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Author Topic: An alarming knocking  (Read 2239 times)

Ducati Scotty

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Re: An alarming knocking
« Reply #30 on: August 22, 2011, 11:15:24 PM »
Will, if I were you I'd push a little longer on getting a phone call or an e-mail to a higher up at Watsonian, get your gripe heard.  If that fails, check with the local mechanic and then dig in!  Truth be told, it's a shame to waste the warranty but if it's that frustrating to get it honored I'm sure you'd be fine spending some time and maybe a few quid on parts to get her running right again.  Good bikes are like that, you don't mind putting in the time because they reward you when they're healthy again.  And it sounds like taking it apart and fixing it might just be the cathatrsis you need to put this bad juju behind you.

And you've got another bike to ride in the meantime, so you can ride you Kawi while you and your RE seek the satisfaction that only comes from grease firmly embedded under your fingernails and the thump-thump of a well sorted engine.

Show as much patience as you can with the warranty, then do what you need to do.  We're here to support you either way, we share the passion.

Scott

WillW

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Re: An alarming knocking
« Reply #31 on: August 23, 2011, 03:03:30 PM »
Thanks Scott. I appreciate it.
I'll update as & when there's progress. Other work to do in the meantime...
2010 Royal Enfield Electra (G5) DL

2004 Kawasaki W650
~ the best british bike they never made ~

drbvac

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Re: An alarming knocking
« Reply #32 on: August 23, 2011, 07:39:58 PM »
Especially if another mechanic actually finds the problem and fixes it - make sure he takes lots of pictures if you go that route.
Dr B

SSR

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Re: An alarming knocking
« Reply #33 on: September 02, 2011, 06:47:06 PM »
@Will- My opinion on your engine noise from my experience, it may help.

There are very few things in UCE which can make noise as per your bike at present condition. I'll try to explain so you can go step by step to find it yourself the source of the noise.

1. Lets start with Hydraulic lifters- If there is any problem with the lifters, usually you will loose compression or you will have starting/running problem. In your case you have none. To simply check if you have any problem with them, take off the rocker cover and try to rotate the push rods. If you find any play then you have a lead.

2. You can also loosen up the rockers and remove the push rods to inspect their ends. Highly unlikely  that you will find anything wrong with the push rods or hydraulic lifters.

Anyways I know your noise is in the bottom half so I wont clarify above two more then required.

3. Big end/ con rod bearing- If that had gone bad then you will hear piston slap of abnormal proportions and you will easily identify it as it increases with load and even on idle, you will find it hard to cover your face at traffic lights. You will get undivided attention.  I rode more then 1K miles with a blown big end and it could have done more so don't worry if you think you might get stranded in middle of the road. But i'll still say it's over built and one in a 100 chance of failure rate.

4. OIl pump- When you remove the rocker cover, crank the engine with plug leads off for more then 5 seconds and if you see the oil spewing out of the rocker dowel then eliminate that too.

My suspicion is on the crank RHS NRB or the cams.

5. Cams- Usually on a UCE if the sleeve of the cam gets worn out and the cam develops more then required lash then it produces a howling knock/grinding kind of noise. I don't think you have that either. But you would know more as my ability to hear your source of noise is as good as your recording equipment.

6. If cams develops marks on it's lobe from the hydraulic lifter roller then again you would know after having a look at it.

You do not need any special tools to remove the cam on a UCE. All you need to do is remove the rotor on the crank shaft and the plate with three 5 size allen key bolts to access the cams for removal. Although you can make your life easy if you loosen up the rockers so you won't need to panic when lifters will jam on the cam shaft after you remove the cams.

If I can remove the cams without any proper tools. I am sure you can do better.

7. Before you are done with probing the cams for any wear/ issues, just do one simple test to eliminate the crank shaft NRB as this is one thing which will require a strip down of the engine.

After you have removed the cams, hold the RHS crank shaft tip and move it up/down with a bit of pressure. Feel for any play, I mean literally any jitter and if you sense any play in the shaft then you have found your source of noise. If you are unfortunate enough to find the play then all you can do is strip down and replace the NRB and it will go again in near future unless you can source a German NRB bearing for the replacement which RE is trying so hard to source but the Germans(INA make) are not interested to supply them with only few k's per month. I tried sourcing from FAG but they wont sell me just one piece. Don't even go near a SKF thats what we have now.

8. If the crank shaft has no play then you can still try one more thing. Remove the head/barrel, hold the con rod and push/pull  up/down to feel any play in the big end. There is a wee bit of play of con rod sideways and thats totally company specs so dont bother with that but if you feel any up/down play then you would need a new crank. It wont take more then 1 hr to remove the head/barrel and replace it back so you can DIY.

So to sum up there are only three main areas you should look for the noise issue.

1. Start with cams
2. Crank shaft NRB
3. BIg end

For all these you dont need to strip you engine just for the diagnostic. Trust me with the simple methods I have explained to find the culprit, specially with the crank shaft NRB. When I had the same issue twice, I had challenged the UCE R&D head along with the two RE engineers to trace the issue within 24hrs and after spending the whole day playing with the engine they were silent. Only to hear from me that I know what was the issue and I will only tell them after they replace the crank/barrel/piston. Eventually I told them and after one whole year they want to replace the NRB on production bikes.

If you need any more clarification then let me know.

Desi Bike

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Re: An alarming knocking
« Reply #34 on: September 02, 2011, 07:36:44 PM »
I think I'll hire you as my personal mechanic when you move here ssr.  :)
میں نہیں چاہتا کہ ایک اچار
میں صرف اپنی موٹر سائیکل پر سوار کرنا چاہتے ہیں

Ducati Scotty

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Re: An alarming knocking
« Reply #35 on: September 02, 2011, 08:02:48 PM »
+1.

WillW

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Re: An alarming knocking
« Reply #36 on: September 02, 2011, 08:23:18 PM »
SSR - how can I thank you. You've gone to extraordinary trouble. I've printed your post so I can keep it in the garage when I get busy with the spanners.
You've provided a lot of detailed diagnostic information which really gives me something to work with. I very much appreciate it.
I spoke to someone at Watsonian Squire today, who asked me to send a photo of the latest lot of metal filings on the magnets. I'm also putting some miles on the bike before checking the oil again for metal filings.
The general feeling among those who've heard the engine is that the noise is to do with the tappets. I agree, but of course I'm alert now for any change or increase in the racket, and starting to think I'm hearing all sorts of more sinister underlying noises as well. I hope not, but there's been a lot of metal dust circulating round this engine, goodness knows how much premature wear & tear has been caused.
So I'll send the photos to WS, and I'll speak to them on the phone next week to see what they say. I'm holding out on any major dismantling until then, although I have already checked for oil squirting as it should under the rocker covers and everything was ok there.
I was told this morning by WS to ride the bike as normal, so I'm doing so. Performance is unaffected, and with earplugs in the grin is as large as ever it was.
Thanks so much for your post, it's really helpful. Of course I'll keep you updated.
Will
2010 Royal Enfield Electra (G5) DL

2004 Kawasaki W650
~ the best british bike they never made ~

SSR

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Re: An alarming knocking
« Reply #37 on: September 06, 2011, 04:28:16 PM »
I think I'll hire you as my personal mechanic when you move here ssr.  :)

Cheeky lad hey! :D


@Will- not every thing inside is made up of iron so think a bit to what can be which is getting stuck to the magnet!! I highly doubt the dealer can make out from the pictures. Can you check the compression and let us know?
Procedure;
Warm up the engine just for couple of minutes
Take off the plug leads
Take off the fatty plug and screw in the compression meter
Hold the throttle at WOT and crank 3-5 times until the needle on comp meter stops climbing
Repeat three times and take the average

Anything above 100 to 145 Psi is good sign. Although RE says to de- carbonize if above 110Psi and mine is always 140Psi

Ducati Scotty

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Re: An alarming knocking
« Reply #38 on: September 06, 2011, 05:24:45 PM »
Mine was around 140 too.  I wonder if it's supposed to be 110 with the auto-decompressor but maybe the starter is spinning fast enough that it disengages?  The manual also says that the charging voltage running the engine at speed should be 12.4-13.2V.  Every other vehicle I've known expects around 14-14.5V, which is also where the RE falls on a good day.

Scott

WillW

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Re: An alarming knocking
« Reply #39 on: September 06, 2011, 05:49:15 PM »
A compression tester is yet another thing I haven't got. Had one once, but there was a lot of moving about before I anchored in Devon and very little of what I once had made it here with me ......
I'm guessing the compression would be ok, since the bike's performance doesn't seem diminished (apart from having the stock silencer refitted!)

I did speak to the head man at Watsonian today, told him the story and emailed him the pics. Hopefully we'll speak again by the end of the week. He's been away so this has been delayed from last week. It'll be interesting to have an opinion from WS.

Busy spell at work is keeping me from much else until after the weekend, and foul weather is keeping me off the road. The stethoscope arrived today so I'll have another go at locating the racket with a bit more precision.
2010 Royal Enfield Electra (G5) DL

2004 Kawasaki W650
~ the best british bike they never made ~

SSR

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Re: An alarming knocking
« Reply #40 on: September 06, 2011, 06:42:05 PM »
Mine was around 140 too.  I wonder if it's supposed to be 110 with the auto-decompressor but maybe the starter is spinning fast enough that it disengages?  The manual also says that the charging voltage running the engine at speed should be 12.4-13.2V.  Every other vehicle I've known expects around 14-14.5V, which is also where the RE falls on a good day.

Scott

You can try with the kick too and still get the same result. On a cold engine you will get less for sure. Without the de-comp it will touch around 170. Hey come on Scot do you really think a 500 with 90 stroke can really run well with just 100Psi :D

Don't worry about the electrical it does puts 14,2 but only when really needed(high beam)and not all the time. This way it puts less load on the engine as magneto drains out wee bit of power when under full load.

@Will- The reason I asked about the compression test was due to the fact that if you had any big end problem then you are bound of have a damaged block/piston and any sign compression loss will give a indication.  just keep us posted
« Last Edit: September 06, 2011, 06:45:34 PM by SSR »

Ducati Scotty

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Re: An alarming knocking
« Reply #41 on: September 06, 2011, 07:48:50 PM »
You can try with the kick too and still get the same result.

"Kick?!?  What's that?", says the 2010 C5 owner.  ;)

Yeah, 100 seemed low to me too.  Thanks for confirming that 140 is 'normal' even with a kicker.  They also say 11.5V on the battery unloaded is ok.  In my book, that's a battery in need of charging or on its way out.

Scott

singhg5

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Re: An alarming knocking
« Reply #42 on: September 07, 2011, 01:56:12 AM »
They also say 11.5V on the battery unloaded is ok.  In my book, that's a battery in need of charging or on its way out.

@Scott - My G5 does not start by button if battery is below 12.4V and needs a kick ! So for me a battery below 12.4 is as good as 'dead'.

Now, go back to thread.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2011, 02:17:28 AM by singhg5 »
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Maturin

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Re: An alarming knocking
« Reply #43 on: September 07, 2011, 06:09:08 PM »
Big thanks, SSR, for this detailed trouble shooting. I printed it and now it adorns my service manual, whose descriptions are not half as clear. Cheers!
2010 G5
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SSR

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Re: An alarming knocking
« Reply #44 on: September 08, 2011, 11:56:51 AM »
Big thanks, SSR, for this detailed trouble shooting. I printed it and now it adorns my service manual, whose descriptions are not half as clear. Cheers!

No problemo..