natural. You may ride the bike and not notice any of this. The Italian company that tweaked the frame and steering are the same people who design frames for Ducati and most other Italian sport bikes. They offered Enfield three handing options. Slower handling, quicker handling and  all our performance handling. We chose the middle as the other two missed the mark for what we wanted. Frames and suspension were tweaked and the tweaks verified by professional riders on the companies track and the roads around Bologna Italy.

The G5 is designed as a commuter bike. It does not require the same inputs as the C5. It also responds to inputs but in a slower fashion,

The tyres on the C5 are designed to have a wide radius of surface area to contact the road. This allows for fairly radical riding angles. As a practical matter you will be scraping the tool boxes before you run out of tyre.  For us the most important thing is how much surface of the tyre is in contact with the road. Higher pressure less contact patch, low pressure more contact. There are many factors that go into pressure recommendations but the they revolve around weight and handling characteristic's.

We had a customer show up at a dealers with what he described and an ill handling bike. It was squirrelly by his report. The dealer rode the bike making no adjustments and agreed with the customer.. When asked about air pressure the customer said that he had them filled up to the pressure stated on the side of the tyre. If you look at the C5 tyres. It says what the maximum load carrying capability of the tyre is at a max. inflation pressure – In the case of C5 tyres about 40 PSI.  None of this information is at all relevant to what the tyre pressure should be. In the  of the C5 the 40 lbs pressure is grossly too high. At this pressure and at the weight of the C5 he probably had a tread patch as thin as a piece of pencil lead and the bike no doubt would squirrel around.  This bike was completely cured just by inflating the tyres correctly.

How do you find the correct pressure? You will find a published tyre pressure in the owners manual and on a plate/sticker attached to the down tube. In theory they should be the same. I think in the case of the C5 they are but I am writing from a hospital bed and cannot say for sure.  The most accurate way to inflate the tyres is to use the number stamped into the plate mentioned above. It is put there by the designers and is not subject to misprints, non current data etc.

This has been interesting for us since with Bullets of all models including the G5 tyre pressure didn't change the handling characteristic's that much given the nature of the tyres, frame and suspension.  I have almost never had to talk about this until the C5 came out. I also never realized how few people actually read their owners manuals.
To give credit where credit is due I have learned almost all of this from Scooter Bob and am parroting his advice from our conversations and experiments.


gashousegorilla

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Re: footpeg vibration
« Reply #12 on: September 20, 2010, 02:56:41 AM »

To give credit where credit is due I have learned almost all of this from Scooter Bob and am parroting his advice from our conversations and experiments.


Kevin, 1000 % scooterbob. Of course that little bird in my ear was infact our resident Guru. And I am very happy that you mentioned him. My not mentioning him was only out of a deep respect for his humility, believe it or not ;)  He spent countless Days with me on this, nights, weekends etc. And I do believe he enjoyed every minute of it. Almost as much as I did. Aways constructive, positive and open minded. I have never met anyone who loves what he does as much as he does. Countless Pm's and emails. At times I thought, Man, let me give him a break .Then Bang, at 10 pm on a sunday night, while I was in the garage, I'd get  Pm from him,asking about this or that. The man is always thinking about Bikes.
 Now I don't mean to get him in trouble, and get everone thinking, that's the kind of service everyone is gonna get. But I think you can agree, my problem was not the run of the mill type. To use his word's, "the tip of my tongue has been turning blue". An unbelievable Guy  and someone I consider a friend.  ;)
 Dan
An thaibhsí atá rattling ag an doras agus tá sé an diabhal sa chathaoir.

Roger

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Re: footpeg vibration
« Reply #13 on: September 20, 2010, 03:29:46 AM »
How does the 19 inch wheel kit change this conversation?  Same tire pressure?

gashousegorilla

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Re: footpeg vibration
« Reply #14 on: September 20, 2010, 04:05:48 AM »
How does the 19 inch wheel kit change this conversation?  Same tire pressure?
That's a good question Rodger. I guess it would depend on what tire you use on the front. In my case I don't think it changes the effects of the pressure that much. I am using the same Avon roadrider, Same with and sidewall size. 90/90/19. It is 1" taller, but the contact patch and sidewall are the same.
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WillW

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Re: footpeg vibration
« Reply #15 on: September 20, 2010, 08:01:45 AM »
Many thanks for your enlightening post Kevin - and by extension, Scooter Bob. My bike's away for repair today, but the moment it's back home I'll be letting air out of the tyres and experimenting. I'm still not sure I'd want to run these RoadRiders on my G5 for long at 18psi in the front, but I'll give it a try.....
I do know the G5 feels way more stable and responsive with the RoadRiders than with the stock tyres.
UK bikes, mine at any rate, have only the VIN Plate on the frame - no tyre pressures. Owners Manual and the EFI Workshop Manual both say 18/28 of course.
Sorry to hear you're in hospital - nothing too horrible I hope.
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Maturin

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Re: footpeg vibration
« Reply #16 on: September 20, 2010, 10:56:34 AM »
My G5 runs with 2,0 bar front and 2,3 bar rear witch is the recomendation of the german manual. I realized that the temperature of my front tyre (still the original) never matches the rear tire. Highway speeds of 100 kmh warming up the rear one to aproximately 50 °C, well above body temperature. But the front rubber is as best as warm as 35 °C or less, very often colder than body temperature.
Although the german RE-community prefers Heidenau tyres, I don´t consider  the Avons as bad (although they´re lacking steering precision). But I doubt the temperature range of the front tire is correct. The only way to alter that is to lower the pressure to the 1,3 bar stated in the Indian manual. This measure, however, erradicates steering precision completely and introduces the big wobble in any situation - no option at all.
In F1 they have these fancy heat blankets - thats what I need!  ;D
My appologies for hijacking the threat.
All the best to you Kevin! Hope they´ll let you out of the hospital soon!
« Last Edit: September 20, 2010, 10:59:13 AM by Maturin »
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qgolden

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Re: footpeg vibration
« Reply #17 on: September 20, 2010, 12:24:55 PM »
Thanks for the post Kevin.  It is always enlightening when you chime in with basic good facts that can be backed up with common sense and experience.

This conversation really should be had with Dealers. (perhaps it is, I do not know what kind of education they get)   When I bought my C5 the Dealer really could not tell me the difference between the two models.  They really did not understand the history of these bikes. Even on return trips back to the dealer I have been able to share more wisdom with tire kickers in his showroom than was shared with me when I bought mine.   I suspect they do not know any more today than they did 6 months ago. I certainly do.

Quinn
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r80rt

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Re: footpeg vibration
« Reply #18 on: September 20, 2010, 01:05:00 PM »
My C5 frame tag says 24psi front and 32psi rear
my C5 manual says 18psi front and 20psi rear.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2010, 01:17:00 PM by r80rt »
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WillW

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Re: footpeg vibration
« Reply #19 on: September 20, 2010, 01:46:15 PM »
I had the tyre pressure conversation with the dealer when he came to pick up my bike this morning. Apparently Watsonian Squire (UK importers) recommend 24 front and 26 rear - that's for the C5  (Road Riders). No info on the G5 stock tyres.
I'll try these pressures when my bike gets home.
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r80rt

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Re: footpeg vibration
« Reply #20 on: September 20, 2010, 01:50:43 PM »
I'm willing to try that, Everything I'm reading on the Avon AM26 road rider tire say's it's a bias ply and not a radial, have I missed something?
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WillW

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Re: footpeg vibration
« Reply #21 on: September 20, 2010, 02:23:31 PM »
No - you're right, it is.
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Ducati Scotty

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Re: footpeg vibration
« Reply #22 on: September 20, 2010, 03:27:51 PM »
My C5 frame tag says 24psi front and 32psi rear
my C5 manual says 18psi front and 20psi rear.

Same here for my C5, and there's another set of pressures in the manual for 2 up riding: 28/30. 

I was running 24/32 until Gorilla mentioned in a PM to try lower pressures.  I'm now at 22/28 and will probably try a little lower.  The sidewalls of these tires are amazingly stiff.  Believe me, I tired to change one by hand.  That may have something to do with being able to run lower pressures.

Scott

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Re: footpeg vibration
« Reply #23 on: September 20, 2010, 04:30:25 PM »
Hi y,all, when I last looked at the rim and tyre widths on the C5 I got the feeling that RE were using rims which were quite a bit wider than those used on the iron barrel models.

This would make the tyre walls a bit more upright (for want of a better word) and with the stiffer walls of the road riders I guess pressures between 18-24 front and 24-28 rear could well work.

I'll have a go over the next couple of days.

Cheers, Shappers.

Sub

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Re: footpeg vibration
« Reply #24 on: September 20, 2010, 05:42:32 PM »
My C5 frame tag says 24psi front and 32psi rear
my C5 manual says 18psi front and 20psi rear.

Thats quite a difference! I'll have to go see what my frame says..

singhg5

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Re: footpeg vibration
« Reply #25 on: September 20, 2010, 06:05:19 PM »
About a month ago I had started a thread on tyre pressure on G5 because when I had inflated tyre to higher than what was in the Owner's manual, the bike rode so much better and smoother and had less vibrations !

 http://www.enfieldmotorcycles.com/forum/index.php/topic,8343.0.html

The recommendations for G5 are as follows -

                                                                    Front          Rear
Owner's manual - Solo Ride                             18 psi          28 psi
Owner's manual - Double riding                        20 psi          30 psi

Frame Tag                                                     24 psi         32 psi

I am quite happy with 22 psi front and 30-32 psi rear.  
« Last Edit: September 20, 2010, 06:16:58 PM by singhg5 »
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ScooterBob

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Re: footpeg vibration
« Reply #26 on: September 21, 2010, 02:11:41 PM »
Kevin, 1000 % scooterbob. Of course that little bird in my ear was infact our resident Guru. And I am very happy that you mentioned him. My not mentioning him was only out of a deep respect for his humility, believe it or not ;)  He spent countless Days with me on this, nights, weekends etc. And I do believe he enjoyed every minute of it. Almost as much as I did. Aways constructive, positive and open minded. I have never met anyone who loves what he does as much as he does. Countless Pm's and emails. At times I thought, Man, let me give him a break .Then Bang, at 10 pm on a sunday night, while I was in the garage, I'd get  Pm from him,asking about this or that. The man is always thinking about Bikes.
 Now I don't mean to get him in trouble, and get everone thinking, that's the kind of service everyone is gonna get. But I think you can agree, my problem was not the run of the mill type. To use his word's, "the tip of my tongue has been turning blue". An unbelievable Guy  and someone I consider a friend.  ;)
 Dan

GHG - Thanks for the kind words! Everything that I try to do is simply to help the Factory build the BEST bikes that they can - and to make the new owners experience as delightful as it can be. All the time spent on this issue is just an example of that. YOU were huge help as well by literally BEING my hands and eyes on YOUR bike. We both learned a LOT of very valuable information. The best part of all is that you came to me looking for a solution - NOT complaining of a problem. GHG - You are a true team player here - and everyone on the Forum who has a C5 should thank you!

Let's not forget Kevin here, either. He makes it possible for us all to work on issues that SOME manufacturers would rather sweep under the rug and pretend they didn't exist. From TCI units to starter gears to "mystery wobbles" to "where do I put the bolt in my seat?"- it's all been on here for every one of us to LEARN from. This forum stretches from the halls of REM in Chennai to YOUR garage .... we ALL benefit from it, thanks to Kevin.
Spare the pig iron - spoil the part!

gashousegorilla

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Re: footpeg vibration
« Reply #27 on: September 21, 2010, 02:33:43 PM »
Yup, Lets not forget the main guy who makes it possible. He is the Schnizzle, ;)
 Thanks Kevin.
Dan.
An thaibhsí atá rattling ag an doras agus tá sé an diabhal sa chathaoir.