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Author Topic: Battery cable replacement  (Read 2184 times)

mattsz

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Battery cable replacement
« on: February 03, 2014, 12:05:57 AM »
Welcome to Ducatti Scotty's battery re-wire thread.

Is it rude to start someone else's thread?  ;D

Ok, seriously... I know that he's got plans to replace his battery cables, which is also in my near future, so if all goes according to my evil plan, this is where he'll tell us about his efforts.  :P

Or, maybe not - anyway...

I've broken two negative cable end terminals, one the OEM and one the "heavier-duty" NAPA replacement.  Each time my terminal ends broke, I had to cut the crimps off and strip the wires further, shortening them each time.  So, since I plan to replace the battery with an AGM-type anyway, I'd like to replace the cables so I can lengthen and re-lead them.

First of all, I'd like to choose a battery that ideally is as close to the correct capacity required, but preferably physically just a bit smaller than the OEM one, since it's such a tight squeeze.  This may be a topic for another thread, but if anyone has any suggestions, I'm all ears…

As for the cables, I'm thinking of making them long enough so I can mount the terminals, whatever format they take, and lead the cables down along the sides of the battery.  I'd like to firmly anchor them to the battery, and have the cables loop away from the battery gradually and let the flexibility of the stranded copper cables absorb the vibrations that broke my previous terminal ends.

Things to which I'm giving consideration:
  • If the cables are going to be longer than OEM, should they be a heavier gauge?
  • Over time, will vibration cause the copper cables to fatigue and fail just as the cable ends did?  If so, maybe I should just consider the cable ends to be a weak link and plan on periodic replacement (but not once a year, surely?).
  • Does it make sense to consider adding bus bars for connecting the battery, charger connection and other accessory connections, rather than trying to cram all those connections directly onto the battery terminals under that tight cover?

More anon...

Blltrdr

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Re: Battery cable replacement
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2014, 12:19:19 AM »
I use a 14 ga ground with eyelet terminals. Don't use a bus bar and have a charger connector connected. no problems. I also chucked the battery box and built a custom battery box to go in the LH toolbox.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2014, 12:41:39 AM by Blltrdr »
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ERC

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Re: Battery cable replacement
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2014, 12:37:55 AM »
Wrap the longer wires around a phillips and make a coil. Then run it to the battery. That'll keep them from breaking.   ERC.
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Ducati Scotty

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Re: Battery cable replacement
« Reply #3 on: February 10, 2014, 04:49:29 AM »
Not many pics but I'll tell you all the details:

First things first: remove the battery so nothing arcs and you don't get hurt.  If you can remove the seat and tank it makes everything really easy, though probably isn't necessary.  Save any rubber boots that are on battery lines and reuse them on your new ones.

And some advice.  There are three battery lines.  Remove one line at a time, make the new one, and replace it.  Test to make sure the bike still starts.  Move on to the next one.  If you remove them all at once you might, say, crosswire the positive and negetive terminals at the starter, fry your solenoid and brand new $100 battery.  Ask me how I know ;)

The stock RE wires are crap.  This is not specific to the RE, almost all stock moto battery lines are crap.  The RE positive lines are 8 gauge (barely adequate really) and they're wrapped in two layers of stiff insulation which makes them look bigger than they are and also makes them a real bear to bend.  The negative lead is just a 10 gauge wire.  That's really anemic. 

Materials:
-10' black 6ga. ultra-flexible battery wire, part #6948K91.  It cost me about $25 delivered and was plenty.  I could probably make another set from what's left.  This is a nice burly wire with very fine conductors and a rubbery flexible insulator.  It should be really easy to bend wherever you want/need to and will carry way more current than stock.
-Napa Auto battery terminals, part #784572.  These are 6ga. and have a 1/4" hole.  $4 at any Napa.  I've used these for a long time now.  The only time they've failed is from bending back and forth too many times from the battery going in and out too many times.
-Heat shrink tubing.  I got some clear stuff at my local Ace Hardware that has a heat activated adhesive on the inside, so it stays put once you shrink it down. $5 for 6", and worth it!
-Electrical solder and a torch.

There are three cables to make.
-Positive battery to starter solenoid.
-Negatve battery to starter motor ground.
-Solenoid to starter positive terminal.

Some REs have a solenoid with the wires permanently attached, covered under some potting compound.  If you have one of these you'll need to replace it.  Get something like this:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/230691411498?lpid=82
Get one that's for a 500cc or larger bike.  This is what I got as a replacement from CMW when my original died.  Throw away the green plastic piece, you won't need it. 

The easiest cable is the solenoid to starter positive terminal.  This just has two terminal ends with heat shrink.  Remove it from the bike.  Measure and cut a new line the same length.  Remove the rubber boot that covers the starter terminal and slide it to the middle of the new line.  Now put the ends on.

Use a razor blade and cut off about 3/8" of the insulation, just enough so that when the wire is inserted in the cable end it comes up just flush with the collar but doesn't stick out.  Crip it closed.  I used a big pair of Vice Grips for this.  Repeat for the other end.

I soldered the ends but just a little bit.  Some people will tell you not to do this.  If the lin gets hot, the solder can melt out and drip on things.  You don't want to use tons of solder.  I put just enough solder on the cut end to anchor it to the termninal.  If you put on so much that it flows out the other end it will make the line rigid there, it won't flex, and it will break off.  Just enouch to fill the top, get it nice and hot with a torch so it flows.  Then I tap it off to get rid of all excess.  Then heat again to make it flow and make sure it's not a cold solder joint.  Repeat for the other end and set aside.  Let it cool completely before you put on the heat shrink tubing.

If you can find the adhesive heat shrink, use it.  It's pricey, about $5 for 6" but worth every penny.  It's really thick and heavy and once heated you can see liquid adhesive flow.  It stays put and the thickness helps distribute any bening at the terminal across a wider area so your line is less likely to break off.  I cut it long enough to cover the entire metal collar and about 1/2" to 3/4" past that down the line.  Hold in place, heat and shrink.  Let cool.  Now slide the boot back to the end.  A little Windex makes this easy.

The other two lines are similar but each also incorporates a small tap line off the main line to feed the electrical system.  There is a quick disconnect for these feeds.  SAVE IT AND REUSE IT!!!!  Do not replace it with a bullet connector.  Bullet connectors suck.  They corrode and get loose very easily.  These quick disconnects are much better, more secure, and much less likely to corrode or fall out and leave you stranded. 

Cut the small line as close to the old main cable as possible.  Strip about 1/2" - 3/4" of the insulation and wrap it around the stripped section of the new main line.  Crimp and solder the end as before.  Tug the small line and make sure it's secure.  With the heat shrink, make sure it covers at least 1/2" past the metal collar.  This is important for these small tap lines since you don't want to be yanking at the line near the terminal.  The small line will fatigue and break, leaving the bike dead.  The heat shrink distributes the load.

For the negative line I made one the same length as the original.  For the positive I made one longer because I'm routing it a different way.  On my C5 it was running right along the backbone of the frame.  That has some problems.  It gives you almost no room to maneuver and get it attached to the battery, or to push it back in place as you insert the battery.  I routed it lower, behind the battery bracket.  The line is a little smaller than the original (since it doesn't have two crappy layers of insulation) so this was easy.  I figure I'll route it up from there to the positive terminal.  This gives me an easier angle of approach and more slacke to slide the battery in and out but I'll have to be careful I don't leave too much slack.  If there's too much slack it will swing around and either chafe through the insulation or break off at the terminal.

If you're wiring routes don't match mine, done't worry.  I'm pretty sure not two REs you run across will have the exact same wire routing.  Again, this is not unique to RE, most motos are like this.  I'll try to get some pics and add them to the post.

On batteries, I got the MotoBatt AGM for about $100 and was really happy with it.  It has threaded holes that you're supposed to bolt these little terminals to, then bolt the wires to the terminals.  I tossed the terminals and just bolted the lines to the threaded holes in the battery.  Since they are recessed it was really easy to bolt up and get the battery in place.  As mentioned above, I fried that battery through my own stupidity.  I wasn't really up for another $100 so I looked around and found Chrome Battery for $42 shipped.  It's an AGM but with more common terminals.  It's the 14L-A2, exact same size as the original.  It will probably be a hassle to get in but the terminals are a bit different and that should be easier.

For attaching more leads for chargers, etc.  The positive line has always been the the biggest pain for me because of where it is and how little room there is to get anything in there.  I plan to bolt my charger line to the solenoid instead.  It's the same connection, but I don't have to wrestle with it every time I put the battery in and out.  Unfortunately the negative lead doesn't go anywhere so convenient.  It's got a bit more room behind the battery, but I may add a 6" long 12 ga. line to the terminal and attach to that.  That should be a bit more convenient since I don't have to deal with more than one ring terminal going to the post.

Scott
« Last Edit: February 10, 2014, 07:17:25 AM by Ducati Scotty »

Ducati Scotty

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Re: Battery cable replacement
« Reply #4 on: February 10, 2014, 07:11:25 AM »
Cables.  McMaster Carr on the left, stock center and right.


New positive battery cable end.  There's a little red tape under the heat shrink, just a touch of solder to hold it together.


Positive battery cable with side tap at the solenoid.


Negative cable with side tap.  Note how the heat shrink holds the smaller line so it doesn't break off.


The Chrome Battery L14-A2 AGM in place on the C5.  The printed spec said it was the exact same size as stock but in reality it's a smidge shorter and narrower.  Some bending of the battery case, tighter straps, and maybe a paint stirring stick wedged in there should keep it secure.  It was easier to get in, but that's probably partly due to the tank and seat being removed.


Scott

mattsz

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Re: Battery cable replacement
« Reply #5 on: February 10, 2014, 11:45:52 AM »
Wow, I should start threads for other people more often!

Thank you Scott; that was above and beyond...

I just ordered a similar battery to yours - I haven't received it yet, but it appears in the web photos to have the ability to attach the terminals at what I'm going to call the front (side with the label) as well as at the top.  I wonder if side attachment would be easier on the terminal ends?  But maybe there isn't room behind there, between the battery and the frame; I can't remember.

Because I've had to cut off and replace the negative terminal crimps multiple times, the negative "tap line" (ECU feed) is getting very short, so I might need to replace it as well...

mattsz

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Re: Battery cable replacement
« Reply #6 on: February 10, 2014, 12:37:50 PM »
I've looked for "quick disconnect" fittings, and only found those "spade" type ones:



If I want to reuse my current locking "tap line" connector, is it easy to remove and "uncrimp" the wire from the fitting, and substitute a new wire?  Or should I look at buying a new fitting?  What are they called, and where should I look for them?

High On Octane

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Re: Battery cable replacement
« Reply #7 on: February 10, 2014, 12:38:59 PM »
Mattz - Search bullet terminals or spade terminal to find "quick connectors".

Scotty - Well done!  Nice work.

Scottie J
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mattsz

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Re: Battery cable replacement
« Reply #8 on: February 10, 2014, 12:55:36 PM »
Scottie-

You'd think that bullet terminals would be just the thing!  Sorry...

Searches for bullet and spade terminals return those items, which isn't what I want - I've got piles of those types.  I'm looking for the locking type that's currently used...

High On Octane

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Re: Battery cable replacement
« Reply #9 on: February 10, 2014, 01:04:11 PM »
Scottie-

You'd think that bullet terminals would be just the thing!  Sorry...

Searches for bullet and spade terminals return those items, which isn't what I want - I've got piles of those types.  I'm looking for the locking type that's currently used...

Do you have a pic of an old one?  I guess I'm confused as to what style you're looking for.  There are literally hundreds.
Scottie J
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mattsz

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Re: Battery cable replacement
« Reply #10 on: February 10, 2014, 02:27:26 PM »
Sorry I don't have a better pic, but here is a shot from the RE manual.  It's a square profile, locking connector...

Ducati Scotty

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Re: Battery cable replacement
« Reply #11 on: February 10, 2014, 03:26:53 PM »
Mattsz, this battery allows connection to both top and front.  Top just seems easier to me.  Go with what works for you. 

My negative side tap was really short too.  I soldered 6" of 14ga. to it.  Oregon Motorcycle Parts makes lots of click connectors, but they only go as small as two conductors.  If you need to replace it a spade is preferable to a bullet. 

Scott

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Re: Battery cable replacement
« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2014, 07:19:58 PM »
Oh, and I'm a C5 and the picture in your post looks like a G5.  Obviously different.

Scott

mattsz

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Re: Battery cable replacement
« Reply #13 on: February 11, 2014, 12:35:21 AM »
Scott - I'll look at it when I do the rewire and installation.  My B5 does have a different battery cover than your C5, so an obvious different lead may make itself apparent.

As you say, in a pinch I can simply lengthen the end of the wire I've been shortening due to cable terminal breakage.  Any soldering I do to that wire can be isolated from vibration, and will not be subject to solder-melting heating from high current... and I can just keep using the same connector.

BTW, that pic was a "stock" photo grab, simply to show Scottie the connector I was describing - I added the pink arrow...

Still interested in potential replacement, since another one broke its locking tab and I had to wire it together.  Can't remember which one right now, though!  :(

Interesting, my wiring diagram doesn't show any single-wire connectors, in the EFI ground circuit or anywhere else.  But, it also shows two spark plugs, so who's counting?  ;)

mattsz

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Re: Battery cable replacement
« Reply #14 on: February 13, 2014, 12:50:26 AM »
Some REs have a solenoid with the wires permanently attached, covered under some potting compound.  If you have one of these you'll need to replace it.  Get something like this:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/230691411498?lpid=82
Get one that's for a 500cc or larger bike.  This is what I got as a replacement from CMW when my original died.  Throw away the green plastic piece, you won't need it.

The plot thickens...

I, of course, have the permanent "potted" solenoid.  So now I have to think about replacing it.

I'm not sure what to do.  My wiring diagram shows four wires - One from the battery, one to the starter, and two (blue/white and black) from the starter switch - makes sense...






My actual solenoid has five wires - the two heavy cables from the battery and to the starter, and three thin wires: solid blue, white and red...



I don't know what the extra wire does, so I'm not sure about how to replace the solenoid with a different model.  Also, the OEM solenoid bolts securely under the seat with two bolts; any advice about attaching a replacement solenoid?

 >:(

BTW, remember I mentioned a connector with a broken lock?  There it is, the two-wire one with the blue and white wires... I've got a wire-tie wrapped around the connector to keep it together...

Ducati Scotty

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Re: Battery cable replacement
« Reply #15 on: February 13, 2014, 01:42:34 AM »
Not to worry. The small red line is the single side tap that feeds positive electrical energy to the whole system. Follow it I'm sure you'll find it goes right to the fuse block.

Scott

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Re: Battery cable replacement
« Reply #16 on: February 13, 2014, 04:45:00 AM »
One wire goes to clutch switch, according to Starting and Charging Circuit diagram.
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Ducati Scotty

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Re: Battery cable replacement
« Reply #17 on: February 13, 2014, 08:35:29 AM »
Hmmmm.... probably the clutch/starter interlock.  I don't remember that on mine, I'll have to take a look.

Scott

mattsz

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Re: Battery cable replacement
« Reply #18 on: February 13, 2014, 10:04:45 AM »
One wire goes to clutch switch, according to Starting and Charging Circuit diagram.

Singhg5 - yes, you are correct!  I was mistaken... In my diagram, the blue/white wire goes to the starter switch, the black to the clutch switch.  As I mentioned, however, my wires are different - in color, and in quantity!

Scott, maybe once I had a replacement in my hands it would be obvious, but all I see in the photo of the ebay link you sent is two large lugs, which I assume take the big cables.  The smaller connections are in the "green plastic piece" which you said isn't needed.  So, what to do with the three small wires?

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Re: Battery cable replacement
« Reply #19 on: February 13, 2014, 11:24:48 PM »
This is just a guess but I think one of supplies power from the starter button.
One of them is attached to the clutch switch and one of them is attached to the neutral switch on the engine.

That would allow either the clutch switch or the neutral switch to provide the ground to complete the circuit when the starter button is pushed.

If the new solonoid has two small terminals, the wire feeding the power would go to one of them and both of the two grounding wires would go to the other terminal.
Jim
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1999 Miata 10th Anniversary

mattsz

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Re: Battery cable replacement
« Reply #20 on: February 14, 2014, 12:56:30 AM »
This is just a guess but I think one of supplies power from the starter button.
One of them is attached to the clutch switch and one of them is attached to the neutral switch on the engine.

That would allow either the clutch switch or the neutral switch to provide the ground to complete the circuit when the starter button is pushed.

That could be, Jim.  My wiring diagram, however, shows a wire from the solenoid to the clutch switch, but the neutral switch wire comes from the clutch switch.  The clutch pulled in provides a path to ground.  The clutch left out instead provides a path to... the neutral switch.  The bike in neutral then provides the path to ground.

This, according to the diagram - which is proving not accurate for my bike...  :(

Maybe I'll see if Tim at CMW has a replacement solenoid that's meant to fit, and work, on my bike.  Meanwhile, since I now have new cable coming and no solenoid to connect it to, if anyone has any bright ideas...

Ducati Scotty

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Re: Battery cable replacement
« Reply #21 on: February 14, 2014, 12:59:26 AM »
Ask Tim.  The one I put a link to above is exactly what I got from CMW when it was replaced under warranty EXCEPT it also came with two little metal ears that bolted to the stock location.  It came with about 12 3" lengths of wires with connectors on them.  I have no idea what those were supposed to be used for.

Scott

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Re: Battery cable replacement
« Reply #22 on: February 14, 2014, 04:11:07 AM »
If I look at the 3 wiring diagrams I've downloaded from various places I see only two wires that would activate the starter solenoid.  One goes to the right hand switches and one goes to the clutch switch.  The only place the neutral wire is noted, it disappears into the speedometer.  There are no wires shown going from the starter solenoid to the speedometer.

That's why I don't have much faith in the diagrams. :(
Jim
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1999 Miata 10th Anniversary

singhg5

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Re: Battery cable replacement
« Reply #23 on: February 14, 2014, 04:19:09 AM »
On my G5, the starter solenoid has 4 wires -

i)    Battery to Solenoid
ii)    Solenoid to Starter Motor
iii) and iv)  Two smaller wires for solenoid activation - one of which comes from starter button and the other from clutch switch (based on circuit diagram, because I have not traced them all the way manually).

Mattsz - Is your solenoid different with 5 wires ? I don't fully comprehend what you got.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2014, 04:23:37 AM by singhg5 »
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mattsz

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Re: Battery cable replacement
« Reply #24 on: February 28, 2014, 05:20:02 PM »
Still trying to sort out my solenoid issue...

Singhg5 - I've got a 2011 B5, and the solenoid has 5 wires, permanently sealed of course.  See my photo above - I've got the same paired small wires you have (one blue and one white), but I've got an additional small red wire diving into the glue as well.  My solenoid is mounted aft of the battery, beneath the seat near the roll-over sensor, whereas it appears yours is mounted in front of the battery, beneath the fuel line.

The RE guys seem to be saying that the only solenoid they provide has the sealed wires, which is what I don't want.  So, I'm back to trying to figure out how my solenoid is different from the wiring diagram and finding a functional replacement.  I'm looking at tracing the wiring to sort myself out, but until it gets above 20℉ in my garage, it's just going to have to wait.

Has anyone else replaced one of these 5-wire solenoids with something that works?

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Re: Battery cable replacement
« Reply #25 on: February 28, 2014, 05:45:28 PM »
You can dig out the glue on the solenoid and see what's going on in there.  I did it out of curiosity.  It's a tough job but doable.

Scott

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Re: Battery cable replacement
« Reply #26 on: February 28, 2014, 11:26:45 PM »
Scott - did you find that you could dig it out enough to change the two big battery cables if you wanted to?  ;)

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Re: Battery cable replacement
« Reply #27 on: March 01, 2014, 12:14:58 AM »
Yes, I think so.  If you dig away the potting compund carefully and don't damage anything then, as I recall, you'll see the bolt and quick disconnect connections on the relay.  You should be able to reuse it if you want.  Mine was dead by the time I did that so there was no point.  I just cut the lines, added new ends, and put in the new relay.
 
If you're going to do it I'd recommend you disconnect all the lines labelling as you go, then take the relay and attached lines to a bench to dig out the compound.  It will take a while and I can't imagine it would be fun to do while sitting next to the bike with everything attached.

Scott

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Re: Battery cable replacement
« Reply #28 on: March 01, 2014, 12:43:08 AM »
Worth consideration, anyway.  What did you dig with?  I wonder if a dremel tool would just heat the stuff and get gunked up?

Meanwhile, I got another email from Tim, who said that for my bike, if I don't want the molded wires, then my only option is a "universal unit" - he attached photos and it looks a lot like the ebay special you pointed us to earlier, Scott.  His universal unit has instructions which only refer to connecting two small wires to the "motorcycle's starting circuit".  This still leaves me scratching my head over my 5-wire arrangement...

Ducati Scotty

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Re: Battery cable replacement
« Reply #29 on: March 01, 2014, 01:37:40 AM »
I used wire cutters, pliers, screwdrivers and the like to crack/chip it all away. 

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Re: Battery cable replacement
« Reply #30 on: March 01, 2014, 01:54:57 PM »
I take it you are digging out the epoxy for the sole purpose of seeing what wire goes to what terminal on the relay?   ???

Scottie J
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mattsz

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Re: Battery cable replacement
« Reply #31 on: March 01, 2014, 05:00:21 PM »
Scottie-

Sorta, but I also haven't found anyone to corroborate my 5 wire solenoid story.  I kind of doubt that I have the only one - unless I'm just missing something obvious and the red wire in question somehow doesn't in fact go to the solenoid - but I have the pictures to prove it!

If I can't find out how to connect my 5 wires to a 4-wire solenoid, then I might just consider digging out the bedding junk and trying to put my new battery cables on the original solenoid - 'cause I ain't using the factory cables again, I'm tired of them breaking on the road!

All this could be answered, or at least made a little less murky, if it would just warm up enough for me to get out in the garage and do some proper wire tracing - but I'm a sissy deep down...

Ducati Scotty

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Re: Battery cable replacement
« Reply #32 on: March 01, 2014, 05:10:19 PM »
Mattsz, I'm pretty sure the small red wire is the path from the battery to the whole system.  You can check this by disconnecting the square connector. I bet the piece attached to the solenoid reads 12v and if you turn the key absolutely nothing will work because you've detached the main power line.  I also bet there will be no continuity between the other two small lines and the red one.  The red one connects to the positive battery cable.

Scott

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Re: Battery cable replacement
« Reply #33 on: March 01, 2014, 05:12:22 PM »
Mattsz, I'm pretty sure the small red wire is the path from the battery to the whole system.  You can check this by disconnecting the square connector. I bet the piece attached to the solenoid reads 12v and if you turn the key absolutely nothing will work because you've detached the main power line.  I also bet there will be no continuity between the other two small lines and the red one.  The red one connects to the positive battery cable.

Scott

+1
Scottie J
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1958 Enfield/Indian Trailblazer

mattsz

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Re: Battery cable replacement
« Reply #34 on: March 01, 2014, 05:25:57 PM »
Sounds good to me, Scott, but that doesn't tell me how to connect the 5 wires going into my OEM solenoid to an aftermarket solenoid with 4 connections - does it?  ???

I have the feeling I'm missing something painfully obvious here...

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Re: Battery cable replacement
« Reply #35 on: March 01, 2014, 05:31:50 PM »
Mattz - I have the wiring diagram for the starter and charging circuit.  I was trying to post it but photobucket is down for maintenance.  I will get it posted as soon as possible.  What I CAN tell you now is that the red wire is in fact the main lead coming from the battery.  The blue/white and black wire go directly from the switch to the relay.  One wire (unsure of color) goes directly from the relay to the starter.  And then there is the mystery 5th wire........  I'm working on it.  ;)

Scottie J

EDIT:
  Looking back I see the wiring diagram was already posted a while ago.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2014, 05:34:41 PM by High On Octane »
Scottie J
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1958 Enfield/Indian Trailblazer

Ducati Scotty

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Re: Battery cable replacement
« Reply #36 on: March 01, 2014, 05:41:08 PM »
Yes it does!   The small red wire connects to the red battery lead.  The other big lead goes to the starter, the two small wires go to the solenoid trigger.   

Scott
« Last Edit: March 01, 2014, 09:51:44 PM by Ducati Scotty »

High On Octane

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Re: Battery cable replacement
« Reply #37 on: March 01, 2014, 06:07:23 PM »
I can't find anything on a 5 wire RE but I did find this generic 5 wire diagram.  I have a feeling that the "extra" red wire with the plug or fusible link on it either goes to the clutch switch, neutral switch or side stand switch.



Scottie J
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gashousegorilla

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Re: Battery cable replacement
« Reply #38 on: March 02, 2014, 12:41:38 AM »
  I'm thinking....the extra red wire on the relay , is just a convenient junction point to grab power from the line from the battery. Instead of connecting directly TO the battery.  It MAY feed your fusees... through the ignition switch... It's a common thing to do on older bikes.

 I'm thinking.... The Blue wire is the hot from the starter button, and the white wire is ground, Probably from the clutch or neutral switch.  These wires energize the coil in the relay and pulls in the contacts , connecting the battery to the starter.

 
« Last Edit: March 02, 2014, 01:29:04 AM by gashousegorilla »
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mattsz

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Re: Battery cable replacement
« Reply #39 on: March 02, 2014, 11:02:18 PM »
Scotty (Ducati) - I see what you're saying now.  If your assumption is correct, it should be easy to verify with my VOM.  If that small red wire has continuity with the battery lead... then I can do an end run around the 4 connection points on the universal unit.  The small red wire AND the big red wire go to the battery...

Scottie (J) - aside from the color differences between the diagram and my bike, it's looking more like that red wire is just grabbing +12v for something else altogether.  Again, some quality time with my wiring will confirm this - or possibly some questionable time with tools to rip apart the old potted solenoid.  For starters, I'm hoping to do the former, but we've got record cold temps ahead...  >:(

GHG - perfectly plausible.  According to my diagram, there should be a blue/white wire (actually plain blue?) bringing +12v through the "kill switch" and starter button to the solenoid; a black wire (actually white?) leaving the solenoid and heading to ground through the neutral switch, or the clutch switch, which bypasses the neutral switch and goes right to ground.  And of course, the big battery/starter cables.  The small red wire serves no function in the starter circuit, that I can see...

I think I'll just stop fretting about this until I get a chance to do some wire-diving...

mattsz

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Re: Battery cable replacement
« Reply #40 on: March 06, 2014, 06:41:34 PM »
Well, it reached 23℉ in my garage, so I spent a couple of minutes by the bike.  The small red wire has continuity with the main battery cable, so it's very possible that it's just a +12v feed and I don't have to worry about exactly where it goes inside there.

The white wire matches the functionality of the diagram's black clutch switch wire - when looking for continuity between the white relay wire and ground, I get none until the clutch is pulled in, or the tranny is in neutral - or both.  I didn't test for continuity between the blue relay wire and the positive battery terminal (through, as the diagram shows, the ignition switch, kill switch and starter switch) since I didn't have the key with me.

So on the surface of it, it appears that a "universally wired" motorcycle solenoid will do in this case, and the small red wire disappearing into the sealed OEM solenoid is a red herring.  I'll have to double check where it leads and decide where to connect it - probably at the solenoid, just like I'm guessing it is now!

gashousegorilla

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Re: Battery cable replacement
« Reply #41 on: March 06, 2014, 07:41:44 PM »
  Unplug the red wire from the relay.... Then turn on the key. If everything on the bike is dead, it's likely supplying power to everthing through the ignition switch.
An thaibhsí atá rattling ag an doras agus tá sé an diabhal sa chathaoir.

mattsz

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Re: Battery cable replacement
« Reply #42 on: March 06, 2014, 08:34:26 PM »
Its a pretty skinny wire - but it could be doing so.  I'll add that idea to my electrical plans for when I get things going again - my new battery is in the basement!

gashousegorilla

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Re: Battery cable replacement
« Reply #43 on: March 06, 2014, 09:39:52 PM »
Its a pretty skinny wire - but it could be doing so.


 And we are surprised by that ,why ?   ???  ;)    What I'm thinking is...... That red wire is "fused".  It supplies the main fuse.... from the main fuse, to the ignition switch.... from the ignition switch to the other two fuses for the other two circuits.

 
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mattsz

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Re: Battery cable replacement
« Reply #44 on: March 07, 2014, 12:08:46 PM »
And we are surprised by that ,why ?   ???  ;)

Well, I dunno!  No reason, other than I'm surprised that everything on the bike but the starter circuit would be running off that one small wire - all the power draw, and the charging.  Don't the electrons bump into each other as they cross?

As I look at the diagram, yet again, I see now that indeed there is only one wire feeding the whole system, and that's gotta be it.  It shows all the fuses "before" the ignition switch, but they're there.

Seems like this must be the answer - took awhile, huh?  I know it's a lot of dope slaps, but think of the exercise you guys have been getting!



Here's another question, while we're on the subject of the UCE wiring diagram - do any of you guys have one you can read?  Mine shows power coming (through that little red wire!) right from the battery, through a fuse and into a switched terminal of the "power relay".  The energized relay sends that power on to the fuel pump relay and the EFI system.  This relay's coil gets power from the battery through the ignition switch and the "kill" switch.  The negative end of the "power relay" coil feeds a switched terminal of a second relay, labeled "PG" (Power Ground?).

It's this second relay that has me flummoxed.  The other switched "PG" terminal leads to ground, so the "power relay" won't energize unless the "PG" relay is also energized - I get this.  The "PG" relay coil gets power from the same source as the "power relay", but the negative end of its coil leads to ground (the same ground from the previous sentence), through the side stand switch.

This is what I don't get - why the second relay?  As far as I can see, the only thing it's doing is protecting the side stand switch from is the power relay's energizing current, which would be identical to the the "PG" relay's energizing current anyway, so it's redundant.  Isn't it?

Also - according to the diagram, simply disconnecting the side stand switch would prevent the "PG" relay's coil path from reaching ground, so the "power relay" would never be energized - and as we know, this isn't the case.

I know, this is wordy and makes no sense without the diagram to look at - but if anybody does, would you care to try to enlighten me on what's with this double-relay circuitry?

Edit: Here's a snippet below...

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Re: Battery cable replacement
« Reply #45 on: March 07, 2014, 12:24:35 PM »
To answer your last question, my guess is that they used an extra relay so they could use smaller diameter wire in the wire harness itself.  On circuits that actually power something, it is common to use smaller wire (because it's more affordable and easier to wire into a big harness) and run it into a relay, and then using a bigger single wire from the power feed output of the relay.  That's what I'm thinking anyways.

Scottie J
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mattsz

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Re: Battery cable replacement
« Reply #46 on: March 07, 2014, 01:47:27 PM »
I agree with you Scottie, but that's the strange part - that second relay seems to have the same shit going through it as the first one.  Same juice going through both coils, and the "power" feed of the second relay is also carrying the "smaller wire" coil current from the first - it looks unnecessary...

gashousegorilla

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Re: Battery cable replacement
« Reply #47 on: March 07, 2014, 02:17:39 PM »
Well, I dunno!  No reason, other than I'm surprised that everything on the bike but the starter circuit would be running off that one small wire - all the power draw, and the charging.  Don't the electrons bump into each other as they cross?

As I look at the diagram, yet again, I see now that indeed there is only one wire feeding the whole system, and that's gotta be it.  It shows all the fuses "before" the ignition switch, but they're there.

Seems like this must be the answer - took awhile, huh?  I know it's a lot of dope slaps, but think of the exercise you guys have been getting!



  BINGO !   IF you find you have a 20 amp main fuse now, like my C-5 was.   It SHOULD be 12 ga wire.  It's not really.... or SHOULD not be feeding the whole bike.  It should distribute through the other fuses. Those fuses should be lower rated fuses.  Take a look at your circuit breaker box at home for an idea.  Same concept.

  As far as the "Schematic" goes.  It's not a true point to point, connection to connection, wire to wire... wiring diagram. It's an engineers drawing.... a line diagram, or a highbreed of a wiring diagram and a line diagram.  Stupid I know, but that's how they do it sometimes.  There are different ways to wire things, and get the same result. It's drawn with the assumption that the reader has an understanding of electrical theory.... as I was taught as a young pup in school and wondered the same thing.  For a tech, a true wiring diagram is MUCH better.



 And BTW Matt.  You do not have to wire fused circuits by distributing through a main fuse......  An individual added lighting circuit comes to mind...  BUT, if you are wiring a whole bike, or a whole house for that matter.  It is better to do so. Safer....more efficient...less and smaller wire can be used... easier to trouble shoot and isolate when there is a problem and such.   AND if you do wire to distribute, you CAN'T use the same size fuses in all the circuits  that you would as on the MAIN fuse.  If you do, the other fuses act like bridges or jumpers and everything WILL go through THAT wire.  And not until there is a 20 A draw will the main fuse pop......
« Last Edit: March 07, 2014, 04:59:33 PM by gashousegorilla »
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mattsz

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Re: Battery cable replacement
« Reply #48 on: March 08, 2014, 03:27:16 PM »
I'd wondered about that diagram's fuses - the main lead from the battery goes through a 20a fuse, and the rectifier lead branches off that and through another 20a fuse.  If you have a problem in your charging circuit, which fuse is going to blow?

As for the diagram in general, this is what they're selling.  One of these winters, when I'm truly and properly bored, I'll probably do a real wire-for-wire diagram, just for fun.  And by the time it's done, I'll be so familiar with the wiring that I won't every have to look at it again...  ;)

gashousegorilla

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Re: Battery cable replacement
« Reply #49 on: March 08, 2014, 04:50:18 PM »
I'd wondered about that diagram's fuses - the main lead from the battery goes through a 20a fuse, and the rectifier lead branches off that and through another 20a fuse.  If you have a problem in your charging circuit, which fuse is going to blow?

As for the diagram in general, this is what they're selling.  One of these winters, when I'm truly and properly bored, I'll probably do a real wire-for-wire diagram, just for fun.  And by the time it's done, I'll be so familiar with the wiring that I won't every have to look at it again...  ;)

  The main will blow, at least as shown in the drawing. And remember, wire size or gauge AND length determines fuse size. And with effectivly one 20 A fuse !? ..... You can see why they upgraded things with the newer bikes.  They have a true main fuse, and smaller fused branch circuits.

http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z242/flenke/12VDC_wire_gauge_chart.jpg


 If your interested and into it..... some examples of wire diagrams, some better then others. And if you look close enough, even with the same model bike .  Suttle changes are made from one model year to the next.  But they are drawn that way and be clearly seen. MOST issues with bikes that I run into are Electrical problems. WHY..... such little attention has been paid to our's !?  New diagrams should come out every year......

 

 

  http://www.cmsnl.com/classic-honda-fansite/wiring_diagrams.php
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mattsz

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Re: Battery cable replacement
« Reply #50 on: March 10, 2014, 01:05:54 PM »
Ducati Scotty-

That starter solenoid link waaaay back near the top shows an ebay item for about $10.  I've been looking around the motorcycle sites, and the price seems to be around $50, which is what the RE guys quoted me.  Are these generic $10 deals really ok?  None of them show any attachment points, how do they mount?

mattsz

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Re: Battery cable replacement
« Reply #51 on: March 16, 2014, 10:13:36 PM »
For $21, I bought two:



I tested them and they both work, i.e. battery voltage across the coil contacts produces a solid "click" and continuity across the big connections.  Now to re-wire...

Bonus: four 20-amp fuses...  8)  I wonder if they're the same size as the RE fuses?

mattsz

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Re: Battery cable replacement
« Reply #52 on: April 07, 2014, 09:57:33 PM »
Basically done - a big improvement in wire leading!

One question: the negative battery cable runs right to one of the allen-head bolts that holds the starter to the casing.  That bolt has some sort of orange "stuff" on it - is that sealant to keep water out of the casing?  Should I replace it?

Ducati Scotty

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Re: Battery cable replacement
« Reply #53 on: April 08, 2014, 01:00:24 AM »
It's LocTite of some sort.  Whatever type you have on hand should do.

Scott

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Re: Battery cable replacement
« Reply #54 on: April 08, 2014, 01:19:30 AM »
Roger - thanks!!

mattsz

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Re: Battery cable replacement
« Reply #55 on: October 30, 2014, 12:24:32 AM »
I was asked about my solenoid installation, which was part of my battery cable replacement, so I thought I'd add the info here, to complete the picture.

Here's the OEM installation for reference:



The small "extra" red wire was indeed a take-off from the positive battery terminal.  I decided to crimp it into the new positive battery cable at the solenoid, which lives under the seat of my 2011 B5.  The following pic is the new installation; the arrow shows the connector which has the battery cable and the small red wire crimped.



Sorry it's not shown well, but that small red wire is in there.

The heavier wire that crosses the top of the solenoid is the negative wire of my Battery Tender lead.  The terminal end with the red collar is the positive wire of the Battery Tender lead.  It's kind of hiding the + battery cable, which loops down and back up to the + battery terminal.  The Solenoid terminal without the arrow is the positive lead which runs to the starter.  The two small pink spade connectors are the leads (small blue and small white wire) which activate the solenoid through the handlebar starter switch.

For installation, I cut the old wires which were bedded into the OEM solenoid (getting rid of them all anyway) and removed it from the bike - two bolts hold it to the frame by a U-shaped bracket which is lightly tack-welded to the solenoid.  I clamped the solenoid lightly into a vice, and using a flat screwdriver as a lever, I tapped the U-bracket and it popped right off the solenoid.

The new solenoid fits the U-bracket almost perfectly.  Since I didn't have a way of tacking them together, I wrapped a couple layers of friction tape around the body of the new solenoid (you can see it in the pic above), and wedged it into the bracket.  I checked out some copper pipe hanger (the metal strips with holes that plumbers use to hang pipe from basement overheads) and found the holes lined up nicely, so I cut a short section to hold it in place from the top.  I wedged a strip of compressible closed-cell foam in there for good gripping pressure.  Another bad pic:


ryanof

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Re: Battery cable replacement
« Reply #56 on: October 30, 2014, 02:03:12 AM »
" The two small pink spade connectors are the leads (small blue and small white wire) which activate the solenoid through the handlebar starter switch."

Matt.  Does it matter which side the blue or white wires connect to?

mattsz

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Re: Battery cable replacement
« Reply #57 on: October 30, 2014, 10:45:09 AM »
" The two small pink spade connectors are the leads (small blue and small white wire) which activate the solenoid through the handlebar starter switch."

Matt.  Does it matter which side the blue or white wires connect to?

There are no polarity indications on the solenoid, and I don't remember trying to sort out which starter switch wire was which, so I'm going to say it doesn't matter.  If I'm wrong, I'm sure someone will chime in quick!

ryanof

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Re: Battery cable replacement
« Reply #58 on: November 03, 2014, 04:50:01 PM »
There are no polarity indications on the solenoid, and I don't remember trying to sort out which starter switch wire was which, so I'm going to say it doesn't matter.  If I'm wrong, I'm sure someone will chime in quick!

I'm about to replace my solenoid and thanks to you guys I have everything figured out with the exception of the two spade connectors on top of the new solenoid.  The two thin white and blue wires connect to the spade connectors but on which side?  Can anyone help?

ryanof

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Re: Battery cable replacement
« Reply #59 on: November 03, 2014, 05:56:10 PM »
Bump

mattsz

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Re: Battery cable replacement
« Reply #60 on: November 03, 2014, 06:15:24 PM »
Ryan - here's what I would do...

If your solenoid has no indications of connection polarity, I'd connect something that indicates continuity (VOM? Test light with some electricity to power it?) across the big starter leads.  It should indicate no continuity, i.e. the solenoid is not activated, when you've got no power across the small leads.

Then, I'd take a wire lead off each battery terminal and quickly connect them across the small solenoid leads - just take a guess on the polarity.  If the polarity matters, and you guess wrong, I would expect that the solenoid would not create a connection across the big terminals.  It may not even make a noise.  If you're quick, you shouldn't damage anything.  Switch the leads from the battery, and try again.  One of them should produce the desired result: a solid "click" and a connection between the big terminals.  Connect the wires to match that configuration.  Or, if polarity doesn't matter, they both might activate the solenoid.

Is there a chance you'll ruin the solenoid?  I suppose so.  But if I had to sort it out "right now", that's what I'd do.

Anyone know for certain about this question?

Arizoni

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Re: Battery cable replacement
« Reply #61 on: November 04, 2014, 01:28:06 AM »
The two small wires that connect to the starter motor solenoid can be hooked up either way.  It doesn't matter.

One of the small wires supplies power from the start switch on the handlebars.  The other small wire goes to the clutch switch located on the clutch lever.  If the clutch lever is pulled in, this switch connects the solenoid wire to ground completing the circuit and actuating the solenoid coil.  If the clutch is not pulled in, the small wire continues to the neutral switch.  If the motorcycle is in neutral, this switch, which is also connected to ground closes completing the circuit actuating the solenoid coil.

If both the clutch switch and the neutral switch are open (clutch is not pulled in and neutral is not engaged or the neutral switch doesn't recognize the transmission is in neutral), there is no ground connection for the solenoid coil and it will not operate.
Jim
2011 G5 Deluxe
1999 Miata 10th Anniversary

ryanof

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Re: Battery cable replacement
« Reply #62 on: November 07, 2014, 05:04:20 PM »
With all your help I got it done.  Bike starts up real nice.  I am adding some pics of the old solenoid.  On my 2011 B5 solenoid the white small wire lines up on the positive red cable.

singhg5

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Re: Battery cable replacement
« Reply #63 on: November 07, 2014, 05:46:38 PM »
With all your help I got it done.  Bike starts up real nice.  I am adding some pics of the old solenoid.  On my 2011 B5 solenoid the white small wire lines up on the positive red cable.

Great pictures showing wire configuration inside a five-wire solenoid. Thanks.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2014, 06:05:02 PM by singhg5 »
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