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October 25, 2014, 08:42:36 PM

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Author Topic: C5 strip and restore thread  (Read 2183 times)

SteveThackery

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Re: C5 strip and restore thread
« Reply #105 on: October 23, 2014, 08:27:40 AM »
110 psi is considered good compression on a UCE which is ridiculously low by any other standard.

Yes, but of course it's that low only because of the decompressor.  Or is that the point you were making?
2014 B5, stock apart from disabled auto-decomp.  Also ride a Kawasaki Versys 650 for everyday use.

Previous:
'06 ElectraX (Good bike, had no trouble at all)
'02 500ES (Fully "Hitchcocked" - 535, cams, piston, etc - and still a piece of junk)

SteveThackery

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Re: C5 strip and restore thread
« Reply #106 on: October 23, 2014, 08:29:09 AM »
Seems, then, it's more like a compression reducer - there will always be some compression built up with each revolution, because the piston is still traveling upwards after the decomp closes...

Well, of course it is, otherwise the engine wouldn't start.  It's exactly what you said: a compression reducer to make it easier to turn the engine over on the kickstarter or electric starter.
2014 B5, stock apart from disabled auto-decomp.  Also ride a Kawasaki Versys 650 for everyday use.

Previous:
'06 ElectraX (Good bike, had no trouble at all)
'02 500ES (Fully "Hitchcocked" - 535, cams, piston, etc - and still a piece of junk)

SteveThackery

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Re: C5 strip and restore thread
« Reply #107 on: October 23, 2014, 08:31:29 AM »
Nice Desi!  Cool that someone finally tore it all the way apart and figured it out.  Nice work.  :)

We've talked about this loads of times before.  Lots of us have knobbled the decompressor.  On mine I did it by putting the spring in incorrectly, which has the advantage of leaving the flat part of the pin filling the slot.  All reported previously, and others have posted photos.
2014 B5, stock apart from disabled auto-decomp.  Also ride a Kawasaki Versys 650 for everyday use.

Previous:
'06 ElectraX (Good bike, had no trouble at all)
'02 500ES (Fully "Hitchcocked" - 535, cams, piston, etc - and still a piece of junk)

SteveThackery

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Re: C5 strip and restore thread
« Reply #108 on: October 23, 2014, 08:38:20 AM »
It's primary function is to keep the piston from kicking back and reversing the crankshaft rotation during engine shutdown.

I've heard this assertion repeated many times in this forum.  But who says it is true?  Where does it come from?  If you read the RE workshop manual, it gives other reasons, viz:

* eliminates a manual system that needs periodic servicing
* helps in easy starting of the engine
* reduces the high initial load on the electric starter motor

Note: no mention of crankshaft reversal and sprag protection.  So where did that come from?
2014 B5, stock apart from disabled auto-decomp.  Also ride a Kawasaki Versys 650 for everyday use.

Previous:
'06 ElectraX (Good bike, had no trouble at all)
'02 500ES (Fully "Hitchcocked" - 535, cams, piston, etc - and still a piece of junk)

barenekd

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Re: C5 strip and restore thread
« Reply #109 on: October 23, 2014, 06:04:32 PM »
Quote
It's primary function is to keep the piston from kicking back and reversing the crankshaft rotation during engine shutdown.

It didn't work in that capacity when mine quit and kicked back, wiping out the sprag!
I've never heard it clanking when I shut it down.
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ace.cafe

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Re: C5 strip and restore thread
« Reply #110 on: October 23, 2014, 06:47:47 PM »
I've heard this assertion repeated many times in this forum.  But who says it is true?  Where does it come from?  If you read the RE workshop manual, it gives other reasons, viz:

* eliminates a manual system that needs periodic servicing
* helps in easy starting of the engine
* reduces the high initial load on the electric starter motor

Note: no mention of crankshaft reversal and sprag protection.  So where did that come from?

Well, where shall I start?

Once upon a time...


after 8 years of Bullets breaking sprags from various iterations of unsuccessful designs, it was eventually figured out by owners that there were primarily 2 types of sprag destruction. One was kicking back during starting, and the other was "roll back" of the crank when the engine was shut down, or when it stalled when idling. The kickback was a clear and obvious thing, but it took a little while for people to figure out about the one with stopping the engine. Over the 8 year period, it was found that stopping the bike by opening the decompressor when shutting off the key would essentially eliminate the roll-backs, and save the sprag from those occurrences. Longer sprag life was demonstrated when this technique was employed, and it is still used by most AVL owners to this day, while most(or at least many) Iron Barrel owners have removed the electric starters.

Presumably with the EFI package on the UCE, users no longer have to worry if their jetting will be right as the cold weather moves in, which caused many/most of the kickback sprag deaths. So, all that was left was the roll-backs. A little roller bumper on the cam in the right place would solve all that, and so there it is.
By the way, it also will allow the starter to have an easier time of cranking, with a reduced initial load on the electric motor.
Not too sure about any of the "easier servicing" or the implication of a more reliable system part of the description, based on the number of complaints about this device and its quirks.

Perhaps they didn't want to mention the 8 dismal years of ubiquitous sprag failures that led up to this development, nor call any attention to roll-backs, just in case the system occasionally didn't function correctly, causing a roll-back breakage of the sprag.
In any case, it seems that the prevention or reduction of roll-back against the sprag has been somewhat successful, because if it wasn't, many more of you, if not most all of you would have had broken sprags by now. During the Iron Barrel ES years, and the AVL years(all ES), around this time of year, every year, the forums were filled with despondent owners with broken sprags on kickbacks from the change in temperatures. I know of one guy "Tiny Tim", who I believe went thru 5 sprags, and most of them were from roll-backs unrelated to the change in weather, and mostly happened at stop light stalls.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2014, 08:30:31 PM by ace.cafe »
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mattsz

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Re: C5 strip and restore thread
« Reply #111 on: October 23, 2014, 07:22:37 PM »
Steve - don't believe everything you read in the workshop manual...  ;)

Desi Bike

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Re: C5 strip and restore thread
« Reply #112 on: October 23, 2014, 07:40:46 PM »
"Don't believe everything your read on the internet"
Benjamin Franklin
1780
میں نہیں چاہتا کہ ایک اچار
میں صرف اپنی موٹر سائیکل پر سوار کرنا چاہتے ہیں

mattsz

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Re: C5 strip and restore thread
« Reply #113 on: October 23, 2014, 08:00:43 PM »
Wait a minute - I thought John Ruskin said that...

Desi Bike

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Re: C5 strip and restore thread
« Reply #114 on: October 23, 2014, 08:11:44 PM »
Nah Matt,

It was Benjamin franklin, I read it on teh internets.
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میں صرف اپنی موٹر سائیکل پر سوار کرنا چاہتے ہیں

SteveThackery

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Re: C5 strip and restore thread
« Reply #115 on: October 23, 2014, 08:36:21 PM »

Once upon a time...


I suppose the reasons listed in the workshop manual are probably valid, too, but in addition to the sprag thing.

By the way, the electric starter on mine has no problem at all turning the engine over with no decompressor fitted, which casts some doubt on one of the claims in the manual.
2014 B5, stock apart from disabled auto-decomp.  Also ride a Kawasaki Versys 650 for everyday use.

Previous:
'06 ElectraX (Good bike, had no trouble at all)
'02 500ES (Fully "Hitchcocked" - 535, cams, piston, etc - and still a piece of junk)

Desi Bike

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Re: C5 strip and restore thread
« Reply #116 on: Today at 01:48:45 AM »
I finally got to splitting the cases and was happily surprised to find the main crank bearings to be in great shape. They are stamped "SKF Explorer 251G 305 EC Germany"   They seem to be in excellent shape and will be re-used. The bearing on the other side of the case are just as robust and appear to be serviceable. The rest of the bearings available to the view I have now are all, in my view, in  excellent shape and will be re-used.

Having only rebuilt a Chrysler slant 6 during grade nine in school and a 400m Ford for my nitrous powered MY78 Bronco in the mid 90's for my big ass 4x4 redneck show truck back then, I was surprised at the weight of the crank and flywheel. There is a very small side to side play in the roller bearing on the main connecting rod bearing but not enough to make me want to get a new set up.

The slant 6 Chrysler was a hoot.

The Brick-It Competition of my high school auto shop.

In grade nine auto shop class (1982) the local auto wrecking yard would provide a car engine to each group of 3 students in the auto shop class. I was about 15 years old at the time. Each group had to tear down their engine completely to the bare block and have the teacher confirm that it was completely apart, then reassemble it.  I learned a lot about how stuff worked as a complete mechanism. Once reassembled the entire class would line their engines up on the stands on the last week of school out in the back parking lot of the school, and run them to death. The competition was absolutely fantastic and loud. All the engines would have no coolant or oil in them and running full throttle until the last one running won.

My group cheated.

Me and my mates bought new bearings for the poor slant six that probably began its humdrum life in an early 70`s Chrysler vehicle, and snuck them into the rebuild. Other Álass mates were keen on the big Ford and Chevrolet V`s and a rift of others, but myself and my two classmates knew that the slant six was indestructible as is. Still we cheated, and won by well over half an hour over the 350 + 454 chev`s, 455 old`s, 401 AMC`s, and others including other straight 6`s. It was an underdog win. The group of people I hung with in high school weren't the `cool kids` we were towards the lower end of the `in crowd` so any chance of beating the `cool kids` was a feather in our caps.
« Last Edit: Today at 01:50:53 AM by Desi Bike »
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میں صرف اپنی موٹر سائیکل پر سوار کرنا چاہتے ہیں

Desi Bike

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Re: C5 strip and restore thread
« Reply #117 on: Today at 07:18:23 PM »
So, interesting find of the day...

On the crankshaft flywheel is a dot of thick green paint. My guess is that it was some sort of a "I'm done this one" marking spot during the machining phase of manufacturing of the flywheel assembly.  There was quite a bit of metal shavings stuck in the paint when it was wet. Not just small bits either. Wasn't impressed.
Its no wonder that at the first oil change on these engines, all sorts of interesting gunk gets found like bits of cloth and metal shavings.
« Last Edit: Today at 07:41:45 PM by Desi Bike »
میں نہیں چاہتا کہ ایک اچار
میں صرف اپنی موٹر سائیکل پر سوار کرنا چاہتے ہیں