2003 ES - Stalling / Help !

[rxr2012]

Hello all !

Just picked up a 2003 ES,  loosing out power climbing even a small hill.
Have not done the basics yet -oil change, clutch adjustment / plugs.
Any help on where to start will be helpful., thanks in advance.

[barenekd]

We need a lot more info than that. How has it been running before? Did you ride it previous to buying it? How long has it been sitting? The immediate things to check are the the air cleaner and put fresh gas in it, if you haven't done that yet. An oils change and clutch aren't going to make it run better. Could check the plug and see how it looks,as i worn out or fouled. Look at thepoints and see if they are oening wide enough. Should be about .012"
I would guess from the lack info that you have offered hat the points may be closed up and your timing retarded.
Bare

[rxr2012]

thanks,

Been sitting for a while.. 2003 with 880 miles on it., was purchased in Oct 2003 .
Starts on a single kick, compression is sound, revs good on the stand., not so well on the road.

Ride home from the seller was about 30 miles, not so fun, I was stalling the traffic behind me, back roads of course.

the  plan is to ,

1. Swap Oil out. - Engine and Trans
2. Clean or Replace Plugs.
3. Clean Carbs.
4. Adjust Clutch and Check the points.

Other than this, taking all inputs to make it breathe better.
Jetting options / ClutchPlates / HeadMods - any.

Btw - where can i get the oil filters quick enough than nFieldGear.

[ace.cafe]

Free flow exhaust.
Free flow air filter.
Re-jet the carb richer all around.
Set the idle when it's warm, not cold.
Make sure all the intake rubber hoses, especially the manifold hose, is not leaking or have holes. Very common problem.

Don't touch the head. The ports are already too big.

If you want performance, then ask about what to do, before you do it.
We've already been thru all the mistakes.

[rxr2012]

Thanks barenekd and ace. Picking up an oil filter from a local shop today.
Will keep you posted, let me get to the basics first.

Ace - i've been reading a little on the 535 mods and the kit, tempting.

- - any recommendations on Oil / Plugs / what to stay away from.
- - do i need any special tools., must have's.
- - Shell Rotella 20/40 Full Synthetic - is this a good option.

[ace.cafe]

Thanks barenekd and ace. Picking up an oil filter from a local shop today.
Will keep you posted, let me get to the basics first.

Ace - i've been reading a little on the 535 mods and the kit, tempting.

- - any recommendations on Oil / Plugs / what to stay away from.
- - do i need any special tools., must have's.
- - Shell Rotella 20/40 Full Synthetic - is this a good option.

I would wait until at least 1500miles before switching to synthetic.
Do it on your next oil change.

Most all tools you need for normal maintenance are in the factory tool kit, or in your normal toolbox.. You really don't need anything special unless you are going to go pretty deep into the engine or gearbox.

I use the BR9ES NGK, or B9ES, and they always work nice, IMO.

For the performance stuff, just ask me when you are ready. It's very important to leave the head stock until you are ready to have it ported professionally. We can't port the head properly if some material was removed that we needed to be there.

I work with NField Gear for some of the parts we use, and I also make the critical performance parts, and do the precision machine work.

[single]

 Shell is ok,I have used it,but a motorcycle specific oil is better,being formulated for an air cooled engine,a zddp enhancement is a good idea.STP has zddp in it,I use 1/2 container per oil change.Answers to all questions are in previous threads here.If you go back thru a couple of years and study them you will have a good idea of the care and feeding needs.They are many.Have a good ride.

[rxr2012]

thanks ACE., looking at google maps you are not that far from north GA. , that is when i am ready for the perf stuff. Not much time to work on it yesterday, hopefully will get something going today.

My other motorcycle is a FZ1- Gen1, i have been with Rotella 20-40FullSyn, abt 20+change at wally, i have had a good 28k miles on it so far, no slipping or dragging.

thanks Single - i will learn to search more ;(, only getting started here.
thanks again !

[mleo]

Valve clearance to tight?

[rxr2012]

>> Engine Oil Changed 20/50 valvoline.
>> BR9ES Plug at .5mm gap.
>> Clutch Case - ATF changed.( Castrol ATF)
>> Clutch Chain Slack Adjusted.
>> K&N Air Filter - removed the Stock can.
>> Carbs Cleaned - Air Screw at 1.5 turns out, Idle at 6.,
needle at full rich, if you hold it up, C-clip on lowest position.
>> Timing - Full Advance ( it was in the Middle earlier ), point gap set.
-- been thru the timing like 10 times now and full advance seems to keep
it away from missing.


Issues.
1. Same clutch drag still exists, does not even climb a small hill ;(
2. See a lot of smoke thru exhaust - only when i rev it up.
3. Plugs - dark and see some oil in there.
4. Noticed Oil from the de-compression plug area.


Where do i go from here, pls help.

Thanks

[The Garbone]

Clutch drag or slip.   I think it would be slip if it will not climb a hill.

Is this a 5 speed or 4 speed as I think the 65 was the 5spd version.

The 4 speed clutch basket has one fewer plate than the 5spd and is a bit more finicky to adjust out slip and drag.      On my 4spd I had to adjust it on the bar for the first few 100 miles as the cable would stretch.  I would start out fine and then get drag later on as it stretched.   The cable  eventually settled down and all was good but the adjustment was one or two turns of the ferrel on the lever, its just that sensitive with the 4 speed.    Other things I did with both my bikes it install barnett clutch plates and 3 heavy duty springs.   Neither ever slip and my 4spd pulls a hack.  I run ATF-F as it has friction modifiers.

Sounds like you might need to tweak your jetting and neddle.   Sounds like your running rich but that is just a guess.   Is the smoke white or black.   White smoke might be condensation blowing out when the engine is first started and warming up.   

About the oil oozing,  you might want to pull the tank and rocker covers and retorque the head bolts ( suggested to be done 1000 miles or so) to 20lbs.   

Don't frett too much,  the bike is not really broke in yet and won't be till about 1500 or 2000 miles,  the transmission in particular.     

[rxr2012]

Its a 4SPD, filled with Castrol Type F - ATF.
The smoke's black, getting more oil in there is what i am thinking.

Any recommendations on the carb - richness, the jets are stock.
Plan to change them to 27.5 / 127.5.

Will post some pictures shortly.

[Blltrdr]

I would say you have multiple problems.

I'm not sure if I understand your timing setting. What did you mean by full advance, in the middle earlier?

Not a good sign if you have oil coming out of your decompressor and smoke coming out the pipe.
Does the smoke subside after it has been running for a while?
What color is the smoke?
Do you have plenty of compression when kicking it over? If not you might try removing your spark plug and squirt some oil into the cylinder. Also try rotating your decompressor. This might clean off whatever is keeping it from sealing. Now see if your compression seems different. Did you check your valve settings as someone previously asked?  Maybe run some SeaFoam in your gas 1 can treats 3 tank fills. This might help clean up the deposits you most likely have on piston top and combustion chamber.

With the amount of miles you state are on this bike it is very possible it wasn't broken in properly. If the previous owner didn't do the proper break in your motor could be toast with 800+ miles on it. This is not unusual, especially for people who are used to modern bikes and who hate reading manuals. Let's hope I'm incorrect! It takes about 1500 miles to properly break in a Bullet which starts out with a laborous and somewhat exhaustive slow speed break in period.

Your clutch slips. What adjustments did you do to the clutch other than change the oil? I would suspect your throwout adjustment is off.

Do you have manuals? How much knowledge would you say you have when it comes to the maintenance procedures? There is a lot to learn if you haven't already done so. They are a simple bike to work on in old school speak but it does take some time to figure out the maintenance/adjustments and peculiarities. There are plenty of knowledgeable Bullet owners on this forum that will take the time to help you work through your problems.

I would methodically go through the bike top to bottom.
 

[rxr2012]

Changed another plug, starts on the first kick and idles well.
Smoke's gone after the first few minutes., used to be black now its more white.
Plenty of compression kicking it in.
Tappet to the left had a little play adjusted that.

Clutch adjustment done so far,
1. Tightened chain slack inside clutch case.
2. Adjusted the clutch cable by the gear box, atleast 4 times and none of
the settings helped.

Another thing noticed is, its chokes on throttle on the road - but fine on the center stand.

I have the manuals. thanks for the seafoam idea, i am going to drain the tank first and fill with higher octane and the seafoam.

Here the next plan - unless you guys suggest otherwise,

1. Drain gas / SeaFoam and 93 Octane.
2. Ordered the jets. - 27.5 and 127.5
3. as Garbone suggested - re-torque the valves.
4. Clutch Adjustment ? - what else to do.
Do i need to swap out clutch plates, or there any other
adjustments other than the lock nut in the gear box.

5. Change - GEAr grease?

thanks in advance

[rxr2012]

Here are some pictures.



Fouled Plug, after 2 mile run.


Points - Top Screw(B) was in the middle, current setup


Decompression Oil Leak


K&N Filter.

[The Garbone]

As to the ooze on the decomp I don't know.  Could be the PO spritzed it to keep it from rusting or to hide rust or the its trickling down from rocker box gasket.   Another source could be a porous casting in the causing it to leak.   

I was suggesting retorqing the head bolt not to really do anything for the valve clearance but to keep from getting a future leak from between the barrel and head. 

As to clutch adjustment I would let as much slack out of the cable and lever ferrel.  Open the inspection plate on the side of the trans above the kicker and turn out the screw a bit.   Now Screw that adjustment screw back in until it just touches the actuator rod enough so there is no play in the assembly and then back it off just a hair.    Close up the inspection plate and adjust adjust out most of the play in the cable at the midpoint adjuster and use the ferrel on the lever for fine adjustments. 

Also note your bike is still Left hand shift and that is just a bodge.  Conversion to right hand shift make for a 100% better shifting bike.

[Blltrdr]

Your photo shows the points plate turned all the way to the right (retarded). How did you arrive at this setting? What does your exhaust note sound like? Is it flat sounding? You probably need more timing advance. Do you know how to ping time?

You have to try to seat your decompressor. Manually rotate the decomp valve. Something is keeping it from seating fully. If you cant get it to seat you will have to remove it to see what is causing the problem.

How did you adjust your clutch? Check clutch pack. Metal plates should be flat with no warps. Friction plates can be upgraded to Barnett or Hitchcock's Surflex. Check your friction plates for wear and clean with kerosene before installing. Make sure you take note of the clutch pack plate order before you separate plates for cleaning and inspection.

I would suggest a RS shift kit and also the installation of a sealed bearing kit from Hitchcock's so you can run gear oil instead of the Veedol grease. You will find your 4 spd will shift beautifully after the change.

[rxr2012]

Thanks Garbone and Blltrdr,

Gear Box side clutch adjustment, already tried out and did not solve the issue, going to check the clutch pack, i hope its as easy to put it back as to take it off, little hesitant.

Blltrdr - changed the timing back to be in the middle, air screw 1.5 out, ping time ?

Is there a way to check if the Breather is working correctly ?

Manual says..
"If the breather is not acting efficiently it may cause pressure in the crankcase
instead of partial vacuum, giving rise to smoking or oiling of the plug."[/b]

It looks like, its not going to be a quick fix, I am glad to be hear talking about all of this.
Thanks again for the pointers.

First goal will be to get it to run,  take it to at least 60-75mph, so i can get it out
beyond the subdivision roads , actually if i can't fix it, will enjoy that idle in the driveway!! love the thumper !

[Arizoni]

Mention was made about "tappet to the left had a little play. Adjusted that."

Both tappets should have a little "play" when the piston is at the top of its compression stroke.  I believe the value is about .015 inch (0.40mm).

If the tappets are adjusted so that there is no looseness to the push rods the engine will rapidly burn its valves and the valve seats.

I agree that the timing plate position shown in the photo is almost fully retarded.
This will cause poor idling, poor fuel economy, poor power and possibly a burned exhaust valve.
Then, the position of the timing plate and what is actually happening depends greatly on the ignition points being set with the correct gap when the points are fully open.
This gap should be .014-.016 inch (.35-.40mm).
The ignition points should loose contact exactly when the piston is .031 inches (0.8mm) from reaching the top of its compression stroke.

This can only be determined by removing the spark plug and observing the piston as it is rising.

Personally, I'm not a believer in the Ping method of adjusting ignition timing.
Each "Ping" is like a sledge hammer whacking the top of the piston and it doesn't take many whacks before something will break.

[Blltrdr]

I would not contemplate taking your bike out and riding it at the speeds you listed. You can not run these bikes at high speed for long periods. You have to very the throttle at high speeds to keep the temp down. Your Bullet motor isn't fully broke in yet so I would read over your manual and find out where your bike is in the break in period. I would also be cautious if you don't know the history of how the PO treated the bike in it's early stages. I also would take it easy until you get all the adjustments worked out. I spent many hours reading my manuals and learning to make all necessary adjustments. Familiarity is key to success when it comes to Bullet ownership. Many people by the Bullet because of it's cool retro looks but end up parking or selling it soon after because they can never get it to run well. Most likely the reason you ended up with your bike with so few miles on it. Learn, Maintain, Ride = BIG SMILE

[rxr2012]

Arizoni - thanks, ordering the TDC finder tool
Will check tappets again, the move freely, but no gap at all, that's what i did.

Blltdr - i don't plan on twisting that throttle yet., lets see where we get in the week(s) to come. Worst case if ACE has the time, i can haul it there.

Any ideas on the Breather Valve Check ?, noticing the breather pipes looks cracked,
oil around the electrical ( the left side box next to batter ), the stock air filter was loaded with oil, before the K&N swap.

Work week and back to the madness.., looking at the map and sending some PM's to the local REO's as well

I still have the FZ1 for the twisties..

[Blltrdr]

If your hose to your catch can under the battery is cracked you will need to replace it. I would buy the replacement hose from our host that has the duckbill on the end. You will then bypass your catch can and route it over to your chain. I'm not sure if your catch can has a duckbill inside it but most likely does so if you open it up and it does have one you can attach it to a piece of tubing with a splice fitting and run it to the chain as an oiler or run it out the back behind the rear fender like many here do. There are many postings on the breather if you do a forum search. In fact many of your questions can be answered using the forum search engine.

[ace.cafe]

. Worst case if ACE has the time, i can haul it there.

Just FYI, I don't have a repair shop.
I build performance engines at Mondello's.
Repairs are for the owners to do.

[rxr2012]

Thanks ACE, assumed you had a shop

Planning to take the head off and de-carbonize, waiting for  the compression gauge before that. Today's plan will be to get the clutch pack off and look for any
issues.

[Blltrdr]

Thanks ACE, assumed you had a shop

Planning to take the head off and de-carbonize, waiting for  the compression gauge before that. Today's plan will be to get the clutch pack off and look for any
issues.

Here is a technical write up from Hitchcock's website that might come in handy.

http://www.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/pictures/content9/decoke_your_bullet.pdf

I would check the action of the clutch plates as you operate your clutch lever with the primary cover off. The problem could be the adjustment at the gearbox. You have to take the tension off the adjuster at the lever before you make your adjustment at the gearbox. Screw the clutch rod adjuster screw in till it bottoms out then back of about a 1/4 turn then tighten lock nut and then adjust at the lever.

If you decide to take the clutch apart make sure that you don't loose the ball bearing between the clutch rods and clutch rod pad. It is easy to loose when taking things apart. Put a towel on the floor on whichever side you decide to push the rods out just in case you can't catch the bearing in your hand the towel should catch it or slow it down. It took me an hour to track mine down on the garage floor the first time I removed mine.

[rxr2012]

Blltrdr - thanks again, that's a fantastic write up to have.

Just ordered the Clutch Pad with Bearing / Barnet Clutch and Heavy Duty springs,  from NFieldGear. My clutch lever does not have any adjusters on it, PO probably got rid of it, will use the mid adjuster to see if I can
loosen to get play and then adjust at the gear box.

One of the first things i did was buying a 18x26 shop tray, so i don't miss any parts, thanks for the heads up.

[rxr2012]

Waiting.. on parts from Nfield., Will post on compression soon, picked up a compresion guage , a electronic vernier calliper , no time to work on it, the last few days.

I've been reading a bit.

Snidal in one of his older sites, has a "Clutch Flush" technique, kerosene in the primary, going to try that as well.

another topic...Pouring into the details on the Fireball, what ACE ,Mondello, Chumma have got going will put RE into many more years to come, then you have Aniket and his Twin, another different machine all together. , keep at it guys.

It will be good to have some "stickies" on this forum, for some of the basics.

[rxr2012]

Cold Compression Test :

Got the tank off, plug off, connected the gauge, did not heat up the engine.. must have.
06 tests x  about 5-6 kicks each - full throttle, averages around 105-110 PSI.
I am thinking the compression's plenty, unless you all have other comments.


Nfield did not ship, they were waiting on compression springs.. which are 03 weeks
behind, should have called just after the order.. 04 days.. gone.. ! ;(

[ace.cafe]

Compression is healthy for a stock engine.

[rxr2012]

Thanks ACE - feels better, getting started now.

Tried to remove the rocker covers yesterday, to re-torque the valves, but could not get the covers off, they were too stuck. Going to flush the clutch case with Kerosene.
Will post soon.

[rxr2012]

Alright.. golden yellow gas, drained., petcock was messed up, dismantled and cleaned.
Soaking the clutch case with Kerosene, to drain and fill ATF tomorrow.

Still waiting on parts from Nfield. Enjoy the game sunday, if I am don't get to work on it again.. cheers. Having a digital calliper helps, if anyone is looking to buy one..


http://www.amazon.com/Neiko-Stainless-Digital-Caliper-Extra-Large/dp/B000GSLKIW/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1328325027&sr=8-1

Compression tester :
http://www.amazon.com/Equus-3612-Innova-Compression-Tester/dp/B000EVU89I/ref=sr_1_26?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1328325121&sr=1-26

02 weeks later she is still in the garage..

 

[Ice]

Your Bullet should likely have the old style flat cap oil filler/dip stick of the twist and click variety as opposed to the later style screw in oil filler/dip stick 

It will have two positions. The first stop or click is for normal ( vented)  and the second is full closed ( sealed/storage).

 Be sure to use the first stop ( vented)for normal operation as using the second (storage) will lead to filling the catch can and premature oil loss.

[rxr2012]

Ice - thanks for that.. it was on the second click. all the simple things..

[rxr2012]

ok - rode about 75 miles today.

Seafoam + 93 Octane + Needle at Richest Setting + AirScrew 0.75 turns out + CHOKE ON all the time, runs like a charm. , no missing, can climb up to 55 to 60mph easily.

It just wasn't getting enough gas.

The fuel line check - 60 secs filled about 200-250ML.
The clutch is still not that great, took off the plates, sanded the friction plates and
put it back on. I could not tighten the compression spring bolts to 7LBS, my torque
wrench's lowest setting is 10 LBS. Gears are lot more stickier than they used to be.
I think i have the clutch housing too tight.

Jets and friction plate ordered are still on its way.

[rxr2012]

Update..

Here's what has changed since..
>> Tried the K&N + VM28 with 145 Main, P2Needle + Stock Pilot.
>> Dailed it in where it was getting upto 50-55, downhill 65 some times..but not too long there.

Talked to few of you here and then things changed.. it now has the following,

ACE Air Can - fantastic fit, now i know why you can't get it in chrome !
ACE Manifold - i will post some pics.. talk about ACE Engg quality !!
Barnett Clutch Plates - a must have..,  + Mobil1 Syn ATF.
Clutch Pad with Bearing. - clutch's a lot smoother with this one..
FLAT TM32 Mikuni, ( 250 Main, 45 Pilot, Jet Needle - FP17, Needle Jet -389.) stock
as is came.
Timing Full Advance and 0.8 BTDC firing checked.

Sounds like a rocket.. , with the Goldstar pipe.
Still not where it needs to be, waiting on ace.cafe  - recommended jets for
this carb.

Will keep you posted, as it comes..
thanks for your support !

[ace.cafe]

Way too rich.
Needs the re-jet to proper jet sizes.
Will run like crap with those jets.