BradeyI think Scooterbob was saying that there is a more than likely chance that something is out of spec on the Bike Chassis, that is giving you the issues.Mine, and most of the C5's here handle safely alone the recommended speeds range. Bearing in mind it is a light bike and depending on the size and shape of the operator, handling at higher speeds will vary from rider to rider. These Bikes are not marketed and sold as high speed machines, and have a maximum top end of around 85 to 90 I do not think you would ever see an RE as an 80 MPH Canyon runner without serious modification.Get it back to the dealer and explain your issue, and request that he test ride it. Something is out of whack and needs to be fixed. The bike as designed is very stable at 65 MPH.
Here is an interesting link describing motorcycle chassis oscillation. Note that EVERY motorcycle has a resonant chassic frequency!http://www.vf750fd.com/blurbs/vibmode.html
You guys are making me nervous. I am 5'10 and 230# (the fat man). I have not encountered this resonant wobble at any speed, but haven't beat 65mph yet. Is this on all of em?
Thanks Cameron, I hope it works, I'm running out of options. Same experience here with my bike, minus the rain grooves. Starting to see a pattern? India, U.S. Italy. Maybe we all need video riding lessons?
Well put brother sing. When I get this sorted, we are gonna hop on RT 80, 78 or 287, to get to those beutifull country roads ,out west Jersey.
Also note that there are a lot of new dealers now selling this marque ........... I don't know if they really know how to set up an Enfield. I had the perception that they did not participate in any factory training at the mechanic level. So how many bikes are exhibiting these symptoms because the inexperienced dealer does not know what to watch out for upon assembly?
Yea, I also found the same. No weights on mine. pulled the wheels and balanced them, they were off, but not much.Definitely nothing I could feel.An imbalanced wheel would likely start off at speed with a continuesly increasing shudder or vibration.This is not the feeling I'm getting with this issue, It more like the bottom falls out of your stability a high speeds, then stop, then will do it again.With a definite light feel to the front end. Leaving you wondering what the hell was that.It's probably a combination of weight and geometry, both the rider and the bike. That's why guys are feeling it at different speeds, or not at all.
Just wondering, GHG - Have you tried any different rear spring adjustments to load or unload the front end? How's the oil level in the front forks, too? I'm REALLY curious here - YOU are the only one who has, so far, attempted to DEFINE this wobble and tried to quantify it. I cannot, for the life of me, re-create this on the test junk under anywhere NEAR "normal" conditions ..... Sign me "Still Searching"
Yes bob I have. up down and in the middle.I am not with the bike right now, but presently I believe it's set at center. Fork legs are now filled with 20 wt fork oil,(also have tried 10 and 15wt) to the volume in the service manual, again I don't have it with me, but if memory serves me, 200 ml's each? When I drained the stock fork oil , did not measure the volume, but they appeared full, by the amount that came out. Not to get off this train of thought, but while I'm thinking of it.My c-5 was one of the earlier ones over here. I believe you guys worked on it, due to the problem with the trans gears. Did not go to recall,you guys picked it up before the bikes went out.Did a good job it appears by all of the fastener paint. Is it possible that these motors have shims, or a motor plate missing or misaligned?Throttle responce is also a factor with this oscillation, or can induce it. And, no I'm not finger tipping the bars on the highway.Just trying to rule all out.Thanks bob, Dan.
That little trick will sure smooth out a 500 BSA!
Ya know as i was reading bobs reply, that thought popped into my head, the old bsa trick. Sh@! it's wortha try! Bob no I have not tried it,but will now.
Yes bob I have. up down and in the middle.I am not with the bike right now, but presently I believe it's set at center. Fork legs are now filled with 20 wt fork oil,(also have tried 10 and 15wt) to the volume in the service manual.. Is it possible that these motors have shims, or a motor plate missing or misaligned? Throttle responce is also a factor with this oscillation, or can induce it. And, no I'm not finger tipping the bars on the highway.Just trying to rule all out.Thanks bob, Dan.
Ya know as i was reading bobs reply, that thought popped into my head, the old bsa trick. Sh@! it's wortha try! Bob no I have not tried it,but will now. I will let you know.
I am meeting the company's engineer tomorrow to get this issue of instability out of my life. Guys I only know how to ride a motorcycle, but have little or no experience setting one up correctly. Could you please suggest the areas I should ask him to look into. Please respond at the earliest.cheers.
Dan:Looks like the thread is moving forward in a positive direction. To help it along, how about if you list the things you have tried and what was the result. Also list the ideas or any thought that you have not tried yet.Based upon what I have read in the thread I have compiled the list below. By eliminating one by one, you may find the source of problem. Add more as you keep up with your search.1. Rear shock adjustment - Tried, but no improvement. 2. Wheels balanced - Tried, but no improvment.3. Fork oil replaced with different weight - Tried, but no improvement.4. Old BSA trick - Not tried yet.5. Throttle can induce vibrations - If old BSA trick does not fix it, then the interior of the engine may need further investigation. 6. Just to rule out - wheel alignment and typre pressure ??7. Swing arm bush ?8. Steering Head bearings ??
You've gotten more erudite suggestions than I could give, but I was thinking going to the 19" front hoop might improve stability as well. Change the steering geometry.FWIW, my C5 has had no problems. I am routinely up to 70, and have gone higher. I can MAKE it oscillate, but it doesn't do it of it's own accord. Got to be something off in the setup. Good luck!
hmmmm....2-3 I think. It's been awhile since I've experienced it. It self corrects pretty quickly, and I've had it up better than 85mph. It's a twitchy bike, fer sure, but mines not "unstable" like some. Oh...and I just read throught the other thread and saw he has the 19" already (told ya I didn't know much...)
Never been on a Duc....sounds like handful!
LOL!! Too much bike for me. I like riding slow bikes fast, but riding fast bikes fast sounds like a good way for me to get in trouble.
Another Rocker with a C-5?, Thanks man. Have you tried the ton on yours?
WOW!!! EXCELENT!!!. Still trying to disifer what he's saying though? r80rt, I think he means you should not have to put in the washers? What side wheel spacer did he change? To what size? What swing arm Spacer? What the? Oh Geez, i'm not here with my bike! Please someone!!! Bradey your kill'in me, more detail Please!!
The only spacer that's in your swingarm is a tube that goes between the bushings - which are pressed into the swing arm pivot. They aren't selective - and tightening the through bolt SHOULD pull it all together ...... Same with the wheel spacers - no selection here ..... and tightening the spindle should pull it all to "zero" ..... I want to what what voodoo went on there as well ..... I'M thinkin' someone just found a loose bolt - or took apart, scratched their heads and inadvertently put it back together right ..... it's a mystery!
Yes, definatley what I found on the swing arm, no play at all at the pivot, flex was at the rear of the swing arm.
The visiting RE engineer had the entire rear suspension dismantlled, including the rear wheel, hub and the front sprocket. He found the wear pattern on both sprocs equal and hence they were put back as before. He then checked the spacer of the rear wheel and decided to change it, as also the spacer in the swing arm. Refiited everything back and I tested the bike till 130 KPH/81 MPH. It was stable, in fact I did try to weave it at those speed, but it did not oscillate. ;DNow for the tricky part (what the engineer did not know). The attending mechanic unknowingly added few shims on either sides of the rear shockers (upper bolts), cause he thought the gap was too big for the bolts to hold it tightly.If you guys know, the Indian version comes with a seat pre installed which slots with the fastners where the rear suspension goes and its front is bolted the fram below the front seat. My two cents, the removal of the rear seat created a gap at the rear upper bolts which allowed the rear supension space to pull on either sides, creating the oscillation. I also saw the upper bushes of the shockers pulled sideways. Let me know if this theory holds any water.
Bradey:Time for champagne ! Glad to hear you can ride it the way it is supposed to be - Hey, you gaddaa waalaa and Hero Honda, move over for the Bullet is coming at 80 mph ! Do you think it is the replacement of spacer in swing arm that solved the problem or it is the shims on the rear shocks that cured the problem ? If you remove the shims from rear shocks, can you see if the oscillations come back ? Or you don't want to try it and just want to enjoy the smooth ride ?
I find that really odd ..... the section of the swingarm that sticks out past the triangulation of the pivot, shock bottom and shock top is pretty short - and PIG IRON .... it shouldn't flex - even when riding pretty hard. What kind of monkey motion did you get there? Lemme know. I'm QUITE curious at this point ......
Let me clarify, yes the axle plates and shock mount area is pretty Stout.What I mean is the week design from that point back to the pivot tube.It flexes, no gusseting or support, or arch shaped design at the pivot tube. It's basically just 3 pieces of pipe, welded in the shape of Japanese arch, Know what I mean? Like a roof on a pergala or trellis. I think it's too long for that shape, it's longer on the C-5, then on the G-5, so I read. Take one out, and push it in at the axle plates, Like Suzanne simmers does with her machine, and you'll see what I mean.
Champagne for him, not for us quite yet. Still trying to figure out what he means?
You could always put on some struts and run her ridgid to see what tells you.
I like your idea and I quite agree with what scooter bob say's that a little something off trigers those wacky moments and sometimes its perfect.Can anyone just try tightening up the rear axle shaft as much possible and see if that helps.I had the instability before I got the puncture but after putting a new tube and fixing the wheel back, it was gone. I didn't touch anything else except tightening the rear axle way too much. Usually I keep 28Psi at rear which helps a lot but this time it was 32Psi and it behaved far better.What if the the shocks are not vertically centered on the swing arm, can that create problems ?
All your doing is making a week swing arm stiffer. I would be careful about over tightening, and ruining the bearings.
Swap sides with the rear shocks, that might show something too.
These shocks are gas charged I believe, one of your may have sprung a leak.
I just went and a 45 mile ride at varying speeds up to 75mph, on glorious new pavement and the cracked up old stuff with the washer spacers in place. While I had no problems before, it now some how seems better, don't know if it's a change in vibration or what, but it is something I can feel. I thinks it's worth the effort.
I think what he means is that the top schock mount bolt on the Indian C5 from outside to inside goes like this: acorn nut, shock, fat seat bracket, frame.
If you got washers with the inside diameter a little larger than the steel collar inside the rubber bushing you could put them in to take up the slack between the bushing and the shrouds on the side.Not sure on the shocks, I'll check my Snidal manual when I get home.Scott
I stuffed some grease rags between the tire and fender to hold things in place, then removed the fender stay bolts by the passenger pegs on both sides, then removed the stay bolts at the top by the shock towers on both sides, then I lifted the fender and stays as an assembly just high enough to pull the shock bolts out. I put it back in reverse order, no surprises or anything springing, nothing difficult about it. you may have a bent stay?
Ok, anything look wrong to you in these pics?
Those side fender stays are very stiff. So much so that if pushed in either direction,left or right, they will load the frame,and push it in that direction. You can imagine the fender centered between those misaligned stays. It's stored energy, constantly pushing my frame, from the left rear ,clockwise. So while your riding your bike, there's a push to the right, constantly. You don't feel the push, you feel the instability of you trying to keep the bars straight, while on the other side of the pivot, (steering head), the frame is pushing right. In this case I believe it is due to the fender stay mount, where it welded to the frame, not being welded in at the correct angle. Look closely at the pics. Notice the difference between the left and right welded in mounts? The difference is slight at that point, but at the other end of the fender stay its huge. See what I mean?t
Thanks bob, and to all you guys. Don't uncork the bottle just yet. Gotta rig up the bike for a highway test,and right now I'm just beat. Work this weekend, I'll get to her in the next couple of days, I'll report back here,Dan.
I'm uncorkin' the bottle ANYWAY - I spent the day in the shed doing the top end of a Harley-Davis - and getting my cylinder for the WM20 clean enough to toss onto the machine table and bore ...... I'm beat as well .... but the GOOD kind of beat, you know? Let us know when you get that puppy out and up to speed, eh?
I can't see the button to attach photos. Please let me know so that I may upload the images of the old and intermediate designs of the air filter boxes.
Just to keep you guys posted. The instability issue is more serious and widespread than we think. So much so that RE is designing a new swing arm for the C5. They have also altered the hinges on air filter box, to make it less prone to sucking in dust through the hinges, as on the older models. In fact there is a second upgrade in pipeline, which will be a sealed plastic box, fixed inside the box housing the air filter currently.
Another data point for what it's worth:Today was the first day I got to go for a really long ride. I did mostly country highways from 50-75mph and some straight highway at the same speeds, up to 80 once. Loose and tight turns in the country. The bike is stable at all speeds. Over 50 on a straight I can wiggle the bars and the bike will oscillate a few times but settles quickly. It oscillates a little longer at higher speeds. Once in a while over 50 on a straight I'll get the slightest hint of an oscillation in the bars, so small it's really hard to notice. It goes away if I change my lane position.Just being curious, I broke loose one of the bolts on the rear fender strut to see if it was spring loaded, the lower left one near the passenger peg. It moved maybe 1/8", not enough to act like a spring and torque the frame.I also too off the pillion, no difference in handling.Scott
Thanks for that info Bradey, and I suspect it is. Tell you what, If that new swing arm looks anything Like the "GOrilla Brace", Me, Ducatiscotty, and the rest of the boy's who contributed, want a piece of that action. Gotta make you wonder, why a bunch of part time garage monkeys,and failing engineer majors could figure this stuff out, after the bad design, in a relatively short time. Hell, we did this on the side. Sometimes those engineers need to just put those slide rules down, step back, take a look , and just do what makes sense.Dan.
I have to defend the engineering department at RE a little bit. These guys, for the most part, are really good engineers - what they LACK is the "get your hands dirty and MAKE it work" stuff that WE as a group just did. They also don't plan on the little Rajjes on the assembly line doing what they HAVE to do to bikes built. Remember that they are building about 4800 a month - and the demand is still around seven thousand - so the pressure is "ON" to get 'em dome .... no matter what. Yeah - the QC sorta sucks sometimes - and it's because of the brutal production schedule that things get overlooked. The UPSIDE to all this is the bikes ARE better than ever - and because they are getting built faster, the Factory is quickly learning HOW to do this and improve accuracy. All the upgrades that have come about for the C5 prove that. They are no longer just attributing the shortcomings of the bike to the fact that it's an Enfield - they are actually CHANGING things to make the bikes better! That being said - there is NO SUBSTITUTE for bruising your knuckles for 35 years and "runnin' what you brung" to teach you the REAL "in's and outs" of keeping a motorcycle under you safely. Having a burning desire to ride - and no money to do it with will make you clever - or D-E-D .... I chose clever. So far, so good!
Point is simple, r80rt, Cheers to Kevin Mahoney and scooterbob for running a quality company, that is truly looking out for there customer's.
Just a tid bit, you boys ever notice how on some of these bolt heads, not all. It's a pain in the butt to get a wrench or a socket on? Like there's too much plating? Or it's some kind of weird old British size? I tell you what, this bike looks good with the tail section and seat removed. Prime candidate for a nice little bobber! Low profile sprung seat, short little rear fender, side mount tail light,probably get a 120 in there if you loose the chain guard,even makes the stock pipe look good, forgetaboutit!!! I know scooterbob must have something brewing
No rear fender and stays - no chain guard - and the rear pillion seat frame propping up an old BSA bum stop ..... I mean, I thought about it .....
Second point of info:I undid the two mounting bolt for the rear fender stays on the right hand side so it was totally free. Again, about 1/8" movement. No frame spring here.I had the same thoughts: both fenders off, shorty muffler, model A tail light/side plate mount, single round bar end mirror on the right . You could make the current seat lower just by putting thinner padding on and recovering it.Scott
I DO NOT THINK EVERYONE SHOULD START TEARING THERE REAR ENDS OFF TO HAVE A LOOK!
Test ride complete!!.............................. Full details later, got some stuff to do.
Congrats! Now get it back together so you can enjoy the rest of the riding season.Scott
11 pages;Might you do a shortish summary of the problem and the solution? (I'm a little lost...)
So basically waht was needed was to just loosen all the nuts and let things generally fall into place? That kind of makes sense...Thanks
Glad you got it figured out.
I don't get why adding some washers would effect spring rate and rebound. ?
Br. House: "But he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved." Matthew, 24-13.
Hi y'all, been following this with interest and got down on my hands and knees and had a look under my C5. I can see the foot pegs hang off a cantelevered offshoot of the frame. A couple of inches back from them is a cross bolt that holds the side stand. Further back is another cross bolt that holds the exhaust and the engine and the other part of the side stand and centre stand, this bolts up solid.The front one doesn't. Could this be adding to the spring effect at the rear of the frame?I think I'll cut a piece of tube to fill the gap so it will bolt up solid.Thanks for all the good work, Shappers.
In the end - I'm SO glad that it worked out well - and YOU can see how steady the C5 REALLY is ...... like a ROCK! It's a well designed piece of equipment, thanks to the engineers at REM. My hat's off to those guys! DO let me know about the "button up" - bobber or whatever ..... and post a pic or two! Again - CONGRATS on a job well done!
I think what you're experiencing is normal. I did 65 for the first time the other day and a brief wiggle of the bars created an unnerving oscillation. The bike is just not designed for it, and I'm ok with that. If I need to do highway, I'll take another ride.
Your perseverance, acute observation and analysis has resolved this issue of instability of your C5. Also cheers to all who positively contributed to solve this problem. Everyone benefited from this marathon discussion and we have one more happy RE rider.
Hello again,I've had another look and think its purpose might be to stop the foot rests rotating the frame members they are attached to. This definately prompts me to pop a piece of tube in there after undoing both bolts to let the frame settle and then have a careful measure up.I don't think has a direct bearing on the this threads findings but anything to relieve stress must be useful.Cheers, Shappers.
Thank you all guys for sharing your valuable time, thoughts and most importantly efforts to not only take this thread further, but also zero in on the problem and resolve it. I am sure that anybody facing this issue will certainly benefit from this thread, although he may need an old wrench like GHG, SBob and the likes
This is great going for everybody who contributed to the thread. Now its time Kevin takes up this matter with the factory in India, so that the issue is taken care of on the assembly line itself (I know they are working under stress, but turning out top quality trouble free machines will be a wonderful feeling for them).By the way, just noticed a strange thing, the engine is vibrating more ever since the tweeks were carried out to the rear end. Earlier I could do 75 MPH with a pillion and the bike was smooth as a HONDA, but now it starts to vibrate beyond 65 MPHNot only that the top speed has come down from 90 MPH to 83 MPH. Is there something I must look into, or should I do the old BSA trick first
Hi GHG, do my eyes decieve me or does the left hand shock in dsc00727 appear not to be perpendicular. The bit bolted to the swinging arm looks closer to the centre line than the top. I've had a look at mine and it appears to be the same. I'll try and do some careful measurements over the next few days.As an additional observation you may have seen my attempt at raising the gearing using a Honda rear wheel. While doing this I noticed the rear mudguard appered to be out of line so undid both support bars nuts and bolts and straightened it all up with a length of wood. A bit brutal I know but it did the job. Anyhow yesterday was the first time out where I got up to about 75mph true speed and lo and behold NO WEAVING. With the caveat that I was leaning forward with arms more tucked in that usual and a relaxed grip on the bars.Thats what I call a result! And confirms what you all have been doing!Cheers, Shappers.
Yup, I got a couple little scratches on my fork shrouds too. Re-adjusted the fender and all is well.My C5 (2010) has a different style mount than yours GHG. It looks like you have little tabs on the strut that the fender mounts to. My strut has standoffs with tapped holes on the back side, the fender bolts right to it. Must be a later design.Scott
Vibrate? Is it the chassis or the engine?Scott
I'm thinking his chassis is tighter, so he's feeling it more? I have'nt noticed a difference.Like when you have a regulator buzzing, then loosen the union on the vent and it goes away. Tuneing fork effect.
I just put washers at the top of the shocks, didn't do anything else. It seems slightly better, nothing amazing and I doubt it was worth the effort. If I had to have the fender off for some reason I'd put the washers in just because, but I wouldn't make a special effort to do it.
I suppose you could still get misaligned but at least it looks cleaner.
It would turn the fender into the spring instead of the little tabs. With the size of the struts it would be easy to be off but I think you woulc be more likely to notice.I didn't feel any thing when I tighened those bolts but I wasn't looking for anything either. I'll take a look later.Scott
Bob - telling the Prof "I can do 80 with no hands on mine" does absolutely nothing to help him with his problem.
... especially since this topic has been pretty well explored and all the possibilities noted by the great fellows here on the board. Just tryin' to save the man a little RIDING TIME! ...
I agree with scotty and scooterbob, it sounds like the grooved pavement in this case. I get the same problem with my other bikes on the roads that have it. On much heavier bikes to. It's that finely, straight line textured concrete on highways, that sucks. I think they do it so water drains better on hilly highway sections, to prevent icing. Like scotty said, the obvious test would be on flat black top. Also prof mentioned his tire pressure was a little above the recommended setting, how much?
It's riding time I want to get, and be able to hit the freeway slab when needed. But have ALL the possibilities been discussed? I'm not sure, but am working at it.A little twitching I expected. A big wobble I did not. That quickly sucks the fun out of a ride, let me tell you. The grooves are bad for skinny tires. Could that be one reason for the recent photos of wider tires for the C5 that we saw on this forum?Tire pressure? Funny that - which of my 8 gauges is accurate? The AccuGauge showed 26psi front. The newer pencil gauge showed 22. I will take them to the tire shop and ask them to check the gauges. Then I'll know more.
Tire pressure funny? No. Definitely not. prof, try running your tires at 18-22 front, 24-26 rear. You should see a marked improvement. The Avon road riders on your bike have a very stiff, low profile side wall, along with a very rounded tread pattern that damn near goes from rim edge to rim edge. Designed for quick cornering, as in city riding. By lowering your pressures, to what the book says, not the plate at the front of the bike, your increasing your contact patch, and adding some flex in those side walls, giving you better high speed stability. Do the pressures sound too low? Yes, but not on this bike. Light bike, stiff tires.Very good tires in my opinion.They are great handlers. Would wider tires with a higher side wall aspect ratio help with the high speed stuff? Probably. But the trade off would probably be handling.We have found, the people on this forum, scooterbob,and myself,from literally working and testing every aspect of this chassis , all summer and found the pressure listed above to be the best. Could the problem be somewhere else on your bike? Sure. loose swing arm pivot? rims not trued? loose neck bearing? Could be any number of things. BUT it sounds like tire pressure. Give it a shot, it's simple. And we put alot of leg work into it.
A quick data point on instability: Today I drove the car on the same grooved pavement on the interstate that I rode recently on the squirrelly C5. Well, darned if the car started getting a little squirrelly on that same stretch of road. Dry pavement, too. So, I'll test the C5 later on another place where the road is not groovy.
Hi Norm,Was this stretch on I-5? I hit a stretch north of the U-district, but south of Northgate, where our car got quite squirrelly. I like my grooviness to be in my music, not my pavement, thank you!Eamon
Here we have the proper recovery technique for a gentle high speed oscillation. Notice the rider gets out of the saddle to add weight to the front suspension to settle the oscillation. Next, he shifts his weight to the right side of the bike to counter the weave - and then pops back into the saddle to motor off happily!http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Fa0GmdSN4A&NR=1Enjoy!
The I5 most any place has to be the worst road in the US.Bare
I have a 2011 C5. I haven never dealt with any of the high speed issues that folks have been talking about. It's sporting the Avons that come stock with that model of bike and I have done no mods to the suspension etc. The ONLY time things have ever been weird at all was a few months after getting the bike and I took it out on I-44 and had her up in the high 70's and I hit a stretch of the highway that had those wonderful rain grooves. There was a slight oscillation/wobble. Now at this point with over 5000 on the clock I get none. And that is with having her out on 44 doing 80 as well. This bike is also my FIRST motorcycle and I have found it to be nothing but nimble and easy to ride, very stable and extremely forgiving. Throwing on a free flowing exhaust and air filter did a lot to make the power that the bike's engine produces much more useful. So yeah, I guess I get a bit confused when I hear folks talking about all kinds of stability issues with their C5s