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Author Topic: Horn and High Beam Indicator Bulb  (Read 279 times)

singhg5

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Horn and High Beam Indicator Bulb
« on: October 19, 2014, 05:08:50 AM »
Recently I noticed something unusual - something that is not visible in day light.

As I pressed horn switch, the high beam indicator blue bulb in the speedometer gauge showed a faint blue color. It is very faint so completely invisible in day light. It is LED bulb. It was reproducible every time.

Three comparative photos of speedometer gauge in dark - all lights off, horn is on, and headlamp on at high beam.

Anyone riding at night seen this ?
« Last Edit: October 19, 2014, 11:41:31 PM by singhg5 »
1970's Jawa /  Yezdi
2006 Honda Nighthawk
2009 Royal Enfield Black G5

heloego

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Re: Horn and High Beam Inidcator Bulb
« Reply #1 on: October 19, 2014, 03:51:05 PM »
Had a similar problem with my left-hand switch module. Determined mine was a bad dimmer switch.
Looks like you have a short between the dimmer switch and your horn switch. Could be moisture, or maybe something crawled into it looking for a warm hidy hole due to cooler temperatures. I'd take a look in your switch module and also check the connector for a possible cross short. Could be nothing more than a spider web across contacts.
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SteveThackery

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Re: Horn and High Beam Inidcator Bulb
« Reply #2 on: October 19, 2014, 08:25:13 PM »
Or, even better, you could just leave it.  It's really cool to have something mysterious to ponder.  They call it "character".
2014 B5, stock apart from disabled auto-decomp.  Also ride a Kawasaki Versys 650 for everyday use.

Previous:
'06 ElectraX (Good bike, had no trouble at all)
'02 500ES (Fully "Hitchcocked" - 535, cams, piston, etc - and still a piece of junk)

gremlin

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Re: Horn and High Beam Indicator Bulb
« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2014, 02:50:58 PM »
OK, so I tend to agree with the spiderweb theory.

HAVING SAID THAT; there is the possibility that this is caused by a bias current generated when the asymmetrical electrical noise generated by the horn is rectified by the diode (LED).

Of course, one way to know would be to disconnect the horn - press the button - and see if the highbeam indicator glows.
1996 Trophy 1200
2011 RE B5
1979 XS11 w/vetter terraplane
1981 XS11 streetfighter
1983 Venture Royale
1982 CB750K
1971 Triumph Trident
1969 CB450
1966 Sears (puch) 250


singhg5

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Re: Horn and High Beam Indicator Bulb
« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2014, 03:17:34 PM »
HAVING SAID THAT; there is the possibility that this is caused by a bias current generated when the asymmetrical electrical noise generated by the horn is rectified by the diode (LED).

Of course, one way to know would be to disconnect the horn - press the button - and see if the highbeam indicator glows.

It is interesting that you wrote this. Looking at the dimness of blue light, I had a gut feeling that this phenomenon is different from usual stuff and it has something to do with the way electricity flow changes.

I do not fully understand these terms 'bias current genrated' 'assymetrical noise generated' by horn. However it is good to read these sentences from someone like you who understands electricity and expresses them in words.

I disconnected one horn wire, pressed horn button - NO blue light. Connected the wire back to horn and disconnected second horn wire and tested again. Still NO blue light.

Then I looked at the wiring diagram which showed that horn is directly connected to the ignition switch but horn switch is connected the negative post of battery. The horn switch is grounding the circuit (photo below).

By disconnecting one horn wire, the horn does not get any power - nor will the horn switch. By disconnecting second horn wire, the horn does not conduct power to horn switch. So the horn switch has no power either way.

Wouldn't this affect the interpretation of result of this test ? Or does it make no difference if horn-switch was connected to power supply and horn was grounding the circuit and the above test was repeated. 

So what next ? How to test 'bias generated current' ?    

PS - Switch housing is clean inside and removed any invisible moisture with a small pressurized air can.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2014, 10:39:42 PM by singhg5 »
1970's Jawa /  Yezdi
2006 Honda Nighthawk
2009 Royal Enfield Black G5

singhg5

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Re: Horn and High Beam Indicator Bulb
« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2014, 04:11:59 PM »
Just got an idea !

How about disconnect horn wires, and connect them to a 12V bulb, press horn switch to complete 'horn' circuit. This will light up the new bulb but hopefully will not produce 'asymmetrical electrical noise' and 'bias generated current'. Then check if the high-beam indicator bulb lights up. 

Electrical engineers out there - does it make sense ?   
« Last Edit: October 22, 2014, 04:39:00 PM by singhg5 »
1970's Jawa /  Yezdi
2006 Honda Nighthawk
2009 Royal Enfield Black G5

Grant Borden

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Re: Horn and High Beam Indicator Bulb
« Reply #6 on: October 23, 2014, 01:14:20 AM »
I have experienced similar symptoms with LED lights on my Moto Guzzi, I was advised to insert a diode in the ground leg of it to fix it, It did fix it. Seems to have something to do with voltage bleed if memory serves me correctly.

Grant
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singhg5

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Re: Horn and High Beam Indicator Bulb
« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2014, 04:09:47 AM »
I have experienced similar symptoms with LED lights on my Moto Guzzi, I was advised to insert a diode in the ground leg of it to fix it, It did fix it.

Seems to have something to do with voltage bleed if memory serves me correctly.

Interesting !  A diode in the ground wire of LED will stop any stray current reaching LED bulb since diode conducts electricity in one direction only. It must be connected with correct orientation / polarity.

The circuit diagram of G5 shows that the ground wire from horn meets ground wire of LED high-beam-indicator-bulb. May be ground wire of horn is passing very very small current to the indicator LED bulb, which then glows extremely dimly.

Perhaps that is referred as 'voltage bleed' ? Though ground wire carries current to negative terminal of battery but some of it 'bleeds' to other connecting wires and reaches LED bulb ?

BTW do you remember how did you insert the diode in the ground wire, I mean how were its connections made to the ground wire. What were diode specs ? Or anything you can add to this.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2014, 05:24:18 AM by singhg5 »
1970's Jawa /  Yezdi
2006 Honda Nighthawk
2009 Royal Enfield Black G5

SteveThackery

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Re: Horn and High Beam Indicator Bulb
« Reply #8 on: October 24, 2014, 06:06:08 AM »
Interesting !  A diode in the ground wire of LED will stop any stray current reaching LED bulb since diode conducts electricity in one direction only. It must be connected with correct orientation / polarity.

Strangely, the LED warning bulb is itself a diode, so I'm not sure what difference adding another one would make.  (Actually you can get bidirectional LED bulbs, but I don't think they are common.  I had to make the one for my flasher warning bulb.)
2014 B5, stock apart from disabled auto-decomp.  Also ride a Kawasaki Versys 650 for everyday use.

Previous:
'06 ElectraX (Good bike, had no trouble at all)
'02 500ES (Fully "Hitchcocked" - 535, cams, piston, etc - and still a piece of junk)

JVS

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Re: Horn and High Beam Indicator Bulb
« Reply #9 on: October 24, 2014, 08:16:58 AM »
@ Singh

This happens on my bike as well. Another thing that happens is when I use the indicators, the headlight also dims just a tad in sync with the indicators flashing  8) It is happening since I bought the bike. The issue(s) are not that serious enough to warrant a checkover  ;) (For me)
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Grant Borden

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Re: Horn and High Beam Indicator Bulb
« Reply #10 on: October 24, 2014, 12:17:03 PM »
singhg5- The diode was a basic axial lead style from Radio Shack (it looks like a low wattage resistor) the cost was about 5 for $0.50 ten years ago. It has been at least 10 years ago but I think the positive lead connected to the LED.

Grant
2014 Royal Enfield C5
2008 Kawasaki Concours14-SOLD
1993 Moto Guzzi Daytona 1000
1980 Vespa P200E-SOLD
1976 Bmw R60/6

singhg5

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Re: Horn and High Beam Indicator Bulb
« Reply #11 on: October 24, 2014, 07:16:34 PM »
Strangely, the LED warning bulb is itself a diode, so I'm not sure what difference adding another one would make.  (Actually you can get bidirectional LED bulbs, but I don't think they are common.  I had to make the one for my flasher warning bulb.)

LED bulbs in my bike are bi-directional and work with AC or DC.

@ Singh

This happens on my bike as well. Another thing that happens is when I use the indicators, the headlight also dims just a tad in sync with the indicators flashing  8) It is happening since I bought the bike. The issue(s) are not that serious enough to warrant a checkover  ;) (For me)

Did you notice this on the OEM incandescent bulbs OR after changing over to LED bulbs ?

Yeah, there is nothing REally wrong with it, just CURIOUS MINDS WANT TO KNOW - If Arizoni doesn't mind me using his phrase  ;D !

singhg5- The diode was a basic axial lead style from Radio Shack (it looks like a low wattage resistor) the cost was about 5 for $0.50 ten years ago. It has been at least 10 years ago but I think the positive lead connected to the LED.

You were 10 years ahead ! We are gradually catching up at a leisurely RE pace ;).
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JVS

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Re: Horn and High Beam Indicator Bulb
« Reply #12 on: October 24, 2014, 11:53:02 PM »
LED bulbs in my bike are bi-directional and work with AC or DC.

Did you notice this on the OEM incandescent bulbs OR after changing over to LED bulbs ?

Yeah, there is nothing REally wrong with it, just CURIOUS MINDS WANT TO KNOW - If Arizoni doesn't mind me using his phrase  ;D !

You were 10 years ahead ! We are gradually catching up at a leisurely RE pace ;).

Yes sir, with LEDs. But is very faint like you mentioned. Even at night one can barely notice it.  :)
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mattsz

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Re: Horn and High Beam Indicator Bulb
« Reply #13 on: Today at 12:01:42 AM »
I may do you one better, Singh!  When turn on the ignition, with the lights off, and blow the horn, my high-beam indicator stays dark, but... my turn signal indicator lights dimly - along with the two "tiger-eye" lights in the nacelle.  All my indicator bulbs and the tiger-eyes are ac/dc LEDs.  When I disconnect the horn, none of these lights up when I press the button...

gremlin

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Re: Horn and High Beam Indicator Bulb
« Reply #14 on: Today at 03:45:45 AM »
electrical noise .....  place a capacitor across the horn.
1996 Trophy 1200
2011 RE B5
1979 XS11 w/vetter terraplane
1981 XS11 streetfighter
1983 Venture Royale
1982 CB750K
1971 Triumph Trident
1969 CB450
1966 Sears (puch) 250