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Author Topic: Clutch plates  (Read 2323 times)

mrunderhill1975a

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Clutch plates
« on: September 26, 2012, 02:38:15 AM »
I just purchased a pricey clutch from a well known supplier.  The clutch arrived fully assembled including the center, basket, steel plates and friction discs.  However as I was assembling the unit I noticed they had not given me two dished steel plates, they substituted a flat plate for one dished plate.  The steel plate nearest the gearbox was a flat plate instead of a "dished" plate with a raised center.  On further examination, all the friction plates were the 23 "cell" type rather than one 23 "cell" and three 4 "cell" plates.

Is the flat plate nearest to the gearbox going to cause me a problem?  Is there a reason the friction discs should vary in the number of friction "cells"?

Blltrdr

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Re: Clutch plates
« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2012, 04:05:15 AM »
It sounds like a 5 speed clutch pack. The 5 speed pack is heavily segmented on all friction plates. Yes you need two dished metal plates. Hitchcock's sells a heavy segmented friction disk (4 spd pack) that I am running on my 5 speed. The stock 5 spd clutch pack is the upgrade for the stock 4 speed pack.
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AgentX

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Re: Clutch plates
« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2012, 05:42:17 AM »
No, you don't need a rear dished plate.  I have the same clutch pack on my 5spd.  As long as the rearmost steel plate engages the splines on the clutch hub, you're fine.

I was concerned about it, too, but the dealer showed me that it's how they come from the factory.

Blltrdr

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Re: Clutch plates
« Reply #3 on: September 28, 2012, 06:45:13 AM »
No, you don't need a rear dished plate.  I have the same clutch pack on my 5spd.  As long as the rearmost steel plate engages the splines on the clutch hub, you're fine.

I was concerned about it, too, but the dealer showed me that it's how they come from the factory.

When did they change the design? Where did you buy your clutch pack? Never seen a factory clutch pack without the dished plates before. Who is the dealer you refer to? Surely don't want to lead someone down the wrong path. Please substantiate your claim with more info for the members here.
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AgentX

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Re: Clutch plates
« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2012, 07:43:17 AM »
When did they change the design? Where did you buy your clutch pack? Never seen a factory clutch pack without the dished plates before. Who is the dealer you refer to? Surely don't want to lead someone down the wrong path. Please substantiate your claim with more info for the members here.

Royal Enfield dealer in Secunderabad, Hyderabad.  Parts guy's name is Siva.  Call 'em.  I can't vouch for him being correct, of course.  Nor am I an expert in when and how RE has changed designs.  But I know what I see, and it's a flat rear plate which fully engages the splines on my particular clutch hub.

Been running it just fine, but hey, if you wanna find a dished plate, be my guest.

mrunderhill1975a

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Re: Clutch plates
« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2012, 10:43:01 PM »
Secunderabad, Hyderabad????
Those are the "Twin Cities" of India in the Pesware Province, are they not?

I purchased my clutch with the flat innermost plate from a well know supplier that rhymes with Menfieldgear.   

The flat plate creeped me out, so I substituted a spare dished plate for the flat one.  The clutch has been slipping a bit, so I may try the flat plate if the slipping does not resolve itself soon.

AgentX

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Re: Clutch plates
« Reply #6 on: September 29, 2012, 01:06:41 AM »
It's in Andhra Pradesh, but yup, India.

Peshawar is in Pakistan on that side of the Khyber Pass.  Don't ask me how I know...

There is an unrelated Hyderabad in Pakistan, as well.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2012, 01:44:10 AM by AgentX »

ace.cafe

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Re: Clutch plates
« Reply #7 on: September 29, 2012, 01:18:27 AM »
IMO, if you don't have the dished plate in the innermost position, then it cannot contact the friction material riveted to the clutch basket, and thus you are lacking contact on half of that innermost metal plate.

I have never seen any Bullet clutch that didn't have dished plates inner and outer.
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AgentX

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Re: Clutch plates
« Reply #8 on: September 29, 2012, 01:43:22 AM »
Had no slipping whatsoever on mine, and I've seen others like mine in the box which are the same. 

Can't say much more than that; I assumed maybe there were different clutch hubs that required different packs.  I don't see why it wouldn't engage the friction material on the inner basket.  It's flat against it with full contact.  When I have the basket apart I'll take some photos.

AgentX

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Re: Clutch plates
« Reply #9 on: October 06, 2012, 02:45:54 AM »
Think I should have the primary apart today or tomorrow--will try to get some pics for you.

AgentX

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Re: Clutch plates
« Reply #10 on: October 07, 2012, 04:51:48 PM »
http://s6.photobucket.com/albums/y218/MikesBikes/?action=view&current=MVI_3157.mp4

Video of the clutch disassembled.  Let me know what you think; maybe what I have is the wrong setup, or something you've never seen.

ace.cafe

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Re: Clutch plates
« Reply #11 on: October 07, 2012, 06:47:33 PM »
Okay, I have a clutch sitting here in my lap right now.
If you look at the lining of the basket with the rivets in it, if that is new, it sits about a half-mm above the level of the circlip around the clutch hub.
It will work if it's all new and unworn, up to the point where the half-mm of wear on the riveted lining gets below the level of the clutch hub circlip, and then the plate won't contact the lining in the clutch basket properly anymore, and there will be a warping action going on when the clutch is clamped on to the plates. There won't be full contact on the basket lining material anymore. The flat plate at the back of the stack there will get warped. You won't be able to adjust your clutch correctly.

I also checked the parts book, and there is nothing in there about any model  using a flat plate at the back of the stack.
Whoever sold you these parts and fed you the line about them being correct was acting in ignorance, or just wanted to sell you what he had.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2012, 07:23:51 PM by ace.cafe »
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Bullet Whisperer

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Re: Clutch plates
« Reply #12 on: October 07, 2012, 09:19:41 PM »
Just to add that it is equally important to have the second dished plate facing inwards, behind the outside friction plate, as a flat one could drop off the end of the centre when the clutch is lifted [if that is the case here]
 B.W.

mrunderhill1975a

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Re: Clutch plates
« Reply #13 on: October 08, 2012, 12:38:16 AM »
The video shows the exact clutch I recieved from Menfieldgear in Sept 2012.  Note the holes drilled into basket...no holes drilled in my original clutch basket that came with my 1999 bullet.  I will check the original clutch center and and see how far the grooves are cut into the clutch center.

I know one thing for sure, if you put the inside plate with the raised center toward the gearbox, it will distroy the clutch.

AgentX

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Re: Clutch plates
« Reply #14 on: October 08, 2012, 01:16:48 AM »
Okay, I have a clutch sitting here in my lap right now.
If you look at the lining of the basket with the rivets in it, if that is new, it sits about a half-mm above the level of the circlip around the clutch hub.
It will work if it's all new and unworn, up to the point where the half-mm of wear on the riveted lining gets below the level of the clutch hub circlip, and then the plate won't contact the lining in the clutch basket properly anymore, and there will be a warping action going on when the clutch is clamped on to the plates. There won't be full contact on the basket lining material anymore. The flat plate at the back of the stack there will get warped. You won't be able to adjust your clutch correctly.

I also checked the parts book, and there is nothing in there about any model  using a flat plate at the back of the stack.
Whoever sold you these parts and fed you the line about them being correct was acting in ignorance, or just wanted to sell you what he had.

Thanks, Tom-

It's easy enough to get a dished plate, I'm sure, so I can do that.  Obviously, you can see from the video, that wear was something I thought about once I looked at the innards more critically.

But I also want to check the depth on the rivets.  I think, if I am recalling correctly, that wear on the friction material would bring the innermost plate into contact with the rivets themselves before it gets to the depth of the iron ring holding the hub to the basket.  That would make the dish of the plate somewhat irrelevant.

Underhill, nice to hear I'm not totally insane...sorry to hear about your experience, though.


AgentX

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Re: Clutch plates
« Reply #15 on: October 08, 2012, 04:14:56 AM »
Yeah, after taking a close look again, the brass rivets would come into contact with the metal plate long before it wore down to the level of the big iron retaining ring.

Are the rivets designed to wear down along with the friction material?  If so, I still have a problem.  If not, this should work fine for the life of the clutch; the rivets will be causing a problem long before the retaining ring does.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2012, 04:19:06 AM by AgentX »

ace.cafe

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Re: Clutch plates
« Reply #16 on: October 08, 2012, 12:17:24 PM »
As long as the friction material is above the line of the circlip, it should work.

Is it the correct part for that application?
No.
The correct part is Part #144461 Clutch Plate Dished.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2012, 12:31:01 PM by ace.cafe »
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AgentX

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Re: Clutch plates
« Reply #17 on: October 08, 2012, 02:44:13 PM »
As long as the friction material is above the line of the circlip, it should work.

Is it the correct part for that application?
No.
The correct part is Part #144461 Clutch Plate Dished.

Now, frankly, I'm more worried about those rivets...
« Last Edit: October 08, 2012, 04:45:02 PM by AgentX »

baird4444

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Re: Clutch plates
« Reply #18 on: October 08, 2012, 03:07:52 PM »
both the 350 and 500 have the dished plates.  memory tells me that the dishes face inward to the center of the clutch.
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AgentX

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Re: Clutch plates
« Reply #19 on: October 08, 2012, 04:43:40 PM »
both the 350 and 500 have the dished plates.  memory tells me that the dishes face inward to the center of the clutch.

That's what everything I've read said, also, which is why I was surprised when I took apart my clutch for the first time.  I promptly brought the whole thing, hub and all, to the dealer. (Not to the parts shop who sold me the clutch which I gave to the "mechanic" which may or may not be the one which is actually in the bike, since I didn't watch him take it out of the box and install it, mind you...)

The dealer's parts shop assured me it was correct and that this was a new style not yet in the parts books.  I saw another clutch come out of the box this way at this parts shop, just like mine and the OP's.

It's India...this could be one of many things and I may never know.  So many people regard mechanics as a matter of voodoo, and reaching accord in a conversation is far more important than getting what might be known elsewhere as "facts" or "truth."  But I don't put it past RE to change a design, either.

Edit:  Kevin or any CMW people reading this, care to comment?  Underhill, did you contact them and what'd they say??  Maybe they'd know about a quiet design change the rest of us have not been privvy to.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2012, 04:46:53 PM by AgentX »

mrunderhill1975a

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Re: Clutch plates
« Reply #20 on: October 09, 2012, 02:55:48 AM »
AgentX,
After I recieved your discription I assumed this was the way the parts came in the box, I have not called Nfieldgear to discuss.  I had a spare dished plate, so I substituted it for the innermost flat plate.
I have attached a photo of the original factory clutch basket.  Note the difference between the original and the replacement (holes drilled in the replacement clutch basket drum, none on the original basket).

Mike,
The innermost "dished plate" should have the raised center fitted toward the mechanic.  I have attached a photo of what happens when the raised center of the innermost dished plate is positioned toward the gearbox. It worked for 100 miles until the rivets ground off and the ball bearings jammed between the basket and clutch center.  I found about 50 of them bouncing around the primary.

« Last Edit: October 09, 2012, 02:59:00 AM by mrunderhill1975a »

ace.cafe

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Re: Clutch plates
« Reply #21 on: October 09, 2012, 12:39:42 PM »
My "theory" on this is that they are running out of spare parts for the Iron Barrel models, and they don't plan to make more spare parts.
So, they are selling off what they have, as best that they can.

There are no 'new designs which haven't yet been put into the parts book' coming out for a bike that was discontinued 4 years ago.
It has been obvious for a couple of years now, that things are drying up for Iron Barrel spares.
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Blltrdr

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Re: Clutch plates
« Reply #23 on: October 09, 2012, 03:20:50 PM »
As I stated before, this ongoing post is probably confusing some members. This is a very old design that has been around much longer than I have. You obviously were sold the wrong parts. The correct parts will not break the bank. I would suggest ordering the correct parts which in turn will probably solve your ongoing issues. The other members that have chimed in have given you very good advise. This is a very easy problem to deal with in my opinion. There are many parts manufacturers and vendors in India. Kevin has stated many times that he is always having to find new vendors because of QC problems or whatnot. I can surely believe that it can be a real crap shoot when buying parts in India. You win some and lose some.

Hopefully you guys can get things squared away and get those issues with your clutch packs sorted out soon.

Good luck, Blltrdr

« Last Edit: October 10, 2012, 05:51:53 AM by Blltrdr »
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AgentX

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Re: Clutch plates
« Reply #24 on: November 12, 2012, 03:49:39 PM »
My "theory" on this is that they are running out of spare parts for the Iron Barrel models, and they don't plan to make more spare parts.
So, they are selling off what they have, as best that they can.

There are no 'new designs which haven't yet been put into the parts book' coming out for a bike that was discontinued 4 years ago.
It has been obvious for a couple of years now, that things are drying up for Iron Barrel spares.

You know, it occurred to me I've never seen the innards of the 350 UCE clutch.  Maybe the new clutch basket and flat inner plate we're seeing in the RE parts bins both in India and the US are a new design for the UCE and is backwards-compatible with the iron barrels?

No idea, but the question still bugs me.

I got a dished inner plate for about $1 and put it in my clutch to no obvious detriment, but again, the brass pins on the basket's friction material would contact the flat inner plate as it wore away before there was any other interference.

ace.cafe

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Re: Clutch plates
« Reply #25 on: November 12, 2012, 04:16:20 PM »
That thought gives me hope about using the 7-plate clutch from the UCE on some Iron Barrel hot-rods.
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AgentX

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Re: Clutch plates
« Reply #26 on: November 12, 2012, 04:35:33 PM »
That thought gives me hope about using the 7-plate clutch from the UCE on some Iron Barrel hot-rods.

You mean you don't want to spring for Hitchcocks 550-GBP belt primary and clutch?  :D

ace.cafe

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Re: Clutch plates
« Reply #27 on: November 12, 2012, 04:45:18 PM »
You mean you don't want to spring for Hitchcocks 550-GBP belt primary and clutch?  :D

I already have it, but I bought it from the guy who actually makes it, and not Hitchcock's.
It's made by Bob Newby Racing in the UK.
It's a great unit, and it's used by all the Brit bike racers.

But I look for solutions that the normal Bullet rider will be more able to accept, in terms of price. Unless, there is no suitable alternative that will work. And that often happens when the power levels get higher than a certain amount. Once you go up to that point, it's a matter of what works, and the price isn't any concern.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2012, 04:47:40 PM by ace.cafe »
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