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Author Topic: Announcement of 48 hp Bullet  (Read 3786 times)

Announcement of 48 hp Bullet
« on: January 24, 2011, 08:21:00 PM »
"In a week already reverberating with   breaking news  of interest to RE fans worldwide,   who were treated to the inaugural launch and announcement of the  world release of  two mouthwatering   new Bullet 500 cc  models showcased in New York,  the disclosure of Royal Enfiield's move  to open a secomd  manufacturing facility   to keep up with the growing unprecendented demand for production of their highly acclaimed  new UCE Bullet motorcycles both at home and abroad ,and the Press Release indicating Royal Enfield's newly disclosed   plan to go toe to toe with business competitor  Harley Davidson in their domestic market in India with the planned introduction of two new large displacement twin motorcycle models after 2013,  now comes an announcement of even greater significance to afficianados of the vintage marquee . 
  Informed sources indicate that preliminary testing of  prototypes based on the tried and true "Iron Barrel" single cylinder motorcycle engine have shown the potential, with some optional modification from the base models, to achieve double the horsepower output and realistic top speed expections to reach "the ton" or 100 m.p.h.   These major performance enhancements, say the testers, have been achieved without the  sacrafice to  reliability or low end performance so characteristic of performance modifications applied ill advisedly to motocycle  engines which in general rely on high RPMs to achieve theri performance targets.   Instead, the Bullet prototypes,( not yet in production) have sought balanced and harmonized enhancement of breathing ot the engine with cam adjustments that emphasize low and middle range performance.  They have shown in trials that these levels of performance are easliy achievable below 6000 RPM , well within the reliable long term capacity of the Bullet lower end and long stroke con rods (which pose a practical limitation to "safe" revolution speeds but also confer on the engine it's hallmark high torque character).  Simillar improements in torque have also been observed with a broad flat torque curve throughout the useable range leading to a machine with "very tractable street manners " well short of full race tune. Individuals close to the development of this prototype say that the Bullets tested are very close in their performance to the Interceptor Mk 1 , and that the  weight advantage of the  big single compared to the twin makes them very comparable for real street use. This  points to the obvious implications of reduced fuel and insurance costs, details which will not be lost on fans of the iconic single.  (Their "Iron Barrel" prototypes still maintained an enviable 70 mpg fuel economy)
Asked whether similar or better results could be obtained with the newer UCE platform , the performance specialist indicated that although no formal testing or speccifications had yet been undertaken, there was no reason to belive that the same methods would not bring about large performance enhancements without loss of reliability .  No current production plans have been announced yet  , but the news is bound to be of great interest to both current and prospective  owners of Bullet motorcycles, and will likely become a decisive factor in the choice between RE's single and twin offerings, as well as attracting an even wider international following for the expanding brand ...................................................................


OK , so this isn't a real announcement, but there is nothing in it that is untrue.  the implications of ACE.Cafes's work with the Bullet engine and his very rational approach to performance enhancement mean that all of this is reality.   There is no reason it could not be reality with the UCE.  The technical   wizzards out there would know better than me what the implications of EFI settings and enhanced porting and breathing are, but I would think that a "Power Commander" could be scripted to this application, and I think that a 48 or higher horsepower  well mannered and durable Bullet is a very real possibility.  The implications of this are huge.  The sidecar crowd. the highwway crowd .   A cylinder head and crakshaft eschange program  and so on.  Even just knowing that with a finite set of practical and offordable mods you could turn your tame Bullet into a , welll .........."Fireball" when funds permitted and impulse dictated might be a major sellig point. (How many 883 Sportsters buy with the intention of later moving up to 1200?  )

Forgive the cheeky come-on, but I really think that what ACE is doing is bigger news than the "Twins " and could satisfy the hopes/needs of Bulleteers old and new.  Nigel

ace.cafe

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Re: Announcement of 48 hp Bullet
« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2011, 08:38:39 PM »
Nigel,

Grins! ;D

Of course, things like this are possible(but 48hp might be a bit optimistic), but don't seem to be in the desires for RE.
Wth the new UCE engine design, they certainly 'could' have picked a higher power figure, but I think they preferred to not do that.
It seems to be more of a choice on their part, and not a technological limitation.

I have no reason to believe that RE couldn't equal the power of a similar single-cylinder Japanese bike, if they really wanted to.
So, I conclude that they really didn't want to. And that's fine.

The engine is still pretty new on the market, and mods and accessories traditionally lag the time-curve a bit,because people have to follow-on to the new releases.
Things will come along, I'm sure.

The old Bullet had about 50 years for these various things to be developed over time.
It took me about 5 years to do what I did with the old Bullet.
The UCE will see its time come.


« Last Edit: January 24, 2011, 08:52:26 PM by ace.cafe »
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head . Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available .  AVL mods. Redditch 700/750 Twin mods. UCE kit soon.

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ScooterBob

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Re: Announcement of 48 hp Bullet
« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2011, 08:45:48 PM »
Nigel - You are absolutely correct in your assessment of ACE's work on the Iron Barrel .... He is a tuner par excellence! I'm currently working on optimising the fuel curve on the UCE with the Power Commander for smoother overall performance - and I have a couple of hopefuls for "bolt on performance" - we'll see. I'm juggling a couple of other projects at the same time, so keep your fingers crossed for a little respite - and a little dyno time for me! In the meantime - Keep up the gREat work, ACE!
Spare the pig iron - spoil the part!

Ice

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Re: Announcement of 48 hp Bullet
« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2011, 09:11:20 PM »
48 HP ? maybe they were measuring at the end of the crank shaft or perhaps it was typographical error.
I can break it better,,,,at night, in the rain, on the trail,, 20 miles from nowhere.

REA #136

"TIMEX", the '06 Iron Barrel Military that takes me everywhere I want to go... and some places I shouldn't.

Re: Announcement of 48 hp Bullet
« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2011, 09:44:25 PM »
Its a fiction   I just picked the number 48 because it is less that twice the current UCE output.. (nobody measured any such thing) ...and I don't actually think it is that wildly impossible  based on what ACE has already shown with the Iron Barrel   Even if it were 38 that would be pretty great,,,,the numbers don't matter so much as the ride, and from looking at the real time video clips of a Fireballed Iron Barrel against another performance  enhanced (unspecified) Bullet, there is just no denying............it is way faster.    waaaaaaaaay faster   And street performance not dyno tests are the litmus.    Though the  hp doeesn.t matter, still I think  ..the dyno test I saw being performed  was rear wheel and the suggestion was that it doubled the stock Iron barrel power   ???18 or 22 depending on what report.  Either way, greased lightening.  It can be done, and the UCE should be putty in the hands of a master (like ACE) or anyone else who takes his lead and follows the same methodical principals. .   Nigel   

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Re: Announcement of 48 hp Bullet
« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2011, 11:45:06 PM »
I can break it better,,,,at night, in the rain, on the trail,, 20 miles from nowhere.

REA #136

"TIMEX", the '06 Iron Barrel Military that takes me everywhere I want to go... and some places I shouldn't.

GreenMachine

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Re: Announcement of 48 hp Bullet
« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2011, 11:49:56 PM »
Nigel: u had me for about 3/4 of the way into it....nice story though..
Oh Magoo you done it again

ace.cafe

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Re: Announcement of 48 hp Bullet
« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2011, 01:01:18 PM »
Nigel,
Just from a quick cursory look at the critical factors, I' going to estimate that the UCE could probably get into the same potential power neighborhood as the old Iron Barrel Bullet, if both are fully modified.

From what I can see, the reason the UCE has that bit of extra hp and torque over the Iron Barrel in standard tune is that the UCE has the compression boosted 2 points higher, and I think that is accounting for most of the difference.

The hurdles to overcome on the UCE will be a bit different. But in the end, they are both the same displacement, same bore/stroke, similar port angle, and similar layout, so in the hands of an experienced tuner they would probably end up around the same power levels in the end. I really don't see anythiing on the UCE that would lead me to believe it would reach higher potential power than the old Bullet when fully modified.
Of course, I'm quite open to any technical discussion about the subject, if anyone disagrees.

« Last Edit: January 25, 2011, 01:16:31 PM by ace.cafe »
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head . Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available .  AVL mods. Redditch 700/750 Twin mods. UCE kit soon.

Please visit my new website:
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Re: Announcement of 48 hp Bullet
« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2011, 02:25:40 PM »
sorry wrote that on the fly between work stops, and the more excited I get the worse my typing becomes.I think you can get the jist of it though.   I am not talking here about every ______ Dick and Harry doing this mind you.     Nigel

Re: Announcement of 48 hp Bullet
« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2011, 05:40:09 PM »
All understood.  Part of my motivation in proposing this is that
a) I love the bikes and the brand
b) I love seeing stuff done right and getting the most out of something
c) I  like seeing entrepeneurs catch the brass ring, and , looking at all the welter of Bullet talk out there, there is no question in my mind that what you are accomplishing , and more imortantly , how you are accomplaishing it is the premiere way to go with the Bullet.
d) the UCE is here to stay, and I truly believe there are going to be a Tsunami or puchaser in the future.  They have captured something fundamentally appealing about motorcycling that other brands are missing. and their price point is not bad either.  If anything they have shot a little shy (as you have pointed out they very conscioulsy did ) of the performance taste to the averabe NA buyer, but that is just a window of opportunity for you.   Hence, among those new buyers of the brand is going to be a growing number of enthusiast who "want a little more" .  In this sense the recession and de-escalation of the material aspirations plays into the hands of RE as they are offering a quality vintage product with growing pretige in a market glutted with too expensive over featured subspecialized bikes.   People will always want good basic bikes.  The fuel economy (even modded up) is also in their favour, as is insurance.
e) the market is global
d) no, I doubt RE will ever enter this market themselves , or even back a favoured horse
e) everything starts as an idea.  I am no mechanic.  I don't even know some of the rudimentary things about engines that are obvious to someone with your background.  But I know ideas.  And this is an idea whose time has/will come.  That, you see is  why I have talked it up here on this forum :  Not to corner you, or get any kind of commitment from you, but really for the benefit of the hundreds of other slilent reader viewing these pages, and , yes , to put a bug in your ear.  Build it and they will come.  It can be done.  It will be done .  Question is only, who will do it and when.Regards, and , as always, thanks four your articulate carefully considered responses .  Nigel
PS  I am a doctor.   You would think if anyone ,I could afford an "expensive" bike But truth is, nothing appeals like the Bullet:  and I don't think I will be alone in that reaction once people start to see them.  Just wait till they see them go like stink .

Anyone else out there have thoughts about this?     

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Re: Announcement of 48 hp Bullet
« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2011, 06:05:31 PM »
Yes I do.

 The UCE is RE's future.

 I think a team ( I.E. Ace, Chumma, Scooterbob ) working in concert could readily adapt Fireball concepts and principles to the UCE,,,,,,But someone or a group of someones would have to fund the project.

I see California as the key to all this.

IF California with its large market falls in love with the UCE and the Fireball Idea the demand will materialize and then the economy of scale could begin coming in to play.

I have no real idea about the European market.
I can break it better,,,,at night, in the rain, on the trail,, 20 miles from nowhere.

REA #136

"TIMEX", the '06 Iron Barrel Military that takes me everywhere I want to go... and some places I shouldn't.

Re: Announcement of 48 hp Bullet
« Reply #11 on: January 25, 2011, 06:12:56 PM »
Actually Ace (and Ice) wrt the erroneous  perception that the modded bikes will "blow themselves up", from a PR/sales pont of view , a name change might be in order :    "Fireball !?!"   How about  "Super UCE"     "Speeding Bullet"  or "Cannonball" Nigel

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Re: Announcement of 48 hp Bullet
« Reply #12 on: January 25, 2011, 06:27:49 PM »
 Good point especially since Fireball moniker is associated with the Iron Barrel lump.

 For UCE applications I would like to see the applied technology concept called some else still relevant but different.

 Cannonball is inspiring, relevant and clever. It also relates to vintage advertising and slogans.

"Goes like a bullet Made like a Gun" ( cannon logo )
Old school big bore cannons had a single barrel  ;)
I can break it better,,,,at night, in the rain, on the trail,, 20 miles from nowhere.

REA #136

"TIMEX", the '06 Iron Barrel Military that takes me everywhere I want to go... and some places I shouldn't.

chumma7

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Re: Announcement of 48 hp Bullet
« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2011, 06:34:40 PM »
"Cannonball" is actually the name that me and Aniket have been referring to the impending 1070 dual fireball that we will be building together sometime very soon.  
Funny how enfielders think alike.
ACE Fireball 001

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Re: Announcement of 48 hp Bullet
« Reply #14 on: January 25, 2011, 06:47:48 PM »
Yes I do.

 The UCE is RE's future.

 I think a team ( I.E. Ace, Chumma, Scooterbob ) working in concert could readily adapt Fireball concepts and principles to the UCE,,,,,,But someone or a group of someones would have to fund the project.

I see California as the key to all this.

IF California with its large market falls in love with the UCE and the Fireball Idea the demand will materialize and then the economy of scale could begin coming in to play.

I have no real idea about the European market.

Ice,
There is VERY low probability of anything like this being applicable in any state using a tailpipe sniffer at inspections. There would by no means be any expectation of something like this meeting emission control standards. I might be good, but real miracles are a bit out of my league.
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head . Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available .  AVL mods. Redditch 700/750 Twin mods. UCE kit soon.

Please visit my new website:
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AcePerformanceBullets/info


Ice

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Re: Announcement of 48 hp Bullet
« Reply #16 on: January 25, 2011, 07:15:56 PM »
Ice,
There is VERY low probability of anything like this being applicable in any state using a tailpipe sniffer at inspections. There would by no means be any expectation of something like this meeting emission control standards. I might be good, but real miracles are a bit out of my league.


"Off road use only"  ;)

I can break it better,,,,at night, in the rain, on the trail,, 20 miles from nowhere.

REA #136

"TIMEX", the '06 Iron Barrel Military that takes me everywhere I want to go... and some places I shouldn't.

Ducati Scotty

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Re: Announcement of 48 hp Bullet
« Reply #17 on: January 25, 2011, 07:37:43 PM »
It's not the tailpipe sniffer, plenty of modded bikes run clean enough.  It's that whole federal law about no intake or exhaust mods at all.

Scott

Re: Announcement of 48 hp Bullet
« Reply #18 on: January 25, 2011, 07:52:11 PM »
WRT name and the images it conveys, Chumma Aniket and ACE   , this is your baby .  "Shotgun"  might be a name for a twin that keeps the projectile image but conveys double barrel.  "Rifle , or some variation therof could be applied to a single with "interior " improvements (like the rifling on the inside of a gun barrel) for enhancement of speed range and accuracy.  (Too subtle?) I thought I put something like this up before but don't see it on the forum, unless for someone reason it got pulled off by the forum moderator.   Maybe I just forgot to hit send.   And, gentlemen,it is an honour to be sharing ink with the US Enfield  "Rolalty" all of whom appear to have been invoked in this thread.  Nigel.

ace.cafe

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Re: Announcement of 48 hp Bullet
« Reply #19 on: January 25, 2011, 08:11:31 PM »
Okay.
Well, we'll have to see what happens.
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head . Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available .  AVL mods. Redditch 700/750 Twin mods. UCE kit soon.

Please visit my new website:
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1 Thump

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Re: Announcement of 48 hp Bullet
« Reply #20 on: January 25, 2011, 10:40:39 PM »
Yes I do.

 I see California as the key to all this.

IF California with its large market falls in love with the UCE and the Fireball Idea the demand will materialize and then the economy of scale could begin coming in to play.

I have no real idea about the European market.

California does not do emissions testing on bikes. But this is a modded bike. Maybe you could but an old used RE, register it, and then mod it, but then it wont be 500 cc. Maybe as a kit bike, but that might require emissions testing.

I think India is where the market is. There are so many RE's sold there, and folks have a real passion about these bikes there too. If some of these quality innards could be produced in India at a lower price point, it would sell.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2011, 10:43:10 PM by 1 Thump »

Ducati Scotty

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Re: Announcement of 48 hp Bullet
« Reply #21 on: January 25, 2011, 10:48:31 PM »
Cali just changed their laws.  Rather than noise and emission testing bikes officers are now allowed to write tickets based on any visible modifications.  This was mostly an easy way to ticket for overly loud mufflers since no reliale field test could be agreed on.

This is really just an enforcement policy of the current federal laws: no modifications to intake or exhaust on any new vehicles.  Sure, lots of items labeled 'track only' find their way on to street bikes and no one ever bothers them but it's all illegal.

Check out the site for the Scott Oiler.  Nice little auto chain luber that is now technically illegal to install on new bikes because tapping into the single vacuum line it needs is technically a modification to the intake.  They have a new model that doesn't rely on vacuum any more.

Scott

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Re: Announcement of 48 hp Bullet
« Reply #22 on: January 25, 2011, 10:56:12 PM »
Are you certain Fed Law says no mods allowed ?

 What about all those 50 State Legal / C.A.R.B. compliant intake, EFI and exhaust parts out there for cars, trucks and Harleys ? 

I can break it better,,,,at night, in the rain, on the trail,, 20 miles from nowhere.

REA #136

"TIMEX", the '06 Iron Barrel Military that takes me everywhere I want to go... and some places I shouldn't.

Ducati Scotty

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Re: Announcement of 48 hp Bullet
« Reply #23 on: January 25, 2011, 11:31:07 PM »
Sorry, you're right, I was being to broad.  It's just all the mods you want that are illegal ;)  If the part meets OEM/CARB specs then it's considered an equivalent swap.  For instance, a Fram air filter is just as good as an OEM for your car.  Also, there are some filters/mufflers/other parts that flow a little more than stock, are a little louder, and are still legal.  The really good ones you think of (Power Commander, loud high flow mufflers) aren't.  And of course anything that will push the emissions past allowable limits is out.

Also, the ScottOiler is only illegal if you have to tap the same vacuum line that goes to the EVAP canister since that is deemed tampering.  Silly since it has no reall effect but that's the letter of the law.

Sorry I got over excited in my original statement.  Too much sugar today :P

Scott

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Re: Announcement of 48 hp Bullet
« Reply #24 on: January 26, 2011, 12:45:17 AM »
Sorry, you're right, I was being to broad.  It's just all the mods you want that are illegal ;)  If the part meets OEM/CARB specs then it's considered an equivalent swap.  For instance, a Fram air filter is just as good as an OEM for your car.  Also, there are some filters/mufflers/other parts that flow a little more than stock, are a little louder, and are still legal.  The really good ones you think of (Power Commander, loud high flow mufflers) aren't.  And of course anything that will push the emissions past allowable limits is out.

Also, the ScottOiler is only illegal if you have to tap the same vacuum line that goes to the EVAP canister since that is deemed tampering.  Silly since it has no reall effect but that's the letter of the law.

Sorry I got over excited in my original statement.  Too much sugar today :P

Scott

What about the actual "enforcement" of these things, and does anybody really ever look at this stuff?
I mean, where I live out here in the boonies in TN, I'm sure there might be certain "laws" about some of that federal stuff too, but nobody ever pays any attention to any of it.
In your opinion, is this a real barrier, or just a technical thing that isn't really going to get anyone harrassed?
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head . Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available .  AVL mods. Redditch 700/750 Twin mods. UCE kit soon.

Please visit my new website:
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AcePerformanceBullets/info

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Re: Announcement of 48 hp Bullet
« Reply #25 on: January 26, 2011, 12:56:32 AM »
 Legal schmeegle, I agree Ace . I'm in a pretty populated area, and you very very seldom here about someone having a problem. Unless there obnoxious. Heck, they even ended yearly inspections. I really don't think to many people would be well versed in what a RE UCE should or should not have on it. Or how it should be set up. At least around here.
An thaibhsí atá rattling ag an doras agus tá sé an diabhal sa chathaoir.

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Re: Announcement of 48 hp Bullet
« Reply #26 on: January 26, 2011, 01:38:51 AM »
The only timed I've ever heard it get enforced are:
a) at inspection if your state has it and they're picky
b) if someone gets pulled over for making way too much noise or going way too fast.  Then they add those tickets onto whatever sillines you were already involved in. 

That's for individuals anyway.  If you're a business that takes OEM bikes, customizes them, then resells them, they still have to meet all the DOT/OEM specs.  On the other hand, if you simply sell an OEM bike to a customer, sell him some parts, and then sell him the service of installing those 'track only' parts, well if he decides to take the bike on a public road the business has done nothing wrong.  It's a fine legal line.  The same kind of thing affects kit cars that don't meet crash standards.  It's perfectly legal to buy a chassis, body, and engine, then pay the same vendor to assemble it for you.  However, if that vendor wants to sell assembled cars it's much more difficult.

I think California is the only place that anyone might enforce this with any regularity.  Even there it still seems pretty loose.  I've seen plenty of loud aftermarket exhausts when I last visited.  I think the Enfield would get bothered less.  It looks old so no one it going to pull it over suspecting it's really a 2011 model that needs to conform.  Unless you're acitn really foolish and asking to be pulled over already.

Scott

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Re: Announcement of 48 hp Bullet
« Reply #27 on: January 26, 2011, 01:44:46 AM »
Thanks Scott.

I think that's the key.
Because we have to be aware of all the issues that might be faced in trying to do this modification stuff, in the areas where people will want to be using it.
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head . Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available .  AVL mods. Redditch 700/750 Twin mods. UCE kit soon.

Please visit my new website:
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AcePerformanceBullets/info

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Re: Announcement of 48 hp Bullet
« Reply #28 on: January 26, 2011, 02:59:12 AM »
 There is emissions testing in the county adjoining mine. No shortage of high dollar ( and some extremely high dollar) heavily modded car,bikes trucks there.

 These modded vehicles are obiously properly tuned or they would not pass the emissions tests required to renew annual registration.


With moder EFI you can have your cake and eat it to.
 
I can break it better,,,,at night, in the rain, on the trail,, 20 miles from nowhere.

REA #136

"TIMEX", the '06 Iron Barrel Military that takes me everywhere I want to go... and some places I shouldn't.

Re: Announcement of 48 hp Bullet
« Reply #29 on: January 26, 2011, 03:48:56 AM »
Well, gentlemaen, everyone seems to be talking turkey here., so does anyone know what the implications of Electronic Fuel Injection (made I must assume for the stock spec'd engine) are when applied to the same engine now with increased port capacity and flow through?  Will the same EFI unit work?  You can't exactly rejet it like a carb, or put on a a bigger throttle body /carb (again forgive me if I am using wrong terms here.....not a mechanic)     Would a "Power Commander " fuel mapping unit automatically self script as you ride the enhanced set up and compensate for this (as the makers suggest it would for the combination of free flow exhaust and low resistance air filters) ?     In other words  though Scooter Bob is testing the Power commander and I assume some form of free flow exhaust /filter combos, "Bolt ons"  I don't see this as an either/ or option.   Those mods could be level one, but I think they would all be part of the higher levels of hardware mods too, for the reasons noted above. 
And Ace, though I take the point that a CNC kit could never mactch an expertly polished and ported head, could this be a optional  machine copied " standard" for the larger market , and  hand finished "deluxe"  type choice for the purists.  I would think tjhe big CNC cost would be in the set up of  first one, and the at it would get less expensive with every copy produced.  So if a "pretty good" machine copy template could be be achieved, then it would reduce the cost for both the purists and those satisfied with "standard" improvement.   Nigel  ,

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Re: Announcement of 48 hp Bullet
« Reply #30 on: January 26, 2011, 04:42:26 AM »
It'll probably be fine with a Power Commander.  It lets you alter the fuel map and has a fairly big range.  If things went really far and you either needed a larger throttle body to flow more air or if the injector just can't deliver enough fuel for the modded engine then you'd have to get more drastic: larger fuel injector, larger throttle body, or maybe even a completely new engine control unit.  I'd guess you can go pretty far with the stock setup and a Power Commander.

The unfortunate part is that unlike a carb where you can swap jets pretty easily and diagnose what it needs, re-mapping fuel injection is best done by a trained tuner with a dynomometer and some time.  You can do it by trial and error but it takes a LONG time.

There are some other fuel map alrering devices that are less precise.  The Power Commander has a huge map of throttle angle and RPM pairs and a + or - for each of them.  There are some that have fewer settings over broader ranges (not available for us yet) that let you tune on the fly with push buttons right on the unit.  They add a certain amount of fuel across the whole low range, a little more in the mid, and yet a touch more when you're at very large throttle openings.  While not as precise as a Power Commander they often do a fair job, are less expensive, and are easily user tunable.

Scott

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Re: Announcement of 48 hp Bullet
« Reply #31 on: January 26, 2011, 04:57:41 AM »
 As I understand it the stock EFI is mapped up to 18,000+ FT altitude and does correct for  low restriction silencers. Some UCE owners report some popping from the silencer on hard throttle closed decel.

 It has its limits.

Substantial engine changes require a programmable ECU.

Don't give up hope though

 At last  year's ACU National Rally Alan Hitchcock's and crew entered six bikes and took six gold medals. Three were EFI models. One EFI was fitted with a prototype big bore 535 conversion.
 The other two used his modified exhausts and  Dyno-Jet Power Commanders. One had experimental cams.

 About the same time Roberto Totti of Tottimotori in Italy was offering a programmable ECU of his own.

 Forum member Pistone also known as Fabrizio "McDeeb" DiBella of McDeeb custom motorcyles in Italy builds custom UCE based bikes and is rumored to be working on a 535 as well.

  As per the last we got from scooterbob on the powercommander installed in their shop mule, he was tweaking and testing for perfect tune to improve rideabillity first.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2011, 05:40:54 AM by Ice »
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Re: Announcement of 48 hp Bullet
« Reply #32 on: January 26, 2011, 02:43:35 PM »
Regarding this part of the conversation, I think the approach could go two different ways, depending on what you want out of the bike, particullarly regarding cost.

You could work within the limits of the throttle body and injectors and Power Commander package, and get what you can that way. I don't have any flow-analysis of that head and induction system, so I don't know where those limits are at this point. Perhaps if they are on the big side, such as is the traditional Enfield practice, they might be all you need, or they might even be too big, which could present a problem..

The other way is if we find they aren't all we need, then a new or modded induction system will be needed to go along with the head flowing. That would cost more.

It all comes down to somebody looking at that system(who knows what they are doing), and testing it, and seeing what is there at present. Until that happens, it's all a bunch of shots in the dark.

The first thing that I see is that it has about a 5400rpm rev limit, and going higher than that might present a problem from the hydraulic lifters. That's where Chinoy had his problems when he tried to mod this engine in India.
So, if the ports are small enough, it might be best to work under that rev limit, to keep cost down. Just do a "torquer" mod.
However, if the ports are "optimistically sized", and suited more for a higher rev range, it's very hard to put more metal into the ports, so then the rev range will have to go up to use the port size properly. Or, displacement will have to go up. Or both.

So the first order of business in this idea is to get a baseline on where this thing is currently at, in stock form. All the pertinent data must be measured and analyzed. Then there can be some reasonable assessments made about where it can go and what it will take to get there.

I have the most advanced head-development facility in the world at my disposal, and also the most famous and accomplished head-developer of all time, on site there.
I don't have a UCE to test.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2011, 02:48:00 PM by ace.cafe »
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Re: Announcement of 48 hp Bullet
« Reply #33 on: January 26, 2011, 03:44:11 PM »
+1 Ace.  I think there will be a 'mild' version with stock head and FI system and a 'wild' version with more.  As to the REV limit, would it be possible to go past that with a different crank or is the head the limiting factor?

Scott

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Re: Announcement of 48 hp Bullet
« Reply #34 on: January 26, 2011, 03:55:50 PM »
Well,you guys are all well past me.But the thing that I do see is that they are not making iron barrels any more.The new bikes are gonna take off,sales-wise,exposure will take care of that.In this country the new ones will soon outnumber the old ones.All of the developement  done on the Fireball modifications can only help on the newer engines.Fuel injection is not a stumble but an asset once an efficient control is devised.Ace,I have to tell you,you are the man to do this,to bring along a kit for the new models.The emissions testing may actually go away for a while as it is an expense not a single state can afford,conjecture,ya.

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Re: Announcement of 48 hp Bullet
« Reply #35 on: January 26, 2011, 05:03:00 PM »
+1 Ace.  I think there will be a 'mild' version with stock head and FI system and a 'wild' version with more.  As to the REV limit, would it be possible to go past that with a different crank or is the head the limiting factor?

Scott


Scott,
That's a good question.
Piston speed is normally the determining factor for settting rev-limits, and that is determined by the stroke length of the crank, primarily. With a 90mm stroke, I determined that I would limit the Fireball mod to 6000rpm, even with a modded crank and a Carrillo rod and lightweight piston. I did this for reliability purposes for street use. Technically, you 'could' push that 90mm stroke alot faster, as long as you are wiling to take the risks of failure, and reduced lifetime of parts. This is commonly done in racing engines where winning is more important than longevity.
So yes, it is possible to push it higher from a certain point of view, but it gets progressively riskier and shorter-lifetime as you go up the scale.
6000rpm on a 90mm stroke is already well above the Pomeroy Dictum recommended levels for reliable piston speeds in a street engine which expects good longevity.
Bottom end strength can play a part in improving the chances of going up higher, but I seriously doubt that Enfield is putting stuff any better than what is in the Fireball into their stock engines.
But for really pushing the racing lmits, it could be pushed over 7000rpm, or maybe even to 8000rpm, for a short-term life-expectancy.

To give you a basic reference, a 90mm stroke Bulllet at 7000rpm would average 4130 feet/minute piston speed.
A Yamaha R6 with a 44.5mm stroke reaches approximately the same average piston speed at just over 14,100rpm.
So, for all intents and purposes, pushing an Enfield to 7000rpm presents the similar piston speed issues to the engine as an R6 doing over 14000rpm.
And we don't have the same sophistication of design in our engines as the R6 in terms of balance. Plus, our unbalanced system has much longer stroke, so our PEAK piston speeds would be even higher than the R6 would have as a peak piston speed.
And we see that even the Yamaha reaches its rev limit just above that 14krpm level, at 14.5krpm. So, they are limiting it there BECAUSE piston speeds cannot go higher in even that sophisticated engine with all it's hi-tech, and still expect any kind of longevity in the system.
We don't intend to push that far, so I think that 6000rpm or maybe a bit higher, is all I want to be doing in a street Enfield and expect any decent lifetime.

From the POV of valve-train stability, the hydraulic lifters begin to show up potential issues before the 6000 rpm limits that perhaps the bottom end of the engine could withstand. Lifter "pump-up" is a well-known issue in pushrod engines, and is generally expected when rpms get over 5500 rpm - 6000rpm in engines with hydraulic lifters. This is where Chinoy had his problems. There are ways to get around that problem, which typically amounts to essentially using a solid lifter when hi-rev applications are anticipated, and the roller part of the lifter can still be retained with a solid lifter. And there are some high-performance hydraulic lifters available too, but I don't know if any of them are suitable to go in this Enfield.


The next thing is that we see only a ~600rpm gap between existing rev limits and the 6000rpm limit that I felt was the outer limits for a street bike with this stroke length.
So then, we need to determine if we feel that extra 600rpm is worth doing all this tuff to get there, or if it's just better to work under the existing rev limits.

Since rpms are part of the hp equation, we need revs to get a higher hp figure.
Exactly how many rpms is up to the builder and user. Many things can factor into this decision.
However, torque is on the other end of the hp equation, and so increasing torque will also give us more hp, and we don't have to push the rpms up as high to get that, and so it is where most long-stroke tuners spend their efforts.
The Fireball is primarily a "torque build" with some added rev capacity to pull the hp number  up a bit higher, and have enough revs to hit "the Ton" with our typical gearing.

A whole lot to making these decisions.
Many ways to build an engine.
Many types of budget considerations to be thought about.
So, it needs to get focused.
I  made my focus with the Fireball, based on many factors, and it seems to have hit the target right in the bulls-eye. That is what we want to get out of any other build. A bulls-eye for what the desired end results are.

As for the head parameters, we only look at those AFTER we have set the intended rev-range requirement, and then we port and cam to suit.
The head is not really a "limiting factor" unless it's already too big in the ports, or it's not big enough in the ports, and how much the casting wil allow us to do with it.
Of course, there are some basic issues like port angles and stuff, but we are pretty much limited to what's there, unless we're making a whole new head, and even then we still have to fit the thing under the tank, and it's going to be priimarily side-draft no matter what happens.. We can make minor port angle changes perhaps, and do alot with size and shape of the port if the casting allows it, and we can do things with the chamber to reduce valve shrouding and improve flow into the chamber, and alot of things like that, though.
A pertinent example of that would be the Fireball, where we didn't increase the port size at all, and still picked-up 55 cfm in flow at a very moderate valve lift height that wouldn't stress the valve-train system much more  than stock. So we got a huge flow increase of about 35%, improved combustion efficiency by using advanced atomization improvement techniques, and gained alot of power potential on the same basic port size as a stock Bullet. and to go along with it, we redesigned a large portion of the valve-train using high-performance and high-reliability parts, so that it would have no trouble at all with the job we were asking it to do.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2011, 05:48:18 PM by ace.cafe »
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Re: Announcement of 48 hp Bullet
« Reply #37 on: January 26, 2011, 06:02:47 PM »
Thanks Ace.  I was thinking of shorter stroke/lighter flywheel/bigger bore for 500cc but less piston speed.  Not sure it would be worth the trade off.  I see that if we want to exceed the 5500/6000 RPM range there are a whole host of things to be addressed.  I think a little more torque and power would be nice but I'm not seeking the race engine with high top speeds.  I want a Fireball, a little more umph with good reliability, street manners, and longevity.

This all reminds me of my youth with air cooled VWs.  Those engines are awesome stock and will run forever but if you start looking at mods any one serious mod requires everything else to be modded to keep up.  The stock engine is so well balanced as it is.  I think the UCE has more to give without too much modification and while still being a good daily driver.

Thanks for all the tech geek details ;)

Scott

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Re: Announcement of 48 hp Bullet
« Reply #38 on: January 26, 2011, 06:18:41 PM »
Thanks Ace.  I was thinking of shorter stroke/lighter flywheel/bigger bore for 500cc but less piston speed.  Not sure it would be worth the trade off.  I see that if we want to exceed the 5500/6000 RPM range there are a whole host of things to be addressed.  I think a little more torque and power would be nice but I'm not seeking the race engine with high top speeds.  I want a Fireball, a little more umph with good reliability, street manners, and longevity.

This all reminds me of my youth with air cooled VWs.  Those engines are awesome stock and will run forever but if you start looking at mods any one serious mod requires everything else to be modded to keep up.  The stock engine is so well balanced as it is.  I think the UCE has more to give without too much modification and while still being a good daily driver.

Thanks for all the tech geek details ;)

Scott

Hi Scott,
Shortening the stroke and enlarging the bore can be a possible route to take.
I have no idea right now how far the UCE bore can be enlarged.

I agree that there are alot of things to consider.
This is why it's important to look at desired end results. Mods can vary from mild to wild, and costs can vary just as much.

If the desired end results can be categorized and some basic ideas can emerge, I can guide people on what costs alot to do, and what can be done cheaper.

Probably the cheapest way to get a little extra, is to do what Enfield is going to do, and bump the displacement up.
You can't really do anything with compression, because it's already at 8.5;1, and that's probably all the available pump gas can handle.
And stroking is a full tear-down with crank replacement.
Hence, the cheapest and easiest way out, aside from external bolt-ons, is an over-bore and bigger piston. I think Scooter Bob is working on that.
Doing a head and cams is not cheap, but there is much more to be gained there in terms of performance, typically, if they are done right.

My hope is that the new UCE bottom end will be sufficient to sustain decent mods for power, and the work/expense could primarily be limited to the performance parts.
The Fireball ended-up with half of the expense being tied-up in bottom-end reliability improvements, which were costly and labor intensive.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2011, 06:21:22 PM by ace.cafe »
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Re: Announcement of 48 hp Bullet
« Reply #39 on: January 26, 2011, 06:32:58 PM »
For the non mechanics among us, does bigger bore mean closer to square than the current undersqare.   You mentioned reduction of stroke (presumably to allow higher revs and thus power)...To my simple understanding stroke = torque.  No? 
Seems to me that the quintessntial characteistic of the Bullet, and what sets it apart from more modern bikes is the disproportioate torque.  Surely it would be a shame to lose this (or even shift it substantially up the RPM curve)  The "Fireball " idea appeals preciesely because it doesn't mess with the stroke.   Even it it were square, I don't think you would sacrifice low end torque, just more explosion throughtout the range, with higher torgue and power , which, seems to me to be competely in line with the Fireball idea :  So a 600 cc would just give you more to work with.   Maybe I've got this all wrong.   But if street and a little more highway passing capability are the goals (as well as pulling a sidecar) then more power without shorter stroke should do it bu making the 600 cc available breather better   Nigel. 

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Re: Announcement of 48 hp Bullet
« Reply #40 on: January 26, 2011, 06:51:31 PM »
Ace,

While a stock bike in India might not take more compression I think it could make a nice mod.  As I recall the bike sent out for magazine review had a prototype high compression piston.  My Monster ran about 10.5:1 and I ran that on 92 octane pump gas, might not be available in India but it is in Europe and the US.  So while these might not make good stock options, they are good aftermarket options.  Here's kinda what I'm thinking:

Stage 1 - High flow air and exhaust with a Power commander to get the map right, smooth and more powerful with no hit to longevity unless you flog it.

Stage 2 - Stage 1 + high compression piston

Stage 3 - Stage 2 + cams

Stage 4 and up - bigger internal mods.

Stage 1 is easy and most anyone with moderate skills could install at home.  Performance increase would be minimal.  Stage 2 takes a little more skill to install but is straightforward and easy to both install and design.  Stage 3 needs some more serious design to restyle the cam profile.  It's only at Stege 3 and up that we really need to start anlyzing what the desired outcome will be so we can determine which compromises to make.  It's also where we'll start realy getting the major increase in power and torque.  Price also starts to climb here.

Am I way off base?

Scott

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Re: Announcement of 48 hp Bullet
« Reply #41 on: January 26, 2011, 07:15:18 PM »
For the non mechanics among us, does bigger bore mean closer to square than the current undersqare.   You mentioned reduction of stroke (presumably to allow higher revs and thus power)...To my simple understanding stroke = torque.  No? 
Seems to me that the quintessntial characteistic of the Bullet, and what sets it apart from more modern bikes is the disproportioate torque.  Surely it would be a shame to lose this (or even shift it substantially up the RPM curve)  The "Fireball " idea appeals preciesely because it doesn't mess with the stroke.   Even it it were square, I don't think you would sacrifice low end torque, just more explosion throughtout the range, with higher torgue and power , which, seems to me to be competely in line with the Fireball idea :  So a 600 cc would just give you more to work with.   Maybe I've got this all wrong.   But if street and a little more highway passing capability are the goals (as well as pulling a sidecar) then more power without shorter stroke should do it bu making the 600 cc available breather better   Nigel. 

Yes, bigger bore and/or shorter stroke in our case would come closer to "square".
Short-stroke Bullets have been tried in the past by various modders, and none were particularly successful in catching on. Not sure why. I've never actually ridden one, or seen one "in person".

The long stroke does give a longer moment arm, or lever, with regards to torque. So, from that  perspective, it does work as a torque factor. But there is much more to engine torque than just that.

As you mention, part of the allure of the Bullet comes from its layout, and its sound, and loping high-mass flywheel design. To many, any change away from that would  make it "not a Bullet" anymore. There are people who are fanatical purists about just the sound alone. In India, buyers go from one dealer to another, starting up all the Bullets and listening to the "thump", and making their buying decision on the one that they like the "thump" the best. This is serious business in India, and to some extent, elsewhere. Deviation from that can be perilous in some markets.

I didn't want to lose the sound with my Fireball mod, and Chumma is Indian, so we know that the "thump" is not only "right", but even better than it ever was. We nailed the sound perfectly in its improvement.

The 600 would provide more torque and power by virtue of the added displacement.
That works.
The 600 is likely to have an even longer stroke than the 90mm stroke of the normal Bullet. The Iron Barrel strokers are about 102mm stroke, and give 612cc along with an 87mm piston in the combination. I suspect that the upcoming 600cc from Enfield would be something along a similar approach.
They can give good torque and increased power without increasing revs, and they are used for better passing and for sidecar use, and such.
I didn't go that route, because I preferred the shorter(normal) stroke for my purposes.
I got my power in a different way, using the standard stroke.

Stroke length will significantly affect porting and camming, and must be taken into account during the process. To a certain degree, even bore increases will affect it, because there's more displacement, and if the increase is significant, it needs to be fed more by the induction system.

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Re: Announcement of 48 hp Bullet
« Reply #42 on: January 26, 2011, 07:22:52 PM »
I was thinking that, shorter stroke/larger bore = not a Bullet any more.  I would guess the current long stroke and high mass flyweel are not only characteristic and desireable from an emotional point of view, but also factor in with all the other dimensions of the engine, by design or chance, to create that magical balance that makes the engine so good as it is.

Scott

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Re: Announcement of 48 hp Bullet
« Reply #43 on: January 26, 2011, 08:08:36 PM »
Ace,

While a stock bike in India might not take more compression I think it could make a nice mod.  As I recall the bike sent out for magazine review had a prototype high compression piston.  My Monster ran about 10.5:1 and I ran that on 92 octane pump gas, might not be available in India but it is in Europe and the US.  So while these might not make good stock options, they are good aftermarket options.  Here's kinda what I'm thinking:

Stage 1 - High flow air and exhaust with a Power commander to get the map right, smooth and more powerful with no hit to longevity unless you flog it.

Stage 2 - Stage 1 + high compression piston

Stage 3 - Stage 2 + cams

Stage 4 and up - bigger internal mods.

Stage 1 is easy and most anyone with moderate skills could install at home.  Performance increase would be minimal.  Stage 2 takes a little more skill to install but is straightforward and easy to both install and design.  Stage 3 needs some more serious design to restyle the cam profile.  It's only at Stege 3 and up that we really need to start anlyzing what the desired outcome will be so we can determine which compromises to make.  It's also where we'll start realy getting the major increase in power and torque.  Price also starts to climb here.

Am I way off base?

Scott

Okay Scott,
Regarding the 10.5:1 compression in your Ducati, we have to understand that is a "static ratio", and the ultimate result that the engine sees is affected by the cam timing. This is how all these engines with these high compression static ratios are running on pump gas. A late closing intake valve causes a shorter swept-volume to build compression after the intake valve closes, so the higher dome on the piston yields an actual working compression of something less than the static ratio would seem to indicate.
Each engine has a set-up which eventually yields a working compression that is within the tolerance limits of the fuel. In the end, they all end up around the same actual working compression levels, with some extra amount possible from good chamber activity and small chamber volume. Some help from an ECU which can retard spark under load and under knocking conditions may also be in play.
We don't really know the limits of the UCE chamber yet, in terms of its characteristics to hold-off detonation at/above fuel limits. Perhaps there may be something good there, but we don't know yet. If it is possible to go higher,  or if we need a bigger dome to compensate for later intake closing event, then we can use that.

So going to the Stages you listed.
They all look viable to me.
I would recommend combining Stage 2 and Stage 3, for the reasons I described above about cam timing having a major effecton the actual working compression of the engine. However, if a person didn't want cams, then a piston should be available which can squeeze as much as practical out of the stock cam timing.

So you are not off-base at all, really.
It all makes sense, and I recommend similar steps.
What I do with the piston situation is to have them get the hi-comp piston, and use a spacer under the barrel to drop the deck-height of the piston in relation to the chamber, and keep the compression lower that way to work with the stock cams.
Then, when they put in the performance cams, they can remove the spacer under the barrel, and use the full compression potential of the piston dome, which will work right with the performance cams I use,which  have later intake closing timing.
You might be interested to know that my cam timing events used in the Fireball are very similar to the cam timing of the Ducati 1000DS aircooled 2-valve twin.

So yes, this is a logical approach toward performance stages, IMO.
And preferably,we want each stage to use parts which will not be obsoleted by the subsequent stages.

« Last Edit: January 26, 2011, 08:23:12 PM by ace.cafe »
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Re: Announcement of 48 hp Bullet
« Reply #44 on: January 26, 2011, 09:25:59 PM »
Thanks for the explanation of static compression.

Yeah, makes sense to combine 2 & 3 I guess.  I was thinking there might be some advantage to the piston without the cams but there's so much more to be had with the combination.

Scott

Re: Announcement of 48 hp Bullet
« Reply #45 on: January 26, 2011, 09:35:40 PM »
Since both steps require bench time (= mechanic time = $) , once the engine is open, might as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb and do the whole innards anyway. Plus the interactive benfit of the mods.   To me, the distinction cost wise might be between drone copied CNC  versus hand polished ports.  (Using machine copies would mean a true exchange program---bolt off /bolt on, whereas using the hand poliish means sending the head out and waiting, unless of course, it was popular enough to have some "signature " heads sitting on the shelf.   So the last step might be "4" (now "3" ) a and b options . Nigel

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Re: Announcement of 48 hp Bullet
« Reply #46 on: January 26, 2011, 10:52:50 PM »
Sometimes discussions like this are very helpful to clarify things in people's  minds about what steps can be taken, and how to go about it.

Kinda fun!
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Re: Announcement of 48 hp Bullet
« Reply #47 on: January 26, 2011, 11:43:05 PM »
And so much less expensive that actual work ;)

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Re: Announcement of 48 hp Bullet
« Reply #48 on: January 27, 2011, 12:11:02 AM »
bench time (= mechanic time = $) , once the engine is open, might as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb and do the whole innards anyway.

I swear I heard that the UCE bottom end was purposely over built compared to its output.

I vaguely recall something along the lines of it being able to handle up to 60HP ?

If that is the case than no bottom end mods would be needed.
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Re: Announcement of 48 hp Bullet
« Reply #49 on: January 27, 2011, 12:13:43 AM »
I think it was SB who said the used "Dump truck" bearings in the thing..
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Re: Announcement of 48 hp Bullet
« Reply #51 on: January 27, 2011, 12:48:48 AM »
I swear I heard that the UCE bottom end was purposely over built compared to its output.

I think that was ScooterBob, don't know if he said purposely.

You still might need low end work for high performance: higer tolerance bearings, balanced/blueprinted crank, lightened flywheel, etc.  Still, I'm with you, you can probably get some more umph fromt he top end with the existing crank.  That may not hold true if you want a higher redline.

Scott

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Re: Announcement of 48 hp Bullet
« Reply #52 on: January 27, 2011, 02:16:10 AM »
Well, we'll see what it's made of when the time comes to put it to the test, won't we?

When you start modifying engines, it soon becomes evident how much it will hold.
Keeping the rev limits to a sane territory is a lot of help in keeping all the parts attached together.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2011, 02:23:02 AM by ace.cafe »
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Re: Announcement of 48 hp Bullet
« Reply #53 on: January 27, 2011, 03:01:57 AM »
This write up on the UCE seems to allude to some significant  bottom end and connecting rod upgrades from the Iron Barrel.   So it might just be a matter of replacing the cams.  Nigel.    And I don't lightening  the flywheel is the way you want to go:   Like the BSA Goldstar, that would give you high rpm performance and power but at the cost of low rpm manners and the momentum that helps the Bullet power out of curves and slowly wind up acceleration in any gear.  Lighter fly.....more shifting and revving, and idling /starting problems .  i think most riders interested in this bike wuold  like strong pull from the bottom and middle, ower building up from the upper to middle range toward the redline:  If they wanted that, they would get a sport bike. .  ACEs type of mods can get the slowly winding up power without the loss of the engines defining characteristics. 


COPIED FROM A ROYAL ENFIELD SITE;
The advantages of unit construction are:

•fewer external oil lines to leak/fracture
•no external drive connecting engine and transmission, thus simplifying maintenance
•mounting in the frame is simpler - no need to align engine and transmission within frame
•the combined casting may be stronger or lighter - hence more easily used as a stressed member of the frame.
The chief disadvantage is that the engine and transmission have different lubrication requirements. In a design where the engine and transmission use a common oil supply, the oil used must take the requirements of both into account. (eg 1972 Ducati 750) Also the gearbox cannot be changed to that of another manufacturer. If different gears are required, they have to fit in the existing unit construction casting.

The chief advantage of separate construction is the ease of removing gearbox or engine separately for maintenance, or for complete gearbox replacement, with stronger gears, or more gears, or better spaced gears.
Another technology used in the bike is electronic fuel injection (EFI) which replaced the Lean-Burn Mikuni CV Carburetor engine. The EFI better controls the air-fuel mixture ratios at different speeds and riding conditions.


A better cooling alloy cylinder, stronger crankshaft and connecting rod, improved oiling and a host of other features are all part of the improved Royal Enfield UCE engine.


The UCE 500 EFI was originally unveiled at 2008 Motorcycle Shows in Cologne, Germany and Birmingham, England, although it took until a few years for the news units to hit the U.S. market.


The new model is more powerful, technically advanced and more environment friendly. Important to long time RE motorcycle enthusiasts, it also sport an authentic classic look that reflects original British motorcycle styling.


The old cast-iron engine which was heavy, less efficient, more space consuming and wasn't very efficient either. The new engine produces 27.5 bhp of power and 41.3 Nm of torque at just 4000 rpm.


The lazy nature and the lowly rpm at which the peak rpm is delivered makes for a very commuter friendly experience through slow moving traffic, with the bike pulling with aplomb in low revs and high gears.


The UCE powerplant is mated to a five-speed gearbox. The gearshifts are spongy and relatively trouble free for an RE. It could take time getting used to the power delivery and the gearshifts but once familiarized, this motorcycle engine won't let you down.


The engine feels substantially refined when compared with its predecessor and transmits just the right amount of vibration to the handlebars. All you need to reach a three-digit speeds is a full twist of the throttle.


As well, with the new UCE, Royal Enfield became the first motorcycle manufacturer in India to produce and sell a U.S. DOT and Euro-III compliant motorcycle.

************************************************************************************************
So it looks like a beefed up solid con rod and crankcase are already in place..  If the 600 sleeve also becomes availble that just kicks it up a notch, and maybe means that the port polishing wouldn't have to be perfect to get very good performance improvement , though that would remain an option .  Even the piston would only have to be coated   There is probably no advantage to try to get much over 600 cc without a counterbalancer   Nigel

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Re: Announcement of 48 hp Bullet
« Reply #54 on: January 27, 2011, 11:52:13 AM »
I think it was SB who said the used "Dump truck" bearings in the thing..

Correct - Dump truck rear wheel bearings! hahaha! It's the MOST drive side bearing that I have ever seen in an engine of that size. The engineers in India have never been taught the fine art of "just good enough" - nor would they embrace the concept, IMHO. They build the Enfield to last for three generations, I think! I believe that the Finite Element Analysis of that little engine pretty much proved that "all was good" up to around 60hp on it. I'll say from an eyewitness account of seeing one pop due to improper assembly that the rod is PLENTY strong ...... Of course if you were getting 60hp out of it, it wouldn't last for three generations ...... but I don't think you'd pop it either. Goodness knows that I sure tried LAST year to pop one ................... BO-O-O-O-ORING ........  ;)
Spare the pig iron - spoil the part!

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Re: Announcement of 48 hp Bullet
« Reply #55 on: January 27, 2011, 03:54:29 PM »
This write up on the UCE seems to allude to some significant  bottom end and connecting rod upgrades from the Iron Barrel.   So it might just be a matter of replacing the cams.  Nigel.    And I don't lightening  the flywheel is the way you want to go:   Like the BSA Goldstar, that would give you high rpm performance and power but at the cost of low rpm manners and the momentum that helps the Bullet power out of curves and slowly wind up acceleration in any gear.  Lighter fly.....more shifting and revving, and idling /starting problems .  i think most riders interested in this bike wuold  like strong pull from the bottom and middle, ower building up from the upper to middle range toward the redline:  If they wanted that, they would get a sport bike. .  ACEs type of mods can get the slowly winding up power without the loss of the engines defining characteristics.  


COPIED FROM A ROYAL ENFIELD SITE;
The advantages of unit construction are:

•fewer external oil lines to leak/fracture
•no external drive connecting engine and transmission, thus simplifying maintenance
•mounting in the frame is simpler - no need to align engine and transmission within frame
•the combined casting may be stronger or lighter - hence more easily used as a stressed member of the frame.
The chief disadvantage is that the engine and transmission have different lubrication requirements. In a design where the engine and transmission use a common oil supply, the oil used must take the requirements of both into account. (eg 1972 Ducati 750) Also the gearbox cannot be changed to that of another manufacturer. If different gears are required, they have to fit in the existing unit construction casting.

The chief advantage of separate construction is the ease of removing gearbox or engine separately for maintenance, or for complete gearbox replacement, with stronger gears, or more gears, or better spaced gears.
Another technology used in the bike is electronic fuel injection (EFI) which replaced the Lean-Burn Mikuni CV Carburetor engine. The EFI better controls the air-fuel mixture ratios at different speeds and riding conditions.


A better cooling alloy cylinder, stronger crankshaft and connecting rod, improved oiling and a host of other features are all part of the improved Royal Enfield UCE engine.


The UCE 500 EFI was originally unveiled at 2008 Motorcycle Shows in Cologne, Germany and Birmingham, England, although it took until a few years for the news units to hit the U.S. market.


The new model is more powerful, technically advanced and more environment friendly. Important to long time RE motorcycle enthusiasts, it also sport an authentic classic look that reflects original British motorcycle styling.


The old cast-iron engine which was heavy, less efficient, more space consuming and wasn't very efficient either. The new engine produces 27.5 bhp of power and 41.3 Nm of torque at just 4000 rpm.


The lazy nature and the lowly rpm at which the peak rpm is delivered makes for a very commuter friendly experience through slow moving traffic, with the bike pulling with aplomb in low revs and high gears.


The UCE powerplant is mated to a five-speed gearbox. The gearshifts are spongy and relatively trouble free for an RE. It could take time getting used to the power delivery and the gearshifts but once familiarized, this motorcycle engine won't let you down.


The engine feels substantially refined when compared with its predecessor and transmits just the right amount of vibration to the handlebars. All you need to reach a three-digit speeds is a full twist of the throttle.


As well, with the new UCE, Royal Enfield became the first motorcycle manufacturer in India to produce and sell a U.S. DOT and Euro-III compliant motorcycle.

************************************************************************************************
So it looks like a beefed up solid con rod and crankcase are already in place..  If the 600 sleeve also becomes availble that just kicks it up a notch, and maybe means that the port polishing wouldn't have to be perfect to get very good performance improvement , though that would remain an option .  Even the piston would only have to be coated   There is probably no advantage to try to get much over 600 cc without a counterbalancer   Nigel

Nigel,
Yes, the text reads well.
As long as the actual results meet the requirements, then all will be well.
I certainly don't want to have to change any more than necessary to get the job done properly.
But I've also been building performance engines for 38 years, and I know that nothing is "in the bag" until it is proven-out in the actual application.

So, I"m optimistically inclined about the ideas, and I think things can be done with it.
I've never seen an engine yet which couldn't be "perked-up" with some well-thought-out modifications.

If the demand for such modifications really does turn out to be strong, then alot could be done with it. What really "drives" this sort of thing is the demand for it.
There's literally "tons" of demand for things like this with Harley Davidsons, and as a result there are innumerable people doing all kinds of things for them. The aftermarket is FULL of stuff that people can buy for HD. And that is precisely because there are millions of people wanting to do stuff to it.
That kind of demand stimulates entrepreneurs to develop things to fill that demand. And the same would be true if we see alot of demand from the UCE market.
And that would create the ability to do things in mass production, and it all works to make an arrangement for the consumer to get the best products at the most reasonable prices. Without sufficient demand, the whole house of cards doesn't work, and it's then a custom market.
So really, it's all on the consumer demand to make things like this happen to their best advantage.
And threads like this one start the process, so if there is some unseen demand for this kind of thing, we can see it.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2011, 04:14:20 PM by ace.cafe »
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head . Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available .  AVL mods. Redditch 700/750 Twin mods. UCE kit soon.

Please visit my new website:
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AcePerformanceBullets/info

Re: Announcement of 48 hp Bullet
« Reply #56 on: January 27, 2011, 07:11:08 PM »
Well , my thanks to ACE and all other's who have contributed to this thread.  I don't have anything else intelligent to say about it (assuming I ever did)  .  It is a privellige as a "neophyte" to communicate with ACE, Chumma (and vicariously Aniket) , Scooter Bob  and other Enfield "Royalty"  .   I think the idea is squarely out there.  To date 505 people have dropped into this thread (less a few repeat visitors).  Folks, these bikes are seriously great  The modification potential is very significant.  The uniqueness is simply not avaiable with any other brand. These bikes are seriously built and  poised to go big.  Get out and see one.  Ride one.  Dream.   Plan your upgrade path. Be an indivuidual and stand out from the crowd with something built to last of metal  that is both currently relevant and an historic icon and looks cool.  .
.  The collective experience and wisdom expressed in this thread by all the contributors that know what they are talking about is of great value........Other people pay big bucks to learn what you are being told here for free.: An education in realistic engine performance enhancement.  I know I have learned a lot. 
If you are a "lurker" don't be shy.  I know diddly about mechanics but I love good products and good ideas.None of the esperts on this thread have treated any of my questions as silly.  A great group, with great respect and lots of spirit. 
 So drop a one liner to say "I like that idea" or I was thinking about RE but worried about the lower power number".  Or even," Now that I know this can be done down the line, that helps me make up my mind about what to buy."  Or whatever you feel like saying .These bikes are not "cheap":  they are sturdy, durable and priced to what they are.  Nobody is paying me to say any of this.   And that's all I've got to say (for this thread anyway)   Nigel

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Re: Announcement of 48 hp Bullet
« Reply #57 on: January 27, 2011, 08:21:22 PM »
For the record, A bone stock UCE is a darn fine motorcycle, and doesn't need any performance mods to be thoroughly enjoyed ;)
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Re: Announcement of 48 hp Bullet
« Reply #58 on: January 28, 2011, 01:46:05 AM »
 Whelp, that was an EXCELLENT discusion guys. I thoroughly enjoyed it.Well done. Pushing the envelope  on these motor's  is inevitable, as these UCE bikes become more popular and wide spread, as they most certainly will be with the model line up in the next few years. All this does have me thinking. But as stated, it will take someone who REally knows these motors, has the time and facilities to do it.  And there's probably only a couple here in the states  ;) So get to work boy's, so that when the demand is here, it's ready to roll out  :D   GREAT  STUFF !
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